[captainmark]

Morning all,

Mud worse than ever this year (big horses!). In front of concrete apron to stables and walkways - hoping if affordable to do something and avoid same again next winter.  Plan is to dig down maybe 6-8" (in spring before the clay turns to the texture of concrete!), lay a membrane and fill with aggregate of some description. Crushed concrete probably most economical, but tends to have undesirables within!  Any experience of road planings?  do they melt in sun? / any other suggestions please? Needs ideally to be permeable and sweepable-ish (not a word I know but will I am sure make sense!).  Hope to create a fall but probably easier said than done. Can't afford concrete and more danger of planning getting wind of it.......... thinking with aggregate can let the grass grow to disguise!  (have looked at the different grass grids and not conifident any will do what we need)

Any thoughts please?  many thanks, Mark

[SallyintNorth]

it's common practise for farms in the north of England to lay road planings in gateways in summer.  By winter they are invisible but do reduce the muddiness.

Personally I hate them in gateways used frequently by cattle - the mud inevitably reappears and the planing stones then get in between the cows' cleats.  They are a practical solution where the area is infrequently used by cattle.

If you have cattle who will be using the area frequently, then stabilising the stones with hexagonal cow track seems to be the solution.  Expensive but much longer-lasting I suspect.  No personal experience yet, but very much in the plan...

[Buttermilk]

I have put down mud control mats this winter.  Pricey but really worth it.  The horses use them to access the high bits of the field and I no longer have the knee deep mud in front of the barn.

[captainmark]

thank you for replies..........  which mud control mats did you use please?  been looking around - the ones that look most sensible are very pricey as you say!  https://www.mudcontrol.co.uk/slabs  these??  or other?

Did you flatten off soggy ground first or just plonk them down?  If they work can I guess deduct cost of plant hire / man hours etc and less disruption! May not balance out completely financially, but if they work 

[captainmark]

also come across this.  any thoughts / experiences please anyone? https://www.ecodeck.biz/ecodeck-earth-press-grass/

[captainmark]

our other thought at present (where vehicles not used) is maybe just a 150-200mm deep bed of gritty / coarse (sub angular) sand over a membrane if we can source locally enough to make it affordable.  Sounds odd / unusual but thinking this could be a nice solution - will drain well and nothing to get stuck in hooves......  daft idea?

[Buttermilk]

thank you for replies..........  which mud control mats did you use please?  been looking around - the ones that look most sensible are very pricey as you say!  https://www.mudcontrol.co.uk/slabs  these??  or other?

Did you flatten off soggy ground first or just plonk them down?  If they work can I guess deduct cost of plant hire / man hours etc and less disruption! May not balance out completely financially, but if they work 

Those are the ones that I have.  At the moment they are just plonked down as it was already muddy before we got them.  The intention is to lift and position properly come summer but knowing how jobs run away with us that may not happen for a few years.

[captainmark]

We've been round in circles a few times and back again, and a decision finally made - a risk perhaps but would like to think a calculated one:

Having checked back the planning consent does enable us to add a little more concrete but nowhere near all the areas concerned. We cut back originally due to cost and still a non-starter as works out so expensive!

We were at one point convinced digging out, membrane & aggregate was the best solution - coarse sand where horses are moved & crushed concrete for vehicle access which we have used previously. However, could be a risk planning wise, and chances are it wouldn't be granted if we did apply due to jobsworths, idiots and ridiculous policies  - and would cost a whole lot more removing it if ordered to. There will always be a small handful of morons likely to be watching and ready to complain to the planning office.  This option was also going to be very labour intensive as 8 wheeler tippers wouldn't be able to access directly to the space so would mean a lot of barrowing or expensive plant hire.

We had originally dismissed grass grids as seems they are only as good as the preparation etc and the need to bring in gravel / topsoil.

However, we have decided to run with the one we found that can be pushed into the existing surface with a vibrating roller. No digging involved, changes, or additional aggregates required - will be invisible almost.  We were very sceptical, but have been trying a sample and even just one grid on it's own have been astonished how well it seems to be working. Got the chap who delivers our hay to run over it in tractor in a reasonably wet area - didn't sink below surface or break.  Order placed for 138m2 of it - with the cost of the roller hire on top not cheap, but less than the mudcontrol mats and guessing about the same as the aggregate option, quite probably less when taking into account time/work.  Not recommending it yet - all fingers crossed for next winter!  Will report back with the results..............

We will hopefully be digging out the swamp where the tractor turns and loads the hay into the 'tiny barn' (aka as a stable with a double back door) and chucking crushed concrete / stone in over membrane - that would be pushing things too far I think for any grid!  Would be great however if we could just tip a load of stone / hardcore / crushed concrete straight into the mud - been trying to convince myself this might work, but in theory and based on everything you read or hear not a good idea or going to last long.  Anyone tried / direct experience?  Tractor running over it just once a week throughout winter.

 

[SallyintNorth]

Sounds interesting, I wish you luck.

Have you had any livestock on it yet?

and... What is it? 

[captainmark]

https://www.ecodeck.biz/ecodeck-earth-press-grass/  not recommending at this time of course!  have walked the chunky pony on the sample grid and hooves didn't fit into the diamonds (the 2 very big ones are double the size so didnt even bother trying!). delicate horses might well fit however!?   anything with smaller feet could go through and therefore still create mud and potential for getting stuck / injured if ground saturated.  If we get sheep again (last ones went to market as they couldn't behave!) they will be elsewhere, albeit doubt they would be a problem.  As for pigs / cattle etc no idea but suspect may not be at all ideal?  delivery due monday, roller tuesday - like spring here in Kent and drying nicely 

[captainmark]

So far so good    Found it’s levels following existing. Grass seed and top up holes next. Proof will be next winter but so far seems ok. Tractor delivering hay went over track we have laid with little impact and horses doing little to move anything. Fingers and toes crossed. Didn’t go to edge of concrete as didn’t want to disturb hardcore which slopes out. Dug out soil to solid and added membrane and gravel. Old rubber mats cut to width on top to stop gravel spreading.

[captainmark]

has proved to be excellent so far. no mud at all in winter - pretty much invisible too!

[captainmark]

So, an update! still working well in the areas on a slight slope draining off surface although a bit muddy on top. Luckily this better area is in front of stables.  Elsewhere on leveller and wetter areas they have sunk a little - or the grass and mud risen, whichever way you look at it same difference! Not sunk deep and still stable but no longer practical to drive on with road tyres! And walking on requires wellies at the moment. so what do we do? I'm thinking maybe run some gravel boards to edges and add a layer of 6f5 or similar. Thinking is the grids will work as a base and the aggegate will lock into the grids.  Or will it make a bigger problem and go through and sink pushing up more mud, and/or push the grid down?  Or maybe lay a woven geotextile membrane straight onto the muddy grids first?  I can't decide what I think and going round in circles! 🤪 Want to avoid an expensive mess!  The plan was for more grid extending a track but I'm now thinking we'll probably dig 2 trenches with french drains as wheel tracks - we can run them downhill fortunately. Then maybe grids over that as per planning.  Hope there are some opinions, ideas, and/or experiences out there please 🤞

[Bywaters]

The grids will continue to sink as there is nothing to stop them; such as a membrane

Terram (or similar would have been ? would be a solution, under the grids

Could you not skim off the mud to the top of the grids as a temporary measure and next year lift and put a membrane under ?

[captainmark]

thank you for your thoughts.  did do a bit of scraping by hand last winter but back breaking and made a mess! and tore out grass roots holding it all!!   could hire a mini digger and scrape it (lot of cost for not a massive area) but chances are would catch the edges and break grids.  the manufacturer claims they are designed as such to not sink! and not meant to be used with a membrane.  was always a risk. Actually thinking further might drive our small 4WD back and forth over it multiple times and see what happens.  will make a mess for now but will be an indicator perhaps how far they will sink!  then maybe do a test patch with 6F5 and drive over that -  we will need a load at some point anyway for other work.