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Author Topic: Rare breed = expensive  (Read 23186 times)

colliewoman

  • Joined Jul 2011
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Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #45 on: February 03, 2013, 09:16:31 pm »

I should have said my crosses were castlemilks x shetlands and that THEY would be of no use to someone such as yourself.
But then having said that my 50% Castlemilk x shetlands shed there fleece entirely.. I wonder what their daughters would be like if crossed to a Wilts.... :thinking: :thinking: :D

Hi Colliewoman, I have Castlemilks and am wondering whether to cross with Shetlands. I can get a Shetland tup locally no problem, whereas I am finding it quite difficult to find an unrelated Castlemilk tup... Didn't realise they would shed their fleece either  :D How do you find the Castlemilk Crosses in comparison to Castlemilk through n through?



 :wave: :wave:
I have never kept pure Castlemilks but the crosses are adorable! Though they shed their fleece, I rooed mine out and have usable fleece in lovely colours!
I bred mine as ewe lambs to a shetland tup and they did their single lambs very well. The Boys were born in mid April and though small (compared to big white jobs) I sent them for slaughter (killed out at 12kg) in November and they were  :yum: :yum: :yum:  Also the lambskins are delightful.
Not all of the crosses will shed, just as not all shetlands will shed. But certainly all of mine would :thumbsup:


I am picking up 2 more soon, they look far more shetland and have a very think fleece #(looking forward to putting a Gotland ram across those!)


What is it you are wanting from your sheep?
I am trying to get the good all rounder for someone like myself. So I want;
Good doers, not needing much feeding (I wouldn't be caking at all if I hadn't had a monumental grazing cock up and had to wait 4 months for the grass I should have had in August  ::) )
Good feet, The CM x Shetlands or their lambs have NEVER needed aa foot trim  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Lovely fleeces, I spin, felt, will be weaving i use fleece as insulation etc etc.
Tasty meat, and regardless to anyone else's opinion I much prefer the taste of the primitives who's fat is marbled throughout the meat rather than in a layer around it.
Easy to handle. I just shout and they come running :D
Also my back is officially rubbish so I cannot sensibly keep a lot of big sheep. If one of mine refused to be led I can simply pick it up and move it ;)


Now this might seem like the biggest waste of time for a breeding enterprise, but I'm not breeding my sheep and experimenting with crosses for anyone else. I am trying to produce an animal that can give me everything I need in my strive to be as self sufficient as possible.


I would say try the cross, If you don't like the out come eat them and try a castlemilk the following year!
I would say though, if you do breed pure then register the offspring. Unregistered progeny are usless when it comes to safeguarding a breed in times of crisis ;)

We'll turn the dust to soil,
Turn the rust of hate back into passion.
It's not water into wine
But it's here, and it's happening.
Massive,
but passive.


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colliewoman

  • Joined Jul 2011
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Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #46 on: February 03, 2013, 09:34:11 pm »
Come on, lets be honest, im not a proper shepherd/farmer, its not my main source of income. And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep. If the market prices rise and fall, its not the end of the world for them. If someone wants to pay £250 for a mini, primitive fashionable sheep, wait 18mnths for a 10- 15 kilo low fat super healthy carcase, and they have the money to do it, then thats fine. But dont pretend charging those prices is for the good of the breed. Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production. And yes, i do have sympathy for all the farmers who are struglling at the minute, and to say its all about subsides is ridiculous!


But no one is claiming to be breeding rare breeds for purely meat production??? (not that I have seen) and I don't know anyone that would buy or sell an animal for £250 to put it in the freezer ???
But before you judge the prices charged for some breeds, Imagine you are breeding an animal that 25 years ago was almost extinct. Just because they are rare doesn't mean you can keep everything as a breeding animal. Take the Castlemilk Moorit as an example. Try finding a GOOD QUALITY unrelated ram. They are like hens teeth and when they come along of course the breeder will charge sensible money for it. They mall have culled 150 to get one good enough to sell/use. That's what happens when you bring something back from the brink.


No one would bat an eyelid at spending 100's on a good breeding animal of a commercial  type. Rare breed people are surely allowed  the same pride in their stock are they not?
Or is it a rip off because it's not big and white??
And no I am not anti farming, not at all. I was brought up farming and continue to this day with beef cattle for a friend. But I chose something different for me and if in years to come I realise my dream sheep then I will ask fair money for them if I sell any because I have already shed blood sweat and tears getting to this stage and I am a loooong ways off being near my goal.
But if you don't like them or think they are worth it then simply don't buy them ;)


I don't know how to express what I mean and hope this hasn't come across as argumentative as it isn't intended like that. But most of us work just as hard as the big enterprises at breeding the best animal we can for whatever purpose we have chosen and it seems a little unfair that we should be penalised for choosing something other than commercial meat animals :-\
We'll turn the dust to soil,
Turn the rust of hate back into passion.
It's not water into wine
But it's here, and it's happening.
Massive,
but passive.


Bring the peace back

Brucklay

  • Joined Apr 2010
  • Perthshire
    • Brucklay Pygmy Goats
    • Facebook
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #47 on: February 03, 2013, 10:33:36 pm »
Thank you CW for putting into words my thoughts - my wee CM and Shetland flock are my pride and joy - not commercial but part of my life - I hope to produce good lambs, good fleeces and work on my small flocks


If only I had £250 for a ewe!!!!!!!!
Pygmy Goats, Shetland Sheep, Zip & Indie the Border Collies, BeeBee the cat and a wreak of a building to renovate!!

thenovice

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #48 on: February 03, 2013, 11:21:33 pm »
No offence taken or intended, i just like a bit of healthy debate  :innocent: . I know there are alot of decent people out there breeding and selling quality stock, but as with all walks of life there are plenty trying to shift their dross at inflated prices. If you dont really know what you are looking at or just starting out, these people can see us coming a mile out! Horses for courses i know, but sadly prices are on the way down. I wish you all a relatively stress free lambing, and il be praying for dry weather  :wave:

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • ScotHebs
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #49 on: February 03, 2013, 11:26:05 pm »
Come on, lets be honest, im not a proper shepherd/farmer, its not my main source of income. And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep. If the market prices rise and fall, its not the end of the world for them. If someone wants to pay £250 for a mini, primitive fashionable sheep, wait 18mnths for a 10- 15 kilo low fat super healthy carcase, and they have the money to do it, then thats fine. But dont pretend charging those prices is for the good of the breed. Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production. And yes, i do have sympathy for all the farmers who are struglling at the minute, and to say its all about subsides is ridiculous!

Thenovice - I have been trying to work out just what it is you object to?  Is it the people you imagine have more money than you? Is it the prices you imagine are being achieved for rare breeds?
What do you mean when you say: 'Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production'?  It seems to me that you are doing just that - comparing pedigree rearing of breeding stock to rearing sheep for meat.  What's not real about raising breeding stock?  How do you think the Texel tup which sold at Lanark for £43,000 was bred?  Not by someone who only raised meat sheep, but by someone who had two parts to his farming business - meat and breeding stock.  I think he would call himself a real farmer.
 
Which particular rare breed of sheep did you see selling for £250, where and when?  or are you just trying to stir it?  Why would it not be worth £250 if it was a good sheep?
 
Which breeds are you thinking of when you say they produce a 10-15kg carcase at 18 months?  Many rare breeds of sheep are big animals and some are small, but there are only a couple of breeds which would produce such a small carcase and as I have already pointed out, their main purpose in life is not to produce meat.
 
I think it's time you were more specific in your comments instead of waving vague unsupported figures around.  Posters are trying to discuss your post sensibly so please stick to the facts, essential for a proper debate.
 
<<And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep.>>
Really?  I certainly haven't gained that impression from members of this forum. There may be some who made a fortune in the City before retiring to raise sheep in an idyllic country dream (and why not if that's what they want), but far more it seems are honest, hard-working smallholders.  Your comment is pure prejudice - perhaps you have a big chip on your shoulder?
 
Some of the rare breeds do make good prices, including Ryelands, Kerry Hill etc (or they did last time I was at a mart) but why shouldn't they?  They are hefty and beautiful sheep.  I get the impression that you are envious because you have chosen the wrong breed.  It's easy enough to change.
 
<<there are plenty trying to shift their dross at inflated prices>>   I have just seen your latest post after I posted this.     Caveat Emptor - as you say, there are plenty of chancers out there, but they are most definitely not restricted to breeders of rare breed sheep, which is where you began this thread.
 
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:29:55 pm by Fleecewife »
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thenovice

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2013, 11:29:41 pm »
Ouch!  :D I did say some breeders in my first post
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 11:43:14 pm by thenovice »

SteveHants

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #51 on: February 04, 2013, 12:16:02 am »
What do you mean when you say: 'Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production'?  It seems to me that you are doing just that - comparing pedigree rearing of breeding stock to rearing sheep for meat.  What's not real about raising breeding stock?  How do you think the Texel tup which sold at Lanark for £43,000 was bred?  Not by someone who only raised meat sheep, but by someone who had two parts to his farming business - meat and breeding stock.  I think he would call himself a real farmer.


And its this breeder, who I assume is selling a cabbage and barley stuffed approxiation of a ram who I'd have the most 'problem' with. I can't ever see show ring champs like this being good for sheep farming in general.


I once spoke to a terminal sire breeder and was alarmed at the number of ceasars he deemed normal...and they wonder why more and more people are buying on EBVs etc....

ScotsGirl

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Wiltshire
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #52 on: February 04, 2013, 08:35:15 am »
Ditto to fleece wife and CW's reply. My reply disappeared into space.


I think the novice should provide the example he is referring to as obviously he/she has tried to buy something and had their fingers burnt or nearly.




Marches Farmer

  • Joined Dec 2012
  • Herefordshire
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2013, 09:12:56 am »
I'm with you on that one Fleecewife.  Every breeding ram I sell or hire is generally around one tenth of the ram lambs produced in the year of his birth.  It's a constant selection process through the year.  Not everyone will care that much whether they're getting an all round, top quality animal for their money, but some do.  And I do.

thenovice

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2013, 10:14:22 am »
Mini sheep like oussants sell for silly money, why? Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why? Im sorry, but playing about with fancy lawnmowers doesnt make you a serious sheep farmer/breeder. Rare breed sheep, that were hardy and bred with survival of the fittest in mind, are now stuffed full of cake, brought into lovely warm sheds when it starts to get a little chilly, medicated at the slightest sniffle and cuddled to death. Who bought micro pigs at silly prices??? Im a terrier man aswell, and i love my patterdales, but now they are getting popular and fashionable, puppies cost you £300 - £400. WHY? A proper Patt from a real terrierman, who loves and cares for his workers, will be half that price. Some have never sold a dog in their life! They love their breed! Whos buying all these sheep at inflated prices, the same people who get sucked in a\nd then breed to more likeminded folk, thus perpetuating this farce. Fixed prices at breed shows make it seem that this is the going rate. 

Victorian Farmer

  • Guest
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2013, 10:58:51 am »
sheep at the mo dawn to 60 pound from 85 not good .I have 200 ewes i pay the best price for a ram last September i bought the best in show . Most people keep there best stock if some are for sale then a fare price is needed , last  November the price was  dawn i still have last ya res stock to sell .November sale es in dingwall i sold some old stock there was a woman that put 5 ewes in there were very good looking  when i spoke to her she said they were nice girls and hoped for a good price they were in fantastic condition so i bought them well over price but they were good stock ,so a good price for a good animal . and the comments from fleecewife is dead on most members help each other to improve stock .
« Last Edit: February 04, 2013, 11:03:28 am by Victorian Farmer »

ZaktheLad

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Thornbury, Nr Bristol
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2013, 11:02:06 am »
The micro-pigs issue is more to do with what's in fashion at the time, and I suspect this might be the case for many breeds of animal - especially with dogs and the breed such as the cockerpoo etc.  I think it is crazy what people will pay nowadays for a crossbreed puppy, just because they have seen various celebrities carrying the same breed of puppy around in a handbag.   Breeding animals such as the teacup yorkie does nothing for the original Yorkshire Terrier breed but it seems the current trend is to breed something as tiny as possible with any health aspects of the animal going out of the window.

At the end of the day it is all down to personal choice - mine being that I am more than happy with my closed flock of crossbreed ewes and my crossbreed dogs that have cost me what I am prepared to pay for a crossbreed dog.  I have never considered paying more than what I think a lurcher pup is worth, despite many lurcher breeders now thinking they can charge ridiculous money for their pups.   I will also never pay more than what I think a sheep is worth at the time and I personally think that £43,000 for a texel tup is stupid money, however well bred it is.   However, if someone has the money and feels it is well spent on such an animal, then that's their choice.  :innocent:

It's all about what the individual likes, what they want to pay and what they like looking at in their fields.  I Paid £175 for my Hampshire Down ram lamb in August and £198 for a shearling Suffolk ewe with suffolk x charollais ewe lamb in Feb 2012 and that fits within my ideas of what is right for my set-up.   I am not keeping sheep in the hope of making a fortune, I just enjoy them as a hobby and maybe make a small profit to cover my costs (although this rarely happens!).   ;D  I also don't think it is always the case that rare breeds make a lot of money - you only have to look at websites such as preloved, to see many rare and minority breeds being offered cheaply.   

kanisha

  • Joined Dec 2007
    • Spered Breizh Ouessants
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Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2013, 11:14:35 am »
Mini sheep like oussants sell for silly money, why? Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why?

You might like to know that if you check out the local french site many ouessants are sold for around 50 euros . The french breed society  starter price for a to standard sheep with parentage is around 150 euros beyond that you will pay higher pricers for animals that have rare bloodlines and or rarer genetics. Nothing like prices that have been asked in the UK.

With regards to Mini sheep as a breed the Ouessant has never been miniaturised and was reared as a dual purpose breed for both meat and fleece its size actually commanded HIGHER prices on the meat market as they were able to graze the salt  estuaries places that large commercial breeds couldn't not produce on The breed was born out of economic necessity in areas where pasture and lifestyle was extremely poor and profitability was everything. As fleecewife has pointed out heritage breeds especially primitives may have fallen out of favour and are in need of re-inventing themselves if they are to stay in the market but their value is in the conservation of the genetics. And  offer variability in a market place where for example and this is one statistic that scares the hell out of me in the herfordshire cattle despite the large numbers world wide they represent genetically a population value of fifty individuals!

Ravelry Group: - Ouessants & Company

colliewoman

  • Joined Jul 2011
  • Pilton
  • Caution! May spontaneously talk rabbits!
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2013, 01:06:00 pm »
Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why?

Why not?? How much do you think she should be worth as a pedigree breeding animal??
I know for a FACT If I was to buy her I could make my money back by selling her as mutton!
If you don't think she is worth the money, don't buy her!
If you are frustrated because you are surrounded by pony paddocks and  can't rent more land it ain't the fault of the soay breeder that's for sure! Unless of course they are on ground you want to rent? ;) ;D
We'll turn the dust to soil,
Turn the rust of hate back into passion.
It's not water into wine
But it's here, and it's happening.
Massive,
but passive.


Bring the peace back

ScotsGirl

  • Joined Dec 2009
  • Wiltshire
Re: Rare breed = expensive
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2013, 01:12:02 pm »
Well said collie woman!

 

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