The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: arobwk on February 20, 2022, 12:55:11 am

Title: Dealing with Russia
Post by: arobwk on February 20, 2022, 12:55:11 am
I thought the attached (linked) article was such an interesting take on the Russia/Ukraine situation and diplomatic moves that I just had to post it:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-russia-diplomacy-ukraine/622075/?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: arobwk on February 20, 2022, 01:46:20 am
And I would further offer this:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/defending-ukraine/622063/
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: chrismahon on February 20, 2022, 08:53:09 am
From what I have seen on the news here, this particular area of Ukraine has always been disputed. I think it has assumed some strategic importance now because of oil and gas?


They interviewed an old dear living in the zone who said " I don't know what all the fuss is about? I've always considered myself Russian, so why am I now in Ukraine?"
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: doganjo on February 20, 2022, 12:03:34 pm
la la la la la la

My head is firmly in the sand. Donlt want to know if I'm about to be blown to smithereens
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 20, 2022, 09:48:32 pm
From what I have seen on the news here, this particular area of Ukraine has always been disputed. I think it has assumed some strategic importance now because of oil and gas?


They interviewed an old dear living in the zone who said " I don't know what all the fuss is about? I've always considered myself Russian, so why am I now in Ukraine?"
Throughout the history (last 1000 years) there was no such thing as Ukraine. Well at least not as an independent country. Most of western Ukraine was region of Poland - Polish and Ukrainian speaking.
Parts of Eastern Ukraine was part of Russian Empire - Russian speaking.
Crimea and surrounding regions were Crimean Khanate - Turkic speaking.
After WW2 this was all made into Ukrainian Soviet Republic - part of the USSR.  In early 1990s it became independent Republic of Ukraine.
In 2014 the Crimean Peninsula, historically home of the Crimean Tatars (turkic speaking Muslims) was annexed by Russia. However most of residents of Crimea actually wanted it - most of them are ethnic Russians whose ancestors came their from Russia proper in 1930s - moved their by bolsheviks to repopulate lands stolen from Tatars who were forced to move to Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan in 1945. Crimean Tatars, who were allowed to return to Crimean in 1970s (I.e. After 30 years in desserts of Central Asia!) Were obviously wary of being part of Russia again.

Eastern Ukraine is similar story. Most people there are ethnic Russians who speak Russian as their first language - many of whom want to be part of Russia.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 20, 2022, 09:50:24 pm
They interviewed an old dear living in the zone who said " I don't know what all the fuss is about? I've always considered myself Russian, so why am I now in Ukraine?"
Exactly what I meant.

Western Ukraine, on the other hand is mostly inhabited by Ukrainians (Or Ruthenians) as well as many Poles. In fact Polish is still one of the official languages of Ukraine (and Belarus and Lithuania)
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: arobwk on February 26, 2022, 06:33:36 pm
Thanks for your informative posts @macgro7 - very interesting.  European history has never been very familiar to me:  I blame my old history teacher (I won't mention her name as she might just still be alive, but her teaching method was cr*p and so I thought history was cr*p/boring).  My more recent interest in European history has been further stimulated by your remarks and I've been doing rather more research already!
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: chrismahon on February 27, 2022, 11:13:11 am
There seems to be a rush of bans on Russian athletes competing in European events on French TV at the moment. The French volleyball team won't play, but they lost to Russia last time anyway. Norway won't have Russian competitors, but the example they showed was Russia winning again.


In the meantime I am of the opinion that supplying arms to Ukraine is just extending the bloodshed and destruction there and is a very bad move indeed. Germany should know better, as 60% of their gas is imported from Russia. France is also supplying arms and accepts that, because they import 17% of their gas, the retail price here is likely to rise by 50%, so that will see it doubled in 12 months. I know the UK imports about half, but don't know where it comes from?


That was a very informative post @macgro7 . Like Arowbwk, my knowledge of European history is terrible. There have been several news reports here showing the recent evolution of the Russian borders. Appears it used to divide what is now Turkey, so what happens there?
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: doganjo on February 27, 2022, 12:30:21 pm
There seems to be a rush of bans on Russian athletes competing in European events on French TV at the moment. The French volleyball team won't play, but they lost to Russia last time anyway. Norway won't have Russian competitors, but the example they showed was Russia winning again.

In the meantime I am of the opinion that supplying arms to Ukraine is just extending the bloodshed and destruction there and is a very bad move indeed. Germany should know better, as 60% of their gas is imported from Russia. France is also supplying arms and accepts that, because they import 17% of their gas, the retail price here is likely to rise by 50%, so that will see it doubled in 12 months. I know the UK imports about half, but don't know where it comes from?

That was a very informative post @macgro7 . Like Arowbwk, my knowledge of European history is terrible. There have been several news reports here showing the recent evolution of the Russian borders. Appears it used to divide what is now Turkey, so what happens there?

Russia winning again. - With the aid of drugs?

Price rises - many people are prepared to accept a lifestyle change to save lives. As I am.

A young soldier blew up a bridge to delay the Russians - and died doing it

Putin wants to get back what has been lost from USSR - and Ukraine is extremely rich in minerals - win win for him.

Let's hope he can be removed
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Rosemary on February 27, 2022, 12:51:18 pm
On the plus side, Scotland get a bye in the World Cup playoff semifinals and we, the people, may yet own Chelsea FC  :coat:
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: SallyintNorth on February 27, 2022, 02:07:25 pm
There seems to be a rush of bans on Russian athletes competing in European events on French TV at the moment. The French volleyball team won't play, but they lost to Russia last time anyway. Norway won't have Russian competitors, but the example they showed was Russia winning again.

With the aid of drugs?

In the meantime I am of the opinion that supplying arms to Ukraine is just extending the bloodshed and destruction there and is a very bad move indeed. Germany should know better, as 60% of their gas is imported from Russia. France is also supplying arms and accepts that, because they import 17% of their gas, the retail price here is likely to rise by 50%, so that will see it doubled in 12 months. I know the UK imports about half, but don't know where it comes from?

And they are prepared to accept a lifestyle change to save lives. As I am


That was a very informative post @macgro7 . Like Arowbwk, my knowledge of European history is terrible. There have been several news reports here showing the recent evolution of the Russian borders. Appears it used to divide what is now Turkey, so what happens there?

Putin wants to get back what ahs been lost from USSR - and Ukraine is extremely rich in minerals - win win fro him.  Let's hope he can be removed

Please fix the formatting, @doganjo, I can't read your comments at all
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: doganjo on February 27, 2022, 02:27:40 pm
I'll try but not sure how that's why I put it in emboldened red
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: chrismahon on February 27, 2022, 06:49:33 pm
Well, whist you get the formatting legible @doganjo we've filled the van and car tanks and are now trying to get a heating oil delivery. No panics at the pumps yet here, but based on history that will happen. Prices will only go up, so buy now if you can.


This is a terrible event, but I can't help thinking something sinister is going on behind the scenes. French film footage showed the Ukrainian government burning huge piles of documents. Question is why? What are they hiding? I can't help feeling that both Ukraine and Russia know something that neither want to share. Perhaps I've seen 'Conspiracy Theory' too many times?
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 27, 2022, 10:28:18 pm
The other day a litre of petrol cost around 1 in Poland. The same day at 3pm the prices went up to around 1.30
In half a day!!!

Liz Truss said "she will support the Britons who want to fight in Ukraine"  ???
I'm sorry but how is this different to Britons wanting to fight in Syria or other places? They were classed as terrorists while people going to Ukraine are supposed to be heroes???
Why would anyone want to go and fight in someone else's war anyway? If you get killed or hurt, what is it for???
Ridiculous
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Fleecewife on February 27, 2022, 11:06:18 pm
There have always been mercenaries who fight in every war for money.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Penninehillbilly on February 27, 2022, 11:59:31 pm
Well, whist you get the formatting legible @doganjo we've filled the van and car tanks and are now trying to get a heating oil delivery. No panics at the pumps yet here, but based on history that will happen. Prices will only go up, so buy now if you can.


This is a terrible event, but I can't help thinking something sinister is going on behind the scenes. French film footage showed the Ukrainian government burning huge piles of documents. Question is why? What are they hiding? I can't help feeling that both Ukraine and Russia know something that neither want to share. Perhaps I've seen 'Conspiracy Theory' too many times?
Maybe burning things they don't want Russia to get their hands on?
I think megalomaniac Putin has gone way too far, hopefully one of his own will see to him.


Does anyone look at his eyes when he's on TV or in pictures. I've thought for a long time they are scary.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: NickRJ on February 28, 2022, 09:23:30 am
One thing I would add I am afraid is that a lot of Brits, I am not pointing the finger at any commentators here but based on my general experience, have a very poor grasp of the way borders have shifted in Europe. It isn't entirely surprising as Britain, to a large extent, is an island with very definite borders. Europe on the other hand has suffered wars/seen treaties which have resulted in the borders shifting THROUGHOUT history, right back to when nations as we knew them didn't exist and princes and tribal leaders invaded and swapped territories almost as a form of currency. It is impossible to define any people, particularly in Europe as Russian/Ukranian/Polish/German etc. based on where they live. For example my late mother-in-law was Polish, born and raised by a Polish family who were living in pre-war Poland. They were forcibly ejected from their homes by the Russian army, let's not forget Stalin was allied to Hitler at the start of the war as he wanted to take over Poland, and both my in-laws families were taken/marched to Siberia. The area my mother in laws family had been ejected from is now in Bielorus. My wife's grandfathers on both her mother and fathers sides were believed to have been assassinated under Stalins orders along with all other Polish officers. My Wife's father was born and raised by a Polish family living in an area of what was Poland but which is now in Ukraine. For our part, that is my wife and I, we live in a part of Poland which, before the war, was Germany. In fact we live in an old (1812) German farm house. But before it was Germany it was Poland before that, the land having been gifted as a dowry when a Polish princess was married off to a German prince some 700 years or so prior to it becoming Germany. Complicated or what, how far do we go back before we start saying what lump of land belongs to anyone based on historical reference, at which point do we draw the line! In fact Poland itself failed to exist as a country in its own right three times having been savaged by wars and treaties, three times in history resulting in the partition of the country. If anyone wants to learn more about European history I would suggest that Norman Davies is an author to look out for. He is an authority on the subject.

As an aside we know a very lovely Russian lady in the UK. She is finding life VERY difficult at the moment and experiencing a lot of negativity. That is sad. She has lived in England for decades, runs a small business and is married to a Brit but somehow some people around her are venting there displeasure with the situation on her. I find it astonishing that someone can be subject to such treatment solely as a result of the country which issued their birth certificate. She is an ordinary, well meaning soul who does not support the war, any war and yet is suffering. As for whether Brits choose to fight for Ukraine, they would presumably be doing so because of a deep rooted belief in democracy and people having a choice to an INDEPENDANT homeland. The Poles for instance have fought tooth and nail through history to gain their right to have a place to call their own. Democracy is very different from totalitarianism and not being able to get rid of your national leaders after a set term if you don't like what they are doing is not something I am sure many Brits would be particularly happy about. Want to criticise the government and risk a poisoned projectile in your leg delivered by a government sponsored assassin or find your Ryanair flight diverted to be arrested by a disgruntled president who doesn't like what you write about him!

Sorry, began to rant a bit. I want this all to be over as soon as. There is a definite feeling of anxiety in the air here too and like everybody we just want to get on with life.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 28, 2022, 10:42:43 am
Supposedly Slavic people came somewhere from Persia - around 2-3 thousand years ago. Should we now claim that Iran is Polish territory?  :roflanim:
Some Polish Jews started saying exactly the same thing about their own history - they claimed that an area which they haven't been to for 2000 years suddenly belongs to them  :thinking:

I have known some people from the generation that has been through WW2. A lady, who was 9 years old when they war started, her father was army officer so they were quite well off. They lived in Podole - now Ukraine. Her father was sent to Kazakhstan by Russians (but survived unlike many other Polish officers arrested by Russians). Herself, her mother and brother were later sent to Kazakhstan (part of USSR), later they escaped to Iran and then India (still British India at the time).
There was a camp of 5000 Polish refugees in India - in 1947 they all came, with the British to the UK. That's where she met her father again. After 8 or 9 years or so.
Just for comparison - Iran hosted 200,000 Polish refugees during the war! So did SYRIA - My great-grandfathers cousin was there. Serving Polish Home Army (joined at 16). After the war many of those people were not allowed to come back to Poland - as the new communist government wouldn't want any aristocracy or nobility (most of those who were sent to Kazakhstan by Russians were army officers, most of whom came from the old nobility.

Poland didn't want to help any refugees from Syria - they forgot how Syrians looked after their own People.

My greatuncle ended up staying in London after the war. He was only able to contact his family 30 years later - 1970s! Untill then everyone thought he was dead. He visited Poland with his English wife and children.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: NickRJ on February 28, 2022, 11:15:51 am
Exactly the point I am making, if we use history as a reference where do you draw the line. For the record my father in law was 13 when the war broke out and managed to escape Siberia with his brother and join the Polish second army under General Berling. He fought from the east to the west suffering a life changing bullet wound during the heavy combat in Berlin on the last day of the war. Sadly he died seven years ago. I have a huge respect for the suffering my in-laws endured. I know of the pain felt by families. My honest belief is that if Churchill, Roosevelt, Truman and Atlee had been firmer with Stalin at initially Yalta and then Potsdam at the end of the war the world wouldn't be in this mess now.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 28, 2022, 12:42:21 pm
Speaking of Yalta Conference.  Yalta is a small town in Crimea. Since Russians conquered Crimea it has been a holiday resort for wealthy Russians.
Crimea was mostly inhabited by Turkic speaking Muslim Tatars.
In 1945 were ALL sent away to Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. Russian peasants were sent  to resettle Crimea, so it looks like its always been part of Russia, when the foreign politicians arrive for the Yalta Cinference (Churchill and Roosevelt).
Stalin literally sent 4 million people, the entire nation to live in another country just so the place looks better in the eyes of foreigners.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: macgro7 on February 28, 2022, 12:45:53 pm
One thing I would add I am afraid is that a lot of Brits, I am not pointing the finger at any commentators here but based on my general experience, have a very poor grasp of the way borders have shifted in Europe.
Would you believe if I told you that Poland shared a border with Sweden and Turkey back in the 17th century???
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Glencairn on February 28, 2022, 07:59:35 pm
we've filled the van and car tanks and are now trying to get a heating oil delivery. No panics at the pumps yet here, but based on history that will happen. Prices will only go up, so buy now if you can.

We got a heating oil delivery slightly sooner than usual because we thought the price may get a bit silly in the coming months and it would be best to pay the prices now before the increase. I think we were 62p+vat / Litre.

Not much we can do about the cars, mine has a silly 40L tank, I try and fill it up when I'm approaching 1/3rd to a 1/4 left. Last week I paid 1.50.9/L
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: doganjo on March 06, 2022, 10:51:53 am
If you have gas central heating turn the thermostat down a degree (or more if you can take it) - that reduces consumption considerably so less money goes to Russia

Mine is down to about 17c now and it's still about twice what it is outside
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Penninehillbilly on March 06, 2022, 12:28:10 pm
If you have gas central heating turn the thermostat down a degree (or more if you can take it) - that reduces consumption considerably so less money goes to Russia

Mine is down to about 17c now and it's still about twice what it is outside
Looking at my chart, 18c is bottom of ideal, 15c is suggesting turning your heating up, so 17c sounds fine.
We only have heating in the evening, but wood fired CH and rayburn.
I put a bodywarmer on or an old sweatshirt I cut the tatty arms off, its great and snug. But generally on the move till evening. Also got some boot type slippers and wear a beanie when really cold.
But houses do need heat as well don't they? Or you can start having problems with damp.
I would hate to give that monster a penny if I have a choice.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: chrismahon on March 06, 2022, 02:02:53 pm
People have probably turned their gas down as low as possible already, because of the increased cost. Our oil fired boiler is off (pending confirmation next week of a delivery) and we are running at 15C with a log fire in the afternoon to warm it for evening. But condensation could be a major problem for some people. In our case we run a dehumidifier in the bathroom which is in the centre of the building. Had some friends with a fairly new build years ago- they turned their heating down and the back wall (exterior) of their fitted wardrobes went black with mould. Not sure what happened to the clothes in it?
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: landroverroy on March 06, 2022, 02:57:53 pm
There have always been mercenaries who fight in every war for money.


I think that's possibly a bit unfair. Many will support a cause merely because they believe in it. I used to be in the Territorial Army and know of plenty of people (mainly young men) who would volunteer to fight in any war, from the 6 day war in Israel onwards, if they strongly believed in what they were fighting for. Alright they got paid the same as regular soldiers. But that's not a lot compared to the chance of being seriously injured or killed, and certainly nothing like what a true mercenary gets paid for fighting for whoever will foot the bill. There have always been those who will fight for what they believe is a just cause - look at Hemingway and others who fought for no reward in the Spanish Civil War. It's basically a young man thing, as the danger gives them an adrenaline rush, they get a feeling of satisfaction to fight for what they think is a just cause, and finally and sadly because they think they are invincible.
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: doganjo on March 06, 2022, 05:17:31 pm
My son was here this afternoon, and obvious discussion evolved - he says that the UK only gets about 3% of its energy from Russia as opposed to Germany's 35%, so it's not quite so bad as i thought - but I'm still watching what I use
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: Fleecewife on March 07, 2022, 01:35:47 am
 I agree but I was referring to true mercenaries for whom fighting in wars is a job, not being judgemental, it's what they do @landroverroy
My son went off the dangers of being in the army the day his son was born  :D
Title: Re: Dealing with Russia
Post by: chrismahon on March 07, 2022, 10:08:49 am
Three things on the news here today, whilst we wait to see how much our heating oil has gone up. The price of European gas has risen by 60%. The price of a barrel of oil is nearly at the 2008 record. The chemists here have sold out of Iodine tablets, which are used to counter the effects of radiation exposure; we wouldn't be buying any of those tablets anyway. All pretty depressing when you are living on a UK pension (the average in France is 2 times as much and collected at 62).