The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: thenovice on February 01, 2013, 03:05:29 pm
-
It always amazes me the value people put on their animals, and particularly the rare/trendy breeds. Speaking to some breeders lately, and they are still trying to charge what they were asking in the summer, which is ridiculous when you consider the considerable fall in prices lately at the local market ( full mouthed scanned in lamb ewes for £40!), and the lack of dry grazing. Perhaps rare breeds remain rare because people are unrealistic about their worth, and price them way above the working class smallholders budget, love a bit of exclusivity, or there are plenty of people out there with more money than sense, and acres of ride on mower kept pasture. Fair price for fair stock. Rant over :innocent:
-
Not been my experience with my Coloured Ryelands.
-
Not sure where you're heading with this one. If you're after a breeding animal then most of the registered, pedigree flocks I know of will be offering, as I do, top quality animals that are the culmination of years of hard culling, rigorous care and regular infusions of often very expensive quality ram bloodlines. I would never offer for breeding an animal I wouldn't keep myself if I had the room. Anything else goes to our freezer or to market as lamb or store lambs. Sometimes a breed just falls from fashion - think of the way the Border Leicester and Suffolk have waxed then waned over the last few decades. Continentals such as the Charollais, Texel, Rouge and Vendeen are presently popular but for how long? The Southdown was the sire of choice for over a century, fell from fashion, became rare, now I have a waiting list for both ram hire and ewe lambs ....
-
people will pay ridiculous prices for a puggle as they think they are getting something special in reality they are buying an expensive cross breed. I don't think rareity is necessarily the reason
-
I think the reason is rare breeds tend to be bred by smallholders. They are under less pressure to sell than a farmer who has to spread his income throughout the year. Therefore they can ask higher prices. Buyers are after something specific with a rare breed, appearance, characteristic etc which again aids the seller.
Rare breeds are rare as they are less economically viable to produce on a large scale.
-
If you know of anyone who can afford to produce and sell a good quality, registered ewe who has been tupped by a good quality registerd ram for £40 please let me know!
Perhaps we can form an orderly queue at your gate this time next year?
-
I think the low price for in-lamb ewes currently is due to schmallenberg, seems to be rife amongst early lambers and nobody wants to take the risk.
-
I remember something of a 'debate' on this some time ago where i believe my wife posted about the asking price of some pedigree but unregistered Hampshire ewe lambs that actually were not of show quality but commanding top dollar..........the subject being strongly defended by similar keepers on this very forum....i still haven't gotten my head around the issue ::)
-
:wave:
The old adage "you get what you pay for" seems to have run straight for me.
We bought cheap, unregistered Balwen Welsh Mountain sheep as our first flock in October. One went down with fly strike in less than two weeks, one died and one seems to have quite bad feet (and impossible to catch) and now she is in lamb, looks to have quite crooked legs too. None were bucket trained (as claimed by the seller) and I doubt they had been vaccinated or wormed!
We then bought two registered Badger Faced Welsh Mountain. Not so cheap (but not ridiculous) and not in lamb. They are bucket trained, eat out of your hand, got all the paperwork and appropriate tags.
I know what I'm going to pay for next time! :innocent:
-
I would imagine the fall in price is partly to do with SBD, the unrealistic high price recently, and the fact that sheep are coming off keep, and if they arnt going indoors they will be destroying the sopping wet pasture. These are real prices, maybe not 1st class registered pedigree ewes, but proven in lamb ewes none the least. These fashionable "rare breeds" are being bought and kept by smallholders yes, but they are willing to pay £150 for a ewe, and thus keep prices artificially high. Supply and demand! For hundreds of years sheep have been kept for their meat and wool, and gave this country a lot of wealth. Now they seem to be kept as pets, and lawnmowers, something lovely to look at and stroke. If that floats your boat fine, but i for one am becoming worried about wasted grazing, the way people are becoming detached from where meat comes from, why the countryside looks and works the way it does,, and the fact that britain cannot feed itself! :innocent:
-
It never ceases to amaze me what people will pay for animals.
All the market reports are published - so you should know what the ewes are worth as meat, baseline. You then decide how much extra on top you are willing to pay. A 'pedigree' sheep is just as likely to be dead tomorrow than a non-ped one. I tend to go on the breeders reputation and ethos. I only buy off-farm and I get a good look at the stock in the fields and the system they run.
Some of my best ewes bought as two-tooths from a breeder with a solid rep I felt were worth parting with up to £150 each for. I doubt Id pay any more than that.
The world of pedigree stock is high-risk (potentially) high-reward. Your breed will command good money whilst it is in vogue, but when it isn't, it'll be worth less. I also feel that the world of sheep is moving away from merit based on bloodline and moving towards merit based on performance, which is something to bear in mind.
-
I have to say I find this discussion quite offensive. Whilst I mainly keep my sheep as a hobby and they are my pets, the aim is to produce quality lamb for the freezer and any good ewe lambs either keep or sell for breeding. They are a decent type and a lot of time dedication and money has gone into producing them.
You only have to look at the cost of feed and vet bills to know that being offered £40 is an insult. I'm not talking about primitive types which don't produce much meat but larger breeds which do. Schmallenberg is an issue and would explain low prices but otherwise I would rather slaughter a sheep and sell the meat than let someone have it at that price. A decent ewe is going to give you years of lambs if looked after well and she will pay for herself several times over.
-
I feel sorry for the farmers. If the ewes are in lamb you cannot slaughter, and if there is nowhere for them to go, what is the poor bloke going to do? I have no wish to offend anyone, but feel frustrated as i am surrounded by pony paddocks, and have no way to rent more land.
-
I have to say I find this discussion quite offensive. Whilst I mainly keep my sheep as a hobby and they are my pets, the aim is to produce quality lamb for the freezer and any good ewe lambs either keep or sell for breeding. They are a decent type and a lot of time dedication and money has gone into producing them.
You only have to look at the cost of feed and vet bills to know that being offered £40 is an insult. I'm not talking about primitive types which don't produce much meat but larger breeds which do. Schmallenberg is an issue and would explain low prices but otherwise I would rather slaughter a sheep and sell the meat than let someone have it at that price. A decent ewe is going to give you years of lambs if looked after well and she will pay for herself several times over.
£40 is what in-lamb ewes are fetching at mart - It's depressing, but thats the way auctions work. The reason is that people are worried about SBD - I imagine ewes with lambs at foot will fetch decent money later on, its just that nobody is going to risk lambing ewes this year if they dont have to.
On the other hand, those that are willing to risk it will be getting ewes/lambs at next to nothing.
I wouldn't buy in-lamb ewes this year myself, but then again, neither will I be selling any.
-
Im hoping to pick up a few in lamb ewes :o . Unfortunately this may be an opportunity for me to build a small flock. It may be a risk i know :fc:
-
Is this pricing throughout the UK or in certain areas? I seem to pay and get "the going rate" privately for the few stock I sell - maybe different at this time of year in different parts of the country
-
It's a strange world when people are prepared to pay £25 for an orphan/cade lamb but a welsh x ewe in lamb to faced blue Leicester goes for £40 at the same market. Must just be the worry of SBD, but there again, a cade lamb is as likely to drop dead within a couple of days. Both purchases have a high risk. At the same market, quality ewes were in demand selling at £173 for a ewe with twins - not too bad a price considering the downturn in prices. Also, a lot does depend on the condition and state of the ewes sold - I have seen some pitiful examples at my local market, some so thin that they were eating the wool off of each others backs. Would have to say though, that if I took some in-lamb ewes to market and they reached £40, I would tell the auctioneer that I would take them back home!
-
Im hoping to pick up a few in lamb ewes :o . Unfortunately this may be an opportunity for me to build a small flock. It may be a risk i know :fc:
It's a buyers market if you are prepared to take the risk.
-
I feel sorry for the farmers. If the ewes are in lamb you cannot slaughter, and if there is nowhere for them to go, what is the poor bloke going to do? I have no wish to offend anyone, but feel frustrated as i am surrounded by pony paddocks, and have no way to rent more land.
I think you have summed it up yourself there.
If you keep 00's head of sheep and rely on sending a good proportion to market, then you will always be at the mercy of the mart.
I, and most small flock keepers like myself don't HAVE to send any away as such. I will fill my freezer and that of my friends and family with the boys. But what of the 2 in lamb ewes I have surplus at the moment?
I will sell them for £50 a head, and if they don't go at that price then they can stay here. I can sell them later or they can be mutton after rearing their lambs. No problem. Why should I sell them for peanuts if I don't have to?
Just because the bloke up the way runs more sheep than he can keep all year round finds himself stuck between a rock and a hard place doesn't mean we have to join him, cos trust me when the market recovers and commercials go for big money again I bet my flock he won't be giving a damn about little old me and my hobby sheep then :D
Likewise no offence meant ;)
-
I feel sorry for the farmers. If the ewes are in lamb you cannot slaughter, and if there is nowhere for them to go, what is the poor bloke going to do? I have no wish to offend anyone, but feel frustrated as i am surrounded by pony paddocks, and have no way to rent more land.
I think you have summed it up yourself there.
If you keep 00's head of sheep and rely on sending a good proportion to market, then you will always be at the mercy of the mart.
Or you can be seriously looking into sending them away deadweight. Seems like quite a good option for some.
Or you can be looking to add value...farmers markets etc.
The going rate is the going rate, such is farming.
-
Its a totally different game that we are in. The £40 ewes are the "tesco horse/beefburgers" of the sheepy world. If you run a rare breed flock then I really hope you're not going to try to compete with Tesco on the price you sell your meat at. Good, local, traceable rare-breed meat can be sold for a much higher price so it seems natural to me that the breeding stock command a higher price too.
-
Its a totally different game that we are in. The £40 ewes are the "tesco horse/beefburgers" of the sheepy world. If you run a rare breed flock then I really hope you're not going to try to compete with Tesco on the price you sell your meat at. Good, local, traceable rare-breed meat can be sold for a much higher price so it seems natural to me that the breeding stock command a higher price too.
Good, commercial in-lamb ewes are good stock. Often, rare-breed sheep command a much lower price than commercials, as it goes - it just depends whats trendy at the moment. Shetlands are good sheep, but a ewe wouldnt make much more than £40. I doubt good local rare breed meat can be sold at much (and I sell it) more than supermarkets are asking, because the price of lamb to the consumer hasn't changed, it is still bloody expensive.
-
A friend of mine sold some "rare" breeds at the local market last year. Older ewes, but no-one wanted them. £10 each! Farmers dont have the luxury of saying il just wait until the fields are not flooded anymore, il just keep on feeding them. ???
-
I've seen hebs going for £8/head at Salisbury and a pen of mixed littler sheep (maybe soays?) going for £4 - ewe lambs, born this year.
They had been entered for sale by what sounded like organisations funded through visitors etc and I guess just wanted rid and didnt care what they got as tourist season was over.
-
I think you are right Steve, I keep shetland crosses and though I make a wee bit back selling meat to family. I couldn't compete with the big boys. But that is just it... I don't want to ;)
If I wanted to produce a lamb 'crop' that earned me my keep in a commercial setting would I have the sheep I keep now? Never!
But going back to my 2 spare ewes a minute..
They are Ideal hobby sheep. They lamb easily, they are very pretty to look at, they have wonderful fleeces for spinners etc and the skins tan up like a dream. They are extra tasty and in convenient sized packages.
Most of these things are of no importance to you probably, but to me I would rather have the good fleeces and colours rather than say a finished beast at 16 weeks.
So my crossbred primitives are worth £50 a head to me, and if someone wants one of them (and there are a fair number that do for the same reasons, spinners etc) they will pay it. If they don't want to pay it they don't get the sheep. Simple!
To me the meat is almost the by product of my flock, to commercial shepherds it is their life blood.
It's almost like comparing apples and rocks!
I am looking forward to running a few commercial type lambs this year, for the experience more than anything. But also because I have a lady who has already asked for 3 whole big lambs for her freezer. What she is after, my little girls couldn't ever produce. But when the same lady wants to pay £60 for unusual sheepskins, I wouldn't be looking at a commercial breed for those.
We all want different things from our flocks, and if someone has something you want badly enough you pays your money :thumbsup:
-
P.s its the winter, not spring. And people are trying to save money on their food budget. Not everyone can spend 6 quid on 2 lamb chops, because they are local, and come from the local "trendy deli/farm shop :innocent:
-
I think you are right Steve, I keep shetland crosses and though I make a wee bit back selling meat to family. I couldn't compete with the big boys. But that is just it... I don't want to ;)
If I wanted to produce a lamb 'crop' that earned me my keep in a commercial setting would I have the sheep I keep now? Never!
But going back to my 2 spare ewes a minute..
They are Ideal hobby sheep. They lamb easily, they are very pretty to look at, they have wonderful fleeces for spinners etc and the skins tan up like a dream. They are extra tasty and in convenient sized packages.
Most of these things are of no importance to you probably, but to me I would rather have the good fleeces and colours rather than say a finished beast at 16 weeks.
So my crossbred primitives are worth £50 a head to me, and if someone wants one of them (and there are a fair number that do for the same reasons, spinners etc) they will pay it. If they don't want to pay it they don't get the sheep. Simple!
To me the meat is almost the by product of my flock, to commercial shepherds it is their life blood.
It's almost like comparing apples and rocks!
I am looking forward to running a few commercial type lambs this year, for the experience more than anything. But also because I have a lady who has already asked for 3 whole big lambs for her freezer. What she is after, my little girls couldn't ever produce. But when the same lady wants to pay £60 for unusual sheepskins, I wouldn't be looking at a commercial breed for those.
We all want different things from our flocks, and if someone has something you want badly enough you pays your money :thumbsup:
Actually - I'm quite interested in using shetland crosses in a commercial sense. I know someone that puts Shetlands to a wilts horn - all the 1st crosses shed. They look awful apparently - small, bony looking sheep, but have wide hips, dont need doing for strike as they shed and are pretty resistant to worms. Get some very rough (well fenced) grazing for cheap or no money, put those crosses to the Beltex and raise a 150% lamb crop with virtually no effort. Jobs a good'un.
-
P.s its the winter, not spring. And people are trying to save money on their food budget. Not everyone can spend 6 quid on 2 lamb chops, because they are local, and come from the local "trendy deli/farm shop :innocent:
Well, exactly - the price to the consumer in the supermarket hasn't dropped, its just that the high prices 2011 meant they started buying NZ but charging the same money.
Lamb is pretty damn expensive, and even your 'commercial' lamb is pretty ununterfered with and wont command the same niche money as chicken or pork.
-
Actually - I'm quite interested in using shetland crosses in a commercial sense. I know someone that puts Shetlands to a wilts horn - all the 1st crosses shed. They look awful apparently - small, bony looking sheep, but have wide hips, dont need doing for strike as they shed and are pretty resistant to worms. Get some very rough (well fenced) grazing for cheap or no money, put those crosses to the Beltex and raise a 150% lamb crop with virtually no effort. Jobs a good'un.
;D
I should have said my crosses were castlemilks x shetlands and that THEY would be of no use to someone such as yourself.
But then having said that my 50% Castlemilk x shetlands shed there fleece entirely.. I wonder what their daughters would be like if crossed to a Wilts.... :thinking: :thinking: :D
-
Some of the pedigree sheep societies have "upset" prices for sheep sold at their official auctions. These are prices below which the auctioneer will not accept a bid. The sheep offered will be registered, pedigree and have passed a veterinary inspection on arrival at the market. This both encourages farmers to bring their good stock to the sale, knowing they won't get rubbish prices, and provides an assurance for the buyers. You pays your money and you takes your choice .....
-
I think also this winter has been really difficult for farmers- if your fields are flooded, you're running out of hay/straw and you can't bring all of your sheep in, I guess they must pick their best, younger ewes and send the rest off for whatever they can get for them.
Next winter will be even worse what with all of the winter corn that's been drilled and hasn't come through but that's a completely different thread topic in itself.
-
I agree. We normally leave the turnout field ungrazed from the end of August, to give the ewes a good bite after lambing, but grass growth has been so slow this winter, due to both waterlogged roots and low light levels, that they've been on it for the last week and brought into the shed at night, as an attempt at reaching a balance between eating the hay stocks and pugging the land. We grazed the hoggetts on a neighbour's 3 fields through last Winter but the grazing ran out at Christmas this year.
-
A poor quality sheep costs just as much to feed as a good one and more to put right.
We won't put our sheep though the market, mainly because what ever any one says there is prejudice against the rare breeds by the commercial boys. I have never had a farmer feel sorry for me because the market price of a rare breed Ryeland Tup wasn't in the thousands that the Swaledale Tup breeders get, (luck money or no luck money). There is and always be mass market and niche market and disease and bad weather and ill luck and poor choices can affect anyone. When there is less reliance on subsidy and more reliance on actual market value then I might give a grudging thought of sympathy to the big boys.
-
Depends what you mean by "big boys". A hillside in Wales might support hundreds of outdoor lambing ewes producing lamb on ground otherwise too poor for food production, but if you don't have housing and are having to buy in hay or feed because of the atrocious weather conditions, your profit margin this year will be eroded to almost nothing.
-
Theres plenty of people producing lamb without subsidy.
You pick your breeds accordingly. If pedigree whatevers are not useful commercial sheep, dont be surprised if commercial farmers dont pay top money for them. Yes, a lot of money gets passed round some tup breeders, but thats a whole different game - it usually stays within a 'circle' of breeders until someone is brave/foolish enough to buy into that who is not part of the cartel.
I'm a commercial sheep farmer and I have never paid over £600 for a tup - I dont think many people do.
If you wanted to attract commercial money, youd have picked a commercial breed - there are plenty small sheep producers who do, and breed Texels or Beltex, Suffolks, Hampshires, Lleyns etc and make good money doing it.
No point in buying a flock of Ryelands knowing full well that they are not what the commercial market wants and then feeling annoyed because they fetch nothing at market.
-
True. We're very keen to help conserve rare and traditional breeds of all classes of stock and are about the only ones in our area so we have a bit of a monopoly. We put our Badger Face (which is classed as a traditional breed rather than a rare one) to our Southdown tups every other year and this produces a good commercial carcase to sell at market. We also hire out registered SD tups, mostly to smallholders who don't want a ram on the place all year, or to commercial farmers who're tired of lambing difficulties and high feed costs due to using Continental breeds and want to try a native breed again. Horses for courses, I guess.
-
The OP was indicting those who raise rare breeds on a small scale for not lowering our prices out of sympathy with commercial large scale producers. I sincerely doubt any Ryeland breeder is "feeling annoyed" the commercial market are biased against them, which is why it seems absurd that a non-rare breeds sheep farmer would seem annoyed that with in the private selling arena we too can command decent prices.
The Tup Cartels artificially inflate the perceived price of a tup and in a far more exaggerated way than Ryeland, or any other minority, breeders ever could inflate the price of the breed across the board.
As I said previously "There is and always be mass market and niche market and disease and bad weather and ill luck and poor choices can affect anyone."
-
Please don't forget also that there is a larger purpose behind the keeping of rare and minority/traditional breeds, which is ultimately to the benefit of those who rear sheep as their livelihood. This is the preservation of traditional breeds through times, such as now, when they are not popular commercially. You may say that they are rare for a reason, implying there is something wrong with these breeds, but they are simply out of fashion or, more likely currently inappropriate for today's needs. The reason they need to be preserved is so that when conditions change, as they are doing all the time - climate, customer preferences, shepherding, a wool market and so on - the rare breeds will be there ready and waiting to have their now appropriate characteristics available to breed into commercial stock. This might be better feet, a double coat (if wool prices were to go down even more and allowing the new crosses to survive better outdoors all year), a short tail ( less prone to flystrike), ease of lambing (the northern shorttails have a wider pelvis for their size than other breeds so tend to lamb more easily), good and quick mothering (where shepherding costs may become too high to be able to intervene at current rates), finer or coarser fleece (depending on the market - remember how the fashion for wood floors has shrunk the carpet market), there are all sorts of traits within the rarer breeds, which were developed in different times, which will be of benefit to future sheep breeds - remember the Suffolk which was developed from the Norfolk Horn.
Breeders of these traditional breeds need to be able to live too, by selling their stock.
However, the price for meat sheep is bound to be less than that for pedigrees of whatever breed, and the price for poorly animals will be less than for good strong healthy ones. Most breeders of the rare breeds are raising stock primarily to sell on as breeding stock, and selling the meat of those that don't make the grade is a secondary product.
The vast majority of those raising rare etc breeds are not doing it to have a couple of pet sheep (which are usually not bred from) but are serious breeders raising good quality stock for other breeding enterprises. So comparing the prices of pedigree sheep, of whatever breed, with prices of meat sheep, again of whatever breed, is not comparing like for like. Pouring scorn on one type of enterprise against another just because you are unfamiliar with it is non-productive - both types of sheep enterprise are equally valid, but different.
-
This is all true -
What I am saying is, you should probably know your market before you decide on a breed. Its no good buying something non commercial and feeling people are 'prejudiced' against your breed if you choose to sell at mart. I have kept (and still keep) rare (ish) breed sheep, and I know I won't get top money at mart for my lambs (although Wilts Horns don't do to badly these days usually about £10/head less than commercial type lambs).
However, I have chosen my market/plan carefully - I know I am going to be selling the vast majority of my lambs at market and so in my final phase of my "glorious three-year plan", have put my commercial (woolshedding) ewes to a suftex. I still now produce pure Wilts and polled woolshedders as replacements, but I will target these differently.
Small flocks of rare breeds will also have to target their market carefully. I think it is a very good thing that people are choosing to keep minority breeds going, I did exactly the same thing when I started. I see the sheep industry as a whole entity though and I never felt any 'us and them' compared to commercial sheep farmers.
One thing I do hope though is that owners of rare breeds do take a look at the place of their breed within the system and keep them accordingly. Its much better, for example, if you were keeping primitives to try and approximate as best you can the niche they fit into. For example: when I do get round to hatching my cunning Wilts/Shetalnd plan, I will be looking for shetlands that are lambed outside, preferably kept on poor ground and are not caked.
-
At the end of the day, an animal is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it.
Alot of it is down to where you choose to sell your sheep. If you have a rare/unusual/primitive breed, you are wasting your time taking them to the local weekly sale. You will get very little for them. You will have to take them either to a specialist rare breed sale, or sell privately.
-
This is all true -
One thing I do hope though is that owners of rare breeds do take a look at the place of their breed within the system and keep them accordingly. Its much better, for example, if you were keeping primitives to try and approximate as best you can the niche they fit into. For example: when I do get round to hatching my cunning Wilts/Shetalnd plan, I will be looking for shetlands that are lambed outside, preferably kept on poor ground and are not caked.
Absolutely. This is the main reason for my reservations about showing rare breeds, which can end up with generations living in soft conditions just to keep them winning top prizes. Then they get to the point where they no longer show the original hardy and thrifty traits of the breed. It's a bit of a quandary though, as showing brings the breed to the notice of others, which in turn helps increase their popularity.
We are lucky to live at altitude and keep our Hebs outdoors all year round, and many of our breeding stock customers come to us because of that, so there are plenty of breeders who see the importance of maintaining conditions similar to the original ones for the breed. We do lack salt spray though ;D
We recently bought two Shetland gimmers which are lovely specimens and came from close by, but they are on the large side so I will watch with interest how they do in our climate. So far they are eating for about 6......... It will be interesting too to see how future generations turn out (these two are white which might explain their size; we have kept only coloured Shetlands before)
-
Perhaps if some of the rare breed keepers were more concerned with promoting the breed, and their qualities, and less concerned with how much money they can charge, or how many shows they can win, the sheep might be less of a rare breed, and more available to everyone. This could only be a good thing surely? :innocent:
-
Out of curiosity Thenovice how do you think minority breeders selling at prices our market will buy, as opposed commercial produces selling through the general auction marts differs ? Are you suggesting the commercial producer is going to say "nay lad that's too much here have this animal cheaper"
Do you perhaps think that agricultural shows, some how don't count as a means by which the qualities of farm livestock is promoted. Or that only minority breeds are shown ?
-
I should have said my crosses were castlemilks x shetlands and that THEY would be of no use to someone such as yourself.
But then having said that my 50% Castlemilk x shetlands shed there fleece entirely.. I wonder what their daughters would be like if crossed to a Wilts.... :thinking: :thinking: :D
[/quote]
Hi Colliewoman, I have Castlemilks and am wondering whether to cross with Shetlands. I can get a Shetland tup locally no problem, whereas I am finding it quite difficult to find an unrelated Castlemilk tup... Didn't realise they would shed their fleece either :D How do you find the Castlemilk Crosses in comparison to Castlemilk through n through?
-
Come on, lets be honest, im not a proper shepherd/farmer, its not my main source of income. And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep. If the market prices rise and fall, its not the end of the world for them. If someone wants to pay £250 for a mini, primitive fashionable sheep, wait 18mnths for a 10- 15 kilo low fat super healthy carcase, and they have the money to do it, then thats fine. But dont pretend charging those prices is for the good of the breed. Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production. And yes, i do have sympathy for all the farmers who are struglling at the minute, and to say its all about subsides is ridiculous!
-
I should have said my crosses were castlemilks x shetlands and that THEY would be of no use to someone such as yourself.
But then having said that my 50% Castlemilk x shetlands shed there fleece entirely.. I wonder what their daughters would be like if crossed to a Wilts.... :thinking: :thinking: :D
Hi Colliewoman, I have Castlemilks and am wondering whether to cross with Shetlands. I can get a Shetland tup locally no problem, whereas I am finding it quite difficult to find an unrelated Castlemilk tup... Didn't realise they would shed their fleece either :D How do you find the Castlemilk Crosses in comparison to Castlemilk through n through?
:wave: :wave:
I have never kept pure Castlemilks but the crosses are adorable! Though they shed their fleece, I rooed mine out and have usable fleece in lovely colours!
I bred mine as ewe lambs to a shetland tup and they did their single lambs very well. The Boys were born in mid April and though small (compared to big white jobs) I sent them for slaughter (killed out at 12kg) in November and they were :yum: :yum: :yum: Also the lambskins are delightful.
Not all of the crosses will shed, just as not all shetlands will shed. But certainly all of mine would :thumbsup:
I am picking up 2 more soon, they look far more shetland and have a very think fleece #(looking forward to putting a Gotland ram across those!)
What is it you are wanting from your sheep?
I am trying to get the good all rounder for someone like myself. So I want;
Good doers, not needing much feeding (I wouldn't be caking at all if I hadn't had a monumental grazing cock up and had to wait 4 months for the grass I should have had in August ::) )
Good feet, The CM x Shetlands or their lambs have NEVER needed aa foot trim :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Lovely fleeces, I spin, felt, will be weaving i use fleece as insulation etc etc.
Tasty meat, and regardless to anyone else's opinion I much prefer the taste of the primitives who's fat is marbled throughout the meat rather than in a layer around it.
Easy to handle. I just shout and they come running :D
Also my back is officially rubbish so I cannot sensibly keep a lot of big sheep. If one of mine refused to be led I can simply pick it up and move it ;)
Now this might seem like the biggest waste of time for a breeding enterprise, but I'm not breeding my sheep and experimenting with crosses for anyone else. I am trying to produce an animal that can give me everything I need in my strive to be as self sufficient as possible.
I would say try the cross, If you don't like the out come eat them and try a castlemilk the following year!
I would say though, if you do breed pure then register the offspring. Unregistered progeny are usless when it comes to safeguarding a breed in times of crisis ;)
-
Come on, lets be honest, im not a proper shepherd/farmer, its not my main source of income. And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep. If the market prices rise and fall, its not the end of the world for them. If someone wants to pay £250 for a mini, primitive fashionable sheep, wait 18mnths for a 10- 15 kilo low fat super healthy carcase, and they have the money to do it, then thats fine. But dont pretend charging those prices is for the good of the breed. Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production. And yes, i do have sympathy for all the farmers who are struglling at the minute, and to say its all about subsides is ridiculous!
But no one is claiming to be breeding rare breeds for purely meat production??? (not that I have seen) and I don't know anyone that would buy or sell an animal for £250 to put it in the freezer ???
But before you judge the prices charged for some breeds, Imagine you are breeding an animal that 25 years ago was almost extinct. Just because they are rare doesn't mean you can keep everything as a breeding animal. Take the Castlemilk Moorit as an example. Try finding a GOOD QUALITY unrelated ram. They are like hens teeth and when they come along of course the breeder will charge sensible money for it. They mall have culled 150 to get one good enough to sell/use. That's what happens when you bring something back from the brink.
No one would bat an eyelid at spending 100's on a good breeding animal of a commercial type. Rare breed people are surely allowed the same pride in their stock are they not?
Or is it a rip off because it's not big and white??
And no I am not anti farming, not at all. I was brought up farming and continue to this day with beef cattle for a friend. But I chose something different for me and if in years to come I realise my dream sheep then I will ask fair money for them if I sell any because I have already shed blood sweat and tears getting to this stage and I am a loooong ways off being near my goal.
But if you don't like them or think they are worth it then simply don't buy them ;)
I don't know how to express what I mean and hope this hasn't come across as argumentative as it isn't intended like that. But most of us work just as hard as the big enterprises at breeding the best animal we can for whatever purpose we have chosen and it seems a little unfair that we should be penalised for choosing something other than commercial meat animals :-\
-
Thank you CW for putting into words my thoughts - my wee CM and Shetland flock are my pride and joy - not commercial but part of my life - I hope to produce good lambs, good fleeces and work on my small flocks
If only I had £250 for a ewe!!!!!!!!
-
No offence taken or intended, i just like a bit of healthy debate :innocent: . I know there are alot of decent people out there breeding and selling quality stock, but as with all walks of life there are plenty trying to shift their dross at inflated prices. If you dont really know what you are looking at or just starting out, these people can see us coming a mile out! Horses for courses i know, but sadly prices are on the way down. I wish you all a relatively stress free lambing, and il be praying for dry weather :wave:
-
Come on, lets be honest, im not a proper shepherd/farmer, its not my main source of income. And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep. If the market prices rise and fall, its not the end of the world for them. If someone wants to pay £250 for a mini, primitive fashionable sheep, wait 18mnths for a 10- 15 kilo low fat super healthy carcase, and they have the money to do it, then thats fine. But dont pretend charging those prices is for the good of the breed. Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production. And yes, i do have sympathy for all the farmers who are struglling at the minute, and to say its all about subsides is ridiculous!
Thenovice - I have been trying to work out just what it is you object to? Is it the people you imagine have more money than you? Is it the prices you imagine are being achieved for rare breeds?
What do you mean when you say: 'Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production'? It seems to me that you are doing just that - comparing pedigree rearing of breeding stock to rearing sheep for meat. What's not real about raising breeding stock? How do you think the Texel tup which sold at Lanark for £43,000 was bred? Not by someone who only raised meat sheep, but by someone who had two parts to his farming business - meat and breeding stock. I think he would call himself a real farmer.
Which particular rare breed of sheep did you see selling for £250, where and when? or are you just trying to stir it? Why would it not be worth £250 if it was a good sheep?
Which breeds are you thinking of when you say they produce a 10-15kg carcase at 18 months? Many rare breeds of sheep are big animals and some are small, but there are only a couple of breeds which would produce such a small carcase and as I have already pointed out, their main purpose in life is not to produce meat.
I think it's time you were more specific in your comments instead of waving vague unsupported figures around. Posters are trying to discuss your post sensibly so please stick to the facts, essential for a proper debate.
<<And i would imagine that a lot of rare breed keepers and enthusiasts on here had the land and disposable income first, and then decided to get sheep.>>
Really? I certainly haven't gained that impression from members of this forum. There may be some who made a fortune in the City before retiring to raise sheep in an idyllic country dream (and why not if that's what they want), but far more it seems are honest, hard-working smallholders. Your comment is pure prejudice - perhaps you have a big chip on your shoulder?
Some of the rare breeds do make good prices, including Ryelands, Kerry Hill etc (or they did last time I was at a mart) but why shouldn't they? They are hefty and beautiful sheep. I get the impression that you are envious because you have chosen the wrong breed. It's easy enough to change.
<<there are plenty trying to shift their dross at inflated prices>> I have just seen your latest post after I posted this. Caveat Emptor - as you say, there are plenty of chancers out there, but they are most definitely not restricted to breeders of rare breed sheep, which is where you began this thread.
-
Ouch! :D I did say some breeders in my first post
-
What do you mean when you say: 'Its not proper farming and you cant compare it to meat production'? It seems to me that you are doing just that - comparing pedigree rearing of breeding stock to rearing sheep for meat. What's not real about raising breeding stock? How do you think the Texel tup which sold at Lanark for £43,000 was bred? Not by someone who only raised meat sheep, but by someone who had two parts to his farming business - meat and breeding stock. I think he would call himself a real farmer.
And its this breeder, who I assume is selling a cabbage and barley stuffed approxiation of a ram who I'd have the most 'problem' with. I can't ever see show ring champs like this being good for sheep farming in general.
I once spoke to a terminal sire breeder and was alarmed at the number of ceasars he deemed normal...and they wonder why more and more people are buying on EBVs etc....
-
Ditto to fleece wife and CW's reply. My reply disappeared into space.
I think the novice should provide the example he is referring to as obviously he/she has tried to buy something and had their fingers burnt or nearly.
-
I'm with you on that one Fleecewife. Every breeding ram I sell or hire is generally around one tenth of the ram lambs produced in the year of his birth. It's a constant selection process through the year. Not everyone will care that much whether they're getting an all round, top quality animal for their money, but some do. And I do.
-
Mini sheep like oussants sell for silly money, why? Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why? Im sorry, but playing about with fancy lawnmowers doesnt make you a serious sheep farmer/breeder. Rare breed sheep, that were hardy and bred with survival of the fittest in mind, are now stuffed full of cake, brought into lovely warm sheds when it starts to get a little chilly, medicated at the slightest sniffle and cuddled to death. Who bought micro pigs at silly prices??? Im a terrier man aswell, and i love my patterdales, but now they are getting popular and fashionable, puppies cost you £300 - £400. WHY? A proper Patt from a real terrierman, who loves and cares for his workers, will be half that price. Some have never sold a dog in their life! They love their breed! Whos buying all these sheep at inflated prices, the same people who get sucked in a\nd then breed to more likeminded folk, thus perpetuating this farce. Fixed prices at breed shows make it seem that this is the going rate.
-
sheep at the mo dawn to 60 pound from 85 not good .I have 200 ewes i pay the best price for a ram last September i bought the best in show . Most people keep there best stock if some are for sale then a fare price is needed , last November the price was dawn i still have last ya res stock to sell .November sale es in dingwall i sold some old stock there was a woman that put 5 ewes in there were very good looking when i spoke to her she said they were nice girls and hoped for a good price they were in fantastic condition so i bought them well over price but they were good stock ,so a good price for a good animal . and the comments from fleecewife is dead on most members help each other to improve stock .
-
The micro-pigs issue is more to do with what's in fashion at the time, and I suspect this might be the case for many breeds of animal - especially with dogs and the breed such as the cockerpoo etc. I think it is crazy what people will pay nowadays for a crossbreed puppy, just because they have seen various celebrities carrying the same breed of puppy around in a handbag. Breeding animals such as the teacup yorkie does nothing for the original Yorkshire Terrier breed but it seems the current trend is to breed something as tiny as possible with any health aspects of the animal going out of the window.
At the end of the day it is all down to personal choice - mine being that I am more than happy with my closed flock of crossbreed ewes and my crossbreed dogs that have cost me what I am prepared to pay for a crossbreed dog. I have never considered paying more than what I think a lurcher pup is worth, despite many lurcher breeders now thinking they can charge ridiculous money for their pups. I will also never pay more than what I think a sheep is worth at the time and I personally think that £43,000 for a texel tup is stupid money, however well bred it is. However, if someone has the money and feels it is well spent on such an animal, then that's their choice. :innocent:
It's all about what the individual likes, what they want to pay and what they like looking at in their fields. I Paid £175 for my Hampshire Down ram lamb in August and £198 for a shearling Suffolk ewe with suffolk x charollais ewe lamb in Feb 2012 and that fits within my ideas of what is right for my set-up. I am not keeping sheep in the hope of making a fortune, I just enjoy them as a hobby and maybe make a small profit to cover my costs (although this rarely happens!). ;D I also don't think it is always the case that rare breeds make a lot of money - you only have to look at websites such as preloved, to see many rare and minority breeds being offered cheaply.
-
Mini sheep like oussants sell for silly money, why? Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why?
You might like to know that if you check out the local french site many ouessants are sold for around 50 euros . The french breed society starter price for a to standard sheep with parentage is around 150 euros beyond that you will pay higher pricers for animals that have rare bloodlines and or rarer genetics. Nothing like prices that have been asked in the UK.
With regards to Mini sheep as a breed the Ouessant has never been miniaturised and was reared as a dual purpose breed for both meat and fleece its size actually commanded HIGHER prices on the meat market as they were able to graze the salt estuaries places that large commercial breeds couldn't not produce on The breed was born out of economic necessity in areas where pasture and lifestyle was extremely poor and profitability was everything. As fleecewife has pointed out heritage breeds especially primitives may have fallen out of favour and are in need of re-inventing themselves if they are to stay in the market but their value is in the conservation of the genetics. And offer variability in a market place where for example and this is one statistic that scares the hell out of me in the herfordshire cattle despite the large numbers world wide they represent genetically a population value of fifty individuals!
-
Down here a soay ewe from a trendy breeder will cost you £90 or more, why?
Why not?? How much do you think she should be worth as a pedigree breeding animal??
I know for a FACT If I was to buy her I could make my money back by selling her as mutton!
If you don't think she is worth the money, don't buy her!
If you are frustrated because you are surrounded by pony paddocks and can't rent more land it ain't the fault of the soay breeder that's for sure! Unless of course they are on ground you want to rent? ;) ;D
-
Well said collie woman!
-
If you are frustrated because you are surrounded by pony paddocks and can't rent more land it ain't the fault of the soay breeder that's for sure! Unless of course they are on ground you want to rent? ;) ;D
You can get round this by renting blocks of 100 ac or more. :P
-
Wow, thats got to be some expensive mutton. Do you keep it in the wine cellar, next to the truffles? :P . Pony paddocks? Has someone been reading my old posts? :thinking: As soon as an animal stops doing the work it was bred for and becomes a pet, thats when the health problems start, and the prices start to rocket! It has happened to dogs, and now sheep. Sorry, have i hit a nerve? I rent my grazing, and keep sheep and pigs for meat and pleasure. I dont have lots of acres to run a petting zoo. Maybe i should start running a few primitives, sounds like there are lots out there who are willing to pay. I might make a bob or two! :innocent:
-
What a strange thread this is ???
Different people will value their stock at different prices. People will either be willing to pay or not.
Contact the Soay Sheep Society and ask what would be a sensible/ going price to pay. There maybe good reasons why some people are able to charge more and others less or maybe wishful thinking. It's surely the same with most things that are purchased ..... dogs, cats sheep, cars
-
I feel sorry for the farmers. If the ewes are in lamb you cannot slaughter, and if there is nowhere for them to go, what is the poor bloke going to do? I have no wish to offend anyone, but feel frustrated as i am surrounded by pony paddocks, and have no way to rent more land.
Sorry I kinda thought it was summat to do with your issue about rare breeds as it was one of your first reply to the thread you started??
You haven't hit a nerve with me, like I said your opinion, nor anyone else's makes the slightest bit of difference to the way I keep/breed/sell my sheep, I thought you liked the lively debate?
I will admit to finding this thread bizarre and still don't actually get what your gripe is, but then no matter.
Wine cellar and truffles?? I suspect I am as far the opposite to that as it is possible to be :roflanim: . Mate I don't even have a house let alone a cellar!
My sheep make me zero money, they probably pay for themselves in a good year. But I don't have them to produce cash. I have them to produce stuff I need/use.
-
It started off as a comment, and then its sort of changed as more and more people voiced their opinion. I have to confess, i am a little bit of a wind up merchant, and some comments were said with tongue firmly in cheek :innocent: . It has certainly been a popular thread, and i still stand by my original comment, im amazed at the prices SOME rare sheep breeders will charge, and value their stock at. I repeat, no offence intended, and all the best with lambing folks :fc:
-
It started off as a comment, and then its sort of changed as more and more people voiced their opinion. I have to confess, i am a little bit of a wind up merchant, and some comments were said with tongue firmly in cheek :innocent: . It has certainly been a popular thread, and i still stand by my original comment, im amazed at the prices SOME rare sheep breeders will charge, and value their stock at. I repeat, no offence intended, and all the best with lambing folks :fc:
No offence taken here at least :-*
Good luck with lambing also :fc:
-
Well I've just read the whole thread and take it the main issue is the cost of purebed sheep, but people have in the main always paid more for pedigree animals than crossbreeds be it dogs, cats, horses, sheep, or whatever - and also silly money for 'in vogue' crosses but at the end of the day an animal is only worth what someone will pay for it! Responsible breeders will be looking into bloodlines, breeding for type, choosing stock wisely so they can continue with the best attributes of that breed. If I could afford to pay a lot of money for a pedigree sheep I would do my research and make sure I was getting a good specimen. If you pay an inflated price for a poor sample you only have yourself to blame! Same would apply to any other animal I was buying.
-
I do know of a certain breeder who sets his prices according to either 'poshness of accent' on the 'phone or 'shininess/newess of car/trailer' when they come to look at the sheep.... :innocent:
-
I like that :roflanim:
-
I do know of a certain breeder who sets his prices according to either 'poshness of accent' on the 'phone or 'shininess/newess of car/trailer' when they come to look at the sheep.... :innocent:
When people like that come to look at pigs we generally find the rule.......all the gear and no idea....fits perfectly or the other local saying all fur coat and nowt in the fridge fits too and they expect their stock to live on fresh air and excitement ::) Wish we could get better prices for pigs but that a whole new other thread...............................
mandy :pig:
-
I do know of a certain breeder who sets his prices according to either 'poshness of accent' on the 'phone or 'shininess/newess of car/trailer' when they come to look at the sheep.... :innocent:
Don't think it's only sheep breeders who do that! ::)
-
I have a small rare breed flock, Hebreans and Manx. They are terrific sheep, tough, hardy and amiable. They are unable to compete on commercial terms with a modern herd. They are not a modern herd they are different. They cannot be bought to lamb weight in five months, they are hoggets at sixteen months. They are a different meat with a different taste to lamb, much better. The animal has to be matured, it is five times older and needs to over-wintered. Once tasted people want more than we can produce the price cannot be that expensive. Mind you I have not seen the Tesco value range yet (whatever is in it)
-
Hebreans and Manx. 2 breeds i would love i went over to see the manx very nice breed .
-
I have a small rare breed flock, Hebreans and Manx. They are terrific sheep, tough, hardy and amiable. They are unable to compete on commercial terms with a modern herd. They are not a modern herd they are different. They cannot be bought to lamb weight in five months, they are hoggets at sixteen months. They are a different meat with a different taste to lamb, much better. The animal has to be matured, it is five times older and needs to over-wintered. Once tasted people want more than we can produce the price cannot be that expensive. Mind you I have not seen the Tesco value range yet (whatever is in it)
Cheapest lamb probably NZ frozen - so likely enough Rom, Highlander etc, grass finished.
It is hard to find poor quality lamb really - is mostly finshed outdoors and mostly eats grass, even if it is finished on concs.
I suppose 'value' is cull ewes, but I prefer an older animal to eat, personally.
-
Sorry, could someone please tell me where I can sell good quality pedigree Soay ewes for £90 a head?I think I have been under-charging!
-
Try kent mate, plenty of suckers round here! :innocent: