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Author Topic: Heptavac P infection after injection  (Read 589 times)

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Bagot

  • Joined Mar 2021
Heptavac P infection after injection
« on: March 21, 2021, 10:36:30 am »
So we have three Bagot billies and were advised rather than vaccinating them with Lambivac we should use Heptavac P because it has a broader spectrum . However, two of our three billies have now got abscesses. One has already burst and we are treating it, cleaned the site this morning, one which has a very localised pussy sack which we will lance later and one which has a deeper lump which may yet develop into an abscess. Is this normal for a first vaccination of Hep? Haven't got the same reaction from the sheep, we have four Balwens. Interested in finding out what the general consensus is and whether we should just return to using Lambivac? 
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 10:39:21 am by Bagot »

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2021, 05:33:15 pm »
I don't know where you got the info re Heptavac rather than Lambivac from, but actually goats are not very good at building up immunity from multi vaccines, and are also much less líkely to suffer from the 7 (or more) diseases covered by the likes of Heptavac. The two main killers are enterotoxaemia and pneumonia pasteurella, plus tetanus for young stock. So Lambivac followed by Ovipast would have been the right choice. Goats also need boosters more regularly than sheep, I now booster my younger stock at 3 to 4 monthly intervals, going to 6 monthly for older adults. Pasteurella every 6 months booster.


As to the abcess - this is more likely to be a reaction to the carrier fluid in the vaccine rather than the vaccine itself, and some goats get quite bad abcesses to Lambivac too. I normally don't touch them and they will eventually disappear.

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2021, 07:44:18 pm »
As Anke says, unless you have a very specific threat on your premises that indicates Heptavac should be used, the Goat Vet Society advises Lambivac which covers the 4 most likely clostridial diseases to affect goats rather than Heptavac which covers 7.  The issue is that because of the way the goat's immune system works, if overloaded it fails to take up any immunity and therefore it's better to get immunity against the 4 most likely than to aim for 7 and get zero.

It is also recommended to vaccinate at least every 6 months but for strong immunity every 4 months for goats.

Abscesses are common with both Lambivac and Heptavac.  Again, Anke is correct that this is down to the carrier fluid not the vaccination itself.  The vaccination should be given sub cutaneously but as we all know, goats are wimps and almost always flinch or jump when the needle goes in.  Likelihood is that you've nicked the underlying muscle and the carrier fluid will then create an abscess.  The same thing happens if you're unlucky enough to spike yourself with the needle - it's incredibly sore!

Most vaccination abscesses don't need lancing, they disappear after 3-4 months on their own.  Occasionally, you'll get one that is really nasty and it will make its own way to the surface and burst.  When it does, and only then, you should treat it.  I generally flush out with salt water and spray with iodine which seems to work to let it heal over quickly.

As an aside, Bagots are particularly difficult with vaccinations because they don't have much "spare skin" to enable you to go for a sub cutaneous stab without hitting the underlying muscle and, unless you've sheared them before starting, you're also fighting through a mass of hair to find the skin underneath... which is fine if you have a sensible sweetheart, but a PITA if you've got a whinging wimp with big horns protesting that you're clearly trying to stab him to death with a blunt needle.... or are those just my boys?
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Bagot

  • Joined Mar 2021
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2021, 08:33:58 pm »
Thank you so much for your replies. The information came to me from a local farm supplies and then the vet also recommended Heptavac over Lambivac. I'm not sure what we should do now. Should we return to giving them Lambivac?

Bagot

  • Joined Mar 2021
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2021, 08:57:08 pm »
I should add that this is the first Heptavac and that they should have a second one in four weeks.

Anke

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • St Boswells, Scottish Borders
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2021, 09:52:43 pm »
Most vets aren't that well clued up on goats, they do not get much at vet school, unless they are really interested.


Historically many goatkeepers have used Heptavac, believing that the more diseases to be vaccinated against the better.


You can switch to Lambivac for the second shot if you want to, but then it may be better to have a booster sooner than 6 months. Lambivac vaccination does not always work either, I have had young goats dying of enterotoxaemia despite 6 monthly boosters, so now on 4 monthly system. There isn't that much research on vaccine efficacy for goats....


Heptavac isn't going to cause much harm, just maybe the immune response is not quite so good.

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2021, 12:37:12 am »
Heptavac includes the 4 strains in Lambivac so giving it as the 2nd shot would just boost the immunity for those 4 strains... in other words you don't have to start again with a 1st dose of Lambivac.

It has to be your choice in terms of how you proceed and it will depend on local circumstances.  Personally, I'd have another conversation with the vet practice and if they're not sure, ask them to check with the Goat Vet Society.  It may be that your vet practice is aware of a specific threat that would suggest Heptavac over Lambivac, or it may just be that they're less familiar with goats than sheep.  If the latter is the case then be very careful if ever you are getting "treatments" rather than "vaccinations" for the goats because the dosage almost always varies from what would be required for sheep due to the speed of the goat metabolism.  They generally need significantly higher doses of things (e.g. wormers, painkillers etc) so always double check with the vet that they have checked the goat dosage and not just prescribed the sheep dose.

If you want to join the GVS, membership is open to non qualified individuals but you don't get voting rights.  It's not expensive in the great scheme of things (I think about 35 quid from memory) and gives you access to the GVS journal and all the same stuff as they give the vet members.  It also means if you need specialist help for your animals, you're not afraid to ask for it directly from the GVS or to ask your vet to use your membership to access the information required.  I've found them very helpful with a couple of issues I had (which eventually resulted in me changing my local vet to someone I felt I could trust).
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Bagot

  • Joined Mar 2021
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2021, 09:53:46 am »
That's incredibly useful information to have, as with many on here, what vets in a regular livestock practice really know about goats could be written on a the back of a fag packet. We have had our Bagots for less than a year, and we also have four Balwen sheep also which we have had for less than a year, so we are new to keeping livestock, well to be honest they aren't livestock but part of the family. I will absolutely join the GVS. Having access to information not readily out there would be very useful indeed. We are vegetarians so we want our ruminants to live out their lives in the best manner possible, therefore knowing the dos and don'ts is crucially important for us. 

Scarlet.Dragon

  • Joined May 2015
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2021, 10:18:17 am »
Beware of referring to Bagots as part of the family... I can't speak for the Balwens, but Bagots will very quickly put you in your place.... they're not family they're slave owners!  You are the one that gets sent out to make money to buy them dinner, give them somewhere warm and comfortable to sleep, and you are the one expected to scratch their itch, feed them treats, peel their grapes and fan them gently whilst they lounge around in the heat!  I've never quite figured out how they managed it, but I swear I could retire if I didn't have the Bagots!  The horses were only playing at being high maintenance!
Excellence is the result of caring more than others think is wise, risking more than others think is safe, dreaming more than others think is practical and expecting more than others think is possible.

Bagot

  • Joined Mar 2021
Re: Heptavac P infection after injection
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2021, 03:12:41 pm »
You are of course correct, we spend a lot of time with them, all they want from us are cuddles...really seriously, they like me putting my head underneath theirs and then they fall asleep on top of me. I work from home anyway, so they are great to have around and a good distraction. We are slaves to them!! But we have 12 cats so we know what being a human slave to our animals means. We've been conditioned. Balwens are far more independent and seem to be a lot more Zen about life. Saying that we have an issue with them at the moment because they have become photo-sensitive. Assuming they must consumed something they shouldn't have, only signs I can see are the tips of wild daffodils have been eaten. So they stay in their shelter in the day and come out once the sun has gone down and the temperature has dropped. We believe they have turned into vampyric sheep! Surely the only explanation. And before anyone accuses me of being dismissive of their current condition, we have had the vet out who had no idea what it could be. He thought Scab, but upon inspection they are showing no sign of it. Anyway, we are keeping them in at the moment just to see if it improves. Awaiting blood tests to confirm they have or haven't got scab. I have found no evidence to say that being light sensitive is a symptom of scab. Farmers sheep around us also aren't showing signs of Scab, so again I find myself returning to them having eaten something they shouldn't have. Bagots on the other hand seem fine. I chuckled at your reference to Bagots and grapes. Certainly their favourite treat.   

 

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