[Alistair]

Sally, Morris is from Working stock an wont work sheep, I've tried, I really have, thats why I got him in the first place (in my days as a shearer)

Julie is hopefully going to be a trials dog, her mum is isds registered, dd isn't but still working.

Mind Morris is very well adjusted obedience dog, I just hope Julie can work sheep so I've got a long wait and she's being kept away from sheep until he's 6 months, if she's any interest ill start her at 8 months

Agreed about Woking dogs and sheep I've handled a few working dogs with sheep and they amazing

I always look at it that ou won't go out and buy a Ferrari for our first car, ou wouldn't be able to control it and it'd go wrong very quickly, don't g&t a bc unless yo know way to expect

It's also sad how any bc end up in rescue centres because people don understand what they need

You can come out from behind h sofa as far as I'm concerned

[Alistair]

Apologies - from the look of my last post I have lost the ability to type and communicate in english

[WaltDisneyWorld]

On recall, try to only call him when you have a good chance of him returning to you. If he's sniffing around and focused elsewhere chances are he'll just ignore you and ideally you want a prompt response. They can then switch off to your voice and learn to ignore you. Hope that helps, good luck.

[in the hills]

   Knew it really SITN and Alistair, but thanks for spelling it out. Just a wee bit smitten. Have a high maintenance Flat Coated Retriever so do know what you mean and though I love them they wouldn't be the breed that I would recommend as family pets necessarily. Did gundog work and a bit of agility with my lad in order to help make him manageable and obedient enough to override his general "enthusiasm". Know collies are different and hard work in a different way as I look after my neighbours 20 collies occasionally ...... heart ruling head for a minute there    ...... thanks ...... sanity restored. Shall drool over Murphy, Morris and Julie.

[colliewoman]

As the owner of 2 collies, one who is scared of sheep (got her from a top welsh shepherd too!lol) and a 'finally getting round to training him' working dog who sleeps on the bed....
I have worked in 3 top boarding kennels and worked with hundreds of BC's

I have to say I agree with you Sally.


What I HATE HATE HATE is the trend for selling 'working collies' who's only work is agility.
Agility, flyball, canicross etc etc etc are all wonderful HOBBIES for a BC. But they are not and never will be work.
They are designed to run the hills thinking on their paws for mile after mile, hour after hour. Anything less is not work, just a mild distraction.




ITH if you think this is more than puppy love, you could have a collie and train it to sheep. If collies are a yearning you have, investigate further.
I am not encouraging you to choose on a whim, but many people don'tactually realise that they are perfectly capable of learning with their dog.
 I have yet to meet a true sheepdog enthusiast who didn't end up trying their dog on stock. Ask the pups owner if he would help you train the wee one if you were to have it. I never remember who has what but do you have sheep?
I never had sheep til I had a border collie! Now I have 2 addictions
 

[jaykay]

Well, I suppose mine are barely-working collies. But Skye does on occasion and the rest of the time the pair of them organise the ducks, hens and geese. They've come to an agreement with the goats - they leave them alone or Ellie headbutts them 

Plus they do always have sheep to watch and obsess about, even if they've not always allowed to tidy them up.

This is what Skye does if he gets out - gathers all the sheep into one corner, and then sits and admires the much more organised situation. I can tell he wonders why I allow sheep to be scattered all over the place when they could so easily be kept tidy 

[jaykay]

Recall:

Don't do it when they're distracted and you're likely to fail.

Insist a couple of times but if you're getting nowhere, don't keep going on - you're just training then to ignore you then.

Increase the distance very slowly - a foot away to begin with 

Do that whole, mad 'what a clever pup, what a good boy' squeaky-exited-voice stuff with your arms wide open and a lot of fuss when he comes. This then becomes a useful signal, so you can get a long recall, beyond the distance you could shout, by opening your arms wide while he's looking at you (whistle attracts the attention). Useful and it's cute 

When one of my half-grown 'bone-headed, nose trumps everything' lab pups seemed to forget about anything to do with a distance recall, I was taught to put her on a long length of washing line and firstly give her a gentle tug in my direction to remind her what she was supposed to be doing and then if no response, to 'reel her in', all the while making the sort of high-pitched, encouraging fuss as though she were the most amazing obedient pup and had chosen to do it herself. It worked and we got it sorted.

I add this last because Murphy seems to be becoming a 'nose' dog?

With a border collie of course, you  just go 'uh hem' which instantly makes them remember their manners 

[Alistair]

With a border collie of course, you  just go 'uh hem' which instantly makes them remember their manners 

  that's what I love about them

[plumseverywhere]

i think we will be buying some washing line! he really is a nose dog. Would love a dog that responds to uh hem!

[in the hills]

Plums, have you tried a really high squeaky "yippee" type noise, clapping hands and when he looks up, running away until you are out of sight. Okay, you look pretty stupid but it can often get their attention .... you have to be over the top dramatic just like when talking to a toddler.


When he is a bit older and can do stay, you can sit him in a narrow corridor/pathway (choose a spot where all he can do is come to you) and walk away backwards, holding up your hand. After a couple of seconds, do your joyous    recall. Increase distance and time before calling very slowly. Don't always recall but sometimes leave pup sitting and return and praise. Also walk backwards from pup sometimes just calling come, come,come for the length of the corridor with pup chasing you.


Perfect the recall in several different places at home before attempting anywhere else. Short lessons .... several times each day. When out and pup is free playing, recall but don't put back on the lead everytime. Pup soon associates "come" with the end of his free time. Recall, fuss/give treat if that is what he is keen on and then give command to "play" and let him go again. If you teach the word "play" your dog eventually won't just run off when let off the lead or car door opened but wait for your command ..... could be heel, stay, play etc.


It will come but sometimes it feels like it never will and sometimes they seem to have it but then "forget"    ask me how I know that one.

[in the hills]

Interesting CW and Jaykay. Yes, do have quite an interest in Collies. My friendly farmer  , who helps me with my sheep trains collies and sells them ..... his passion. He competes nationally .... well respected I believe and I love to watch them work and hearing about the process of training. Having trained gundogs I like the connection that training gives you to your dog and seeing the dog working. Have issues with shooting so only train now with dummies so can't take it too far but collies........ . But then my Soay may not take kindly or would they? I would have a good teacher. Not sure if the collie could learn to be a "housedog" though and don't want at the moment to kennel. My dog goes everywhere with me .... holiday, school, shops ..... he is a handful but training means he can contain himself just about    ..... could a collie do that?

[jaykay]

Oh yes, Skye would come everywhere with me given half a chance, and would be fine, and all my dogs live indoors.

If you get one, make sure you know the temperament of the parents. My two came from very friendly parents and are absolutely fine, love kids and people generally. Some collies of course are more nervous and snappy than this, so it does matter what sort of collie you get.

[SallyintNorth]

Yes, ith, a collie could do all that.  If you've a neighbour trains 'em and would let you work your dog on his sheep, plus the occasional light work on your own Soays, then I wouldn't have qualms about you having a collie.

Some working farm dogs are house dogs.  They do focus on their work better if they're not - but unless you have 00s or 000s of sheep, or want to compete at a high level, you don't really need that level of focus.  And unless they'll be working outside for hours upon hours in all weathers, being a bit 'soft' from living indoors won't hurt.

And yes, you can work primitives with a dog.  It takes a very calm steady unpressured approach, so I'd recommend training your collie on your neighbour's sheep and only start to work the Soays once s/he's good and settled. 

I drove the Castlemilk Moorit wethers with the dogs, but you have to keep the dogs way back and very calm. I spent many weeks just getting the sheep used to there being dogs in the field with them, then more weeks getting the dogs closer and lying down nearer to the sheep as they ate.  So by the time I needed to drive the sheep, they were used to the dogs and weren't scared of them - aware and a little apprehensive, so they'd move away from the dogs, but not running, boinging, jumping all the dykes scared! 

[SallyintNorth]

plums, I had a nose dog, a big black bitzer, great long legs and only enough brain to work the nose, really 

But her recall was 100%.  They just have to believe that anything you might want is so brilliant, it's worth lifting their head to see.  And then the actual recall has to be automatic - like jaykay, I use the raised arms to signal any dog that can see me to come to me.  And yes, it's very cute. 

[SallyintNorth]

Collies and snapping is a tough one.

The snap near the face or heels of a sheep is a tool of the trade for a working collie.  So it's an instinctual behaviour.  One from a good longstanding farm working strain will have the behaviour inbuilt.

For that reason amongst others I would not recommend a working collie as a house pet in a house with young children, or to live in any lifestyle where it will come into contact with young children.

Taking the snap and making it a bite, however, is trainable.  Most working shepherds need the collie to be prepared to take a grip when commanded to do so - and not otherwise.  Sometimes a bolshy sheep does just need an actual demonstration of why s/he is doing what the collie dog tells her/him.  In competition, the dog just has to know it could, and the sheep has to see that in its eyes - but if the dog does grip then it's instant disqualification.

Dot has a, "Go on - make my day" stare which usually does the trick!