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Author Topic: mealworms  (Read 1514 times)

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: mealworms
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2021, 08:38:51 pm »
So someone reading this is going to report us all for having at some point in time fed dried mealworms to our hens  :roflanim:


Exactly. ;D
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

Perris

  • Joined Mar 2017
  • Gower
Re: mealworms
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2021, 06:25:47 am »
I can't say it's ever entered my head to feed my hens with sardines  ???  I believe sand eels have been fished to rarity by using as fishmeal for feed, in fact fifty years ago my father used to add that to the pigmeal mix. But sardines?
fishmeal is sometimes listed as an ingredient in poultry feeds; I don't think anyone specifically goes out to catch any sort of fish to feed chickens these days, so that probably means bycatch and bits of fish of no use for human consumption, so by-products of the human food chain.
Anyway, why not try it with your girls? Mine adore them - and no, the eggs do not smell fishy as a result  :D
If you want to know exactly what nutrition they (and a lot of other foods) provide, this is a useful site
https://tools.myfooddata.com/nutrition-facts/175139/100g/1 

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: mealworms
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2021, 09:34:54 am »
sardines are not an animal by-product. Where in the relevant legislation are they banned? and why?
They contain lots of good nutrition, including significant quantities of protein, calcium, and all the amino acids chickens need.
Meanwhile commercial operations can dump the cheapest by-products they can find at any given time into their feeds, and given the inability of anyone to identify those ingredients from the homogenized mass extruded, go unchallenged. We now recognized that highly processed foods are bad for us, so why should we believe that highly processed feed is good for our chickens, who are not (in most cases of people reading this site) being kept in food factory conditions, for the most productive and shortest time?

I beg to differ with your assessment that they're not an animal by-product.  As for "where in the legislation are they banned?" the text under the heading "ABPs you cannot use" reads: "...You must never use:
- scraps and catering waste from any restaurant or commercial kitchen (including vegan kitchens)
- kitchen waste from non-vegan households
- raw meat and fish (including shellfish) or any ABPs containing them
- fully or partially cooked meat, fish and shellfish or any ABPs containing them
- any unprocessed egg and egg products, milk and milk products or any other unprocessed products of animal origin
- collagen and gelatine from ruminants or any products containing it
- unwanted food products, meant for humans, that are decomposing, mouldy, or toxic..."

As for "why?" - because of the risk of disease transfer and zoonosis which could lead to an epidemic or pandemic.

If by "commercial operations" you mean an "ABP-approved processing facility", then likely because they are acting within the requirements of the legislation and have demonstrated appropriate quality controls are in place to ensure the safety of the product that is output.

I don't disagree with you on the point about highly processed foods being bad for humans and potentially animals, but "hobby" keepers are far more likely to have close contact with their livestock, and often keep them for a longer period of time which in combination increases the risk of zoonosis.  Whilst a "new" disease/variant will take off quicker where there is a large confined population, the risk of new zoonotic variants occurring is higher where there is close contact between different species.  For humans the highest risks are with pigs and chickens (almost all significant diseases that originated via zoonosis made the jump to humans through these 2 species).
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Perris

  • Joined Mar 2017
  • Gower
Re: mealworms
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2021, 09:55:13 am »
sardines are not an animal by-product. Where in the relevant legislation are they banned? and why?
They contain lots of good nutrition, including significant quantities of protein, calcium, and all the amino acids chickens need.
Meanwhile commercial operations can dump the cheapest by-products they can find at any given time into their feeds, and given the inability of anyone to identify those ingredients from the homogenized mass extruded, go unchallenged. We now recognized that highly processed foods are bad for us, so why should we believe that highly processed feed is good for our chickens, who are not (in most cases of people reading this site) being kept in food factory conditions, for the most productive and shortest time?

I beg to differ with your assessment that they're not an animal by-product.  As for "where in the legislation are they banned?" the text under the heading "ABPs you cannot use" reads: "...You must never use:
- scraps and catering waste from any restaurant or commercial kitchen (including vegan kitchens)
- kitchen waste from non-vegan households
- raw meat and fish (including shellfish) or any ABPs containing them
- fully or partially cooked meat, fish and shellfish or any ABPs containing them
- any unprocessed egg and egg products, milk and milk products or any other unprocessed products of animal origin
- collagen and gelatine from ruminants or any products containing it
- unwanted food products, meant for humans, that are decomposing, mouldy, or toxic..."

As for "why?" - because of the risk of disease transfer and zoonosis which could lead to an epidemic or pandemic.

If by "commercial operations" you mean an "ABP-approved processing facility", then likely because they are acting within the requirements of the legislation and have demonstrated appropriate quality controls are in place to ensure the safety of the product that is output.

I don't disagree with you on the point about highly processed foods being bad for humans and potentially animals, but "hobby" keepers are far more likely to have close contact with their livestock, and often keep them for a longer period of time which in combination increases the risk of zoonosis.  Whilst a "new" disease/variant will take off quicker where there is a large confined population, the risk of new zoonotic variants occurring is higher where there is close contact between different species.  For humans the highest risks are with pigs and chickens (almost all significant diseases that originated via zoonosis made the jump to humans through these 2 species).

The definition of animal by products is fundamental and crucial here, and they are defined on this govt page
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animal-by-product-categories-site-approval-hygiene-and-disposal
Line 1: "ABPs are animal carcasses, parts of animals, or other materials which come from animals but are not meant for humans to eat."
A tin of sardines for sale in a supermarket is meant for humans to eat and therefore is not an abp.
Your points about animal by product producing/using facilities are all fine, except they came in in response to bse, because commercial feed manufacturers were using sheep brain in feed for other mammals. The risks of zoonotic disease transfer from fish to poultry are miniscule, hence the regs distinguishing fishmeal as ok for ruminants etc.

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: mealworms
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2021, 10:37:07 am »
The definition of animal by products is fundamental and crucial here, and they are defined on this govt page
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animal-by-product-categories-site-approval-hygiene-and-disposal
Line 1: "ABPs are animal carcasses, parts of animals, or other materials which come from animals but are not meant for humans to eat."
A tin of sardines for sale in a supermarket is meant for humans to eat and therefore is not an abp.
Your points about animal by product producing/using facilities are all fine, except they came in in response to bse, because commercial feed manufacturers were using sheep brain in feed for other mammals. The risks of zoonotic disease transfer from fish to poultry are miniscule, hence the regs distinguishing fishmeal as ok for ruminants etc.

I understand your logic, but it is flawed because the moment you open a tin "for the chickens" rather than "for a human", it is no longer intended for human consumption and it becomes an animal byproduct on the basis that it is "catering waste".  That's why the guidance specifically says you can't feed raw, partially cooked or cooked fish.

The current legislation came in primarily due to Foot and Mouth... which was the result of infected beef being imported from South America to feed HM Forces and then entering the food chain via 'pig swill'...  The legislation on treatment of swill had changed not that long before and a system that had worked for decades was replaced by one that cost the industry a small fortune at the time and put many smaller producers out of business.  The new system failed; spectacularly!  Rather than the government reverting to the method that had worked for decades, they imposed new regulations and legislation.

BSE pre-dated Foot & Mouth but primarily the legislation only related to human ingestion of highest risk offal back then.  I think we will fully agree on the fact that the greed associated with feeding herbivores on animal protein (whether or not it was infected) was a stupid and dangerous practice that should never have been allowed.  Governments don't seem to be particularly good at putting health ahead of financial profit (as we've seen throughout the current pandemic when their approach to the precautionary principle has been to take precautions not to stop the disease until it's proven to be a problem rather than taking precautions to stop the disease until they've proven it to be under control)!

You cannot feed fishmeal to ruminants, only to non-ruminants (ok for chickens but not for cows).

"You can only feed these ABPs to non-ruminants (animals that do not chew the cud):
- fishmeal
- blood products
- dicalcium and tricalcium phosphate of animal origin
- processed animal protein (PAP) from poultry and pigs (only to farmed fish)"

The only way for a keeper to legally feed sardines to their hens would be for them to become an approved ABP facility with APHA.

What we could really do with, is some of the approved ABPs selling 'canned fish' for hens... now that would really simplify life and I'd reckon there would be a market for it in the same way as there is a market for cat and dog food!
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Perris

  • Joined Mar 2017
  • Gower
Re: mealworms
« Reply #20 on: June 20, 2021, 08:29:36 pm »
The definition of ABP is crystal clear, and a tin of sardines is not magically transformed into an animal by product by the act of opening it to feed the hens there and then. So we will have to agree to disagree about this.
I suggest anyone interested in the topic read the webpage of govt guidance for themselves,  https://www.gov.uk/guidance/animal-by-product-categories-site-approval-hygiene-and-disposal

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
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Re: mealworms
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2021, 10:45:26 am »
Methinks some people on this subject are rather pedantic
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: mealworms
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2021, 02:58:41 pm »
Methinks some people got on a very high horse and can't get off it....




This was a simple question that got answered by the first person replying....

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: mealworms
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2021, 09:45:10 pm »
Methinks some people got on a very high horse and can't get off it....




This was a simple question that got answered by the first person replying....
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:  Indeed I did
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow: 5th UK nation
Re: mealworms
« Reply #24 on: June 22, 2021, 11:43:22 pm »
sardines are not an animal by-product. Where in the relevant legislation are they banned? and why?
They contain lots of good nutrition, including significant quantities of protein, calcium, and all the amino acids chickens need ...
My dogs LOVE their occasional sardine dinner.  Aldi and Lidl offer in sunflower oil for quite a few pennies less than the others (if one can find any left on their shelves !).  Feeding both of my 2 small dogs for about 0.32 a can (split between them !) is just brilliant:  they always seem very satisfied after scoffing their half-share of a sardine meal (which might be one of their 2 meals a day).   
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 12:00:36 am by arobwk »

Perris

  • Joined Mar 2017
  • Gower
Re: mealworms
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2021, 05:42:35 am »
as it happens there was a news item yesterday on the EU dumping the relevant legislation that bans mealworms
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/22/eu-to-lift-its-ban-on-feeding-animal-remains-to-domestic-livestock  :excited:

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: mealworms
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2021, 07:58:23 pm »
As a pedant, I'm guessing now is the time to say that any change to EU legislation will be irrelevant to the UK until such time as our own legislators decide to change our legislation...
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: mealworms
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2021, 08:06:05 pm »
As a pedant, I'm guessing now is the time to say that any change to EU legislation will be irrelevant to the UK until such time as our own legislators decide to change our legislation...

Nothing wrong with pedantry - keeps the world going round!  Well of course it doesn't but..... :eyelashes:

May I also add that just because legislation changes to suit the whims of politicians doesn't mean I would want to eat or keep animals raised in the new conditions with lesser standards of care.  I don't think it's something to be excited about that the EU will now be feeding  :poo: and ground up dead animals to livestock.
Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: mealworms
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2021, 10:02:36 pm »

May I also add that just because legislation changes to suit the whims of politicians doesn't mean I would want to eat or keep animals raised in the new conditions with lesser standards of care.  I don't think it's something to be excited about that the EU will now be feeding  :poo: and ground up dead animals to livestock.


Actually the UK is now one better than the EU, now we will be able to get the double dose from the US - not just fed growth hormones and AB's (and most likely undustrial food waste as well), but also washed in chlorine....


But this morning I saw one of my hens eating the leftovers from Quentin's (our cat) midnight hunts.... and she was mightily pleased with herself for spottting it before the others did, and I was pleased that I didn't have to move it out of the way... and yes it was very dead. So given the choice the hens will eat any kind of protein, alive or dead. My problem with feeding animal proetins to omnivores is not the principle, but the scale of industrial production.... but then I try not to eat chicken that hasn't run around my place.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: mealworms
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2021, 10:59:59 pm »
Hens love a dead mouse don't they.  They also catch baby frogs up to about 2" long, the one who caught it chased by the rest of the flock to grab the prized delicacy. Of course we also eat 'ground up dead animals' (mince and tatties), but I understand that the stuff reclaimed for animal feed is far from of a standard which could be used for human consumption, and contains some pretty dodgy bits and bobs, with a wide interpretation of 'meat'.
And yes, the chlorine - possibly acceptable in certain circumstances but it's what it's used to disguise that's disgusting. I had forgotten about growth hormones - could that have anything to do with the oversized specimens of humanity many of us are becoming  :thinking:
I don't eat chicken at all, never buy it and we let our hens live out their days here in retirement. My reasoning isn't very logical in this instance  :hughen:
Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

 Love your soil - it's the lifeblood of your land.

 

mealworms and other insects

Started by Perris (8.64)

Replies: 1
Views: 369
Last post July 01, 2021, 12:25:52 pm
by Fleecewife

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