[Small Farmer]

The thing that puzzles me is that in most of the farming and horticulture worlds a lot of effort is spent in trying to improve genetics while in the dog world the effort seems to be expended in trying to stay the same.

We've done a fair bit of socialising puppies for Hearing Dogs.  Every one has been different, and most have been crosses.  I'm guessing that they seek temperament as well as intelligence but they have gone down a very different path to the Guide Dogs for the Blind people

[Moleskins]

You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.

Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.

You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.

In an earlier post you laid into anyone who breeds a litter of pups from their dog as a one off type of arrangement.
Here you are putting words into my mouth, I've never advocated breeding dogs for the sake of it or for profit.
I have said I'm in favour of breeding dogs from good animals who have good traits that we would want to encourage or retain in a breed. If that dog is owned by an individual not a 'breeder' so be it.
My brother as I've said has a blind dog, bred by a breeder, taken by him from a rescue centre if you want to snipe at someone have a go at that breeder and rescue centre. Don't have a go at a complete stranger whose dog you don't know.

[sabrina]

I was not talking about people that will breed anything but the ones who breed and show or work their dogs. I know the foke who just do it for the money don't care. I have just had my 2 Shetland Stallions vetted over the last few months. Its expensive, they had to be DNA and everything about their health and tempermeant checked.  its something that no longer has to be done down to some  EU rule but I decided to have them checked. I know of one Stallion that cannot be shown as its so nasty but it sires foal .His offspring may end up as kids ponies if they are lucky or some French mans dinner. Breeding kittens and puppies has become a way of boosting the family income I think.

[robert waddell]

in the good old days there used to be a bull proving scheme all potential bulls had to pas it or it was curtains for them      now it is just the sales at the market that judge them  every one has a value on the hook and if they don't make that your breeding policy and stock-manship is crap  plus you have lost a rake of money

[Moleskins]

[/quote]

 MS -  You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.
[/quote]

Just for clarity, I'd included quotes from this thread which I felt linked to the point I was making.
The above quote was however directly aimed at me and puts words into my mouth, it's not on for
Doganjo to say that it's my view on anything,
My view is that dogs should be bred from suitable animals, who owns them is irrelevant.
At the outset I asked for advice on breeding from my bitch, I was immediately jumped on.
The thread and some PM's have provided me with great enlightenment, but not on how to
breed dogs.

[Small Farmer]

It should not be acceptable for such discussions to become bad-tempered and insulting.

This is normally a friendly forum where differing opinions should be able to be expressed.  No-one has a monopoly on the truth.

Dan?

[deepinthewoods]

surely its better for a debate to become fiery on a safe forum? opinions will always differ, sometimes its good to get down to the bone.


for my 2penneth, i dont see much difference between unwanted dogs being pts and any other bred animal being pts, the only difference is we dont eat dog. ive always fancied trying a spaniel sandwich. (thats a joke...btw)

[Sharnoak]

Forgive me if this sounds bad, but as long as my a#$E points to the ground there will always be people who breed their dogs because they think it's a money spinner, regardless of whether or not a piece of paper exists saying they 'can't'. Especially the small handbag types, crossbred and unchecked and easier to sell than something big-at least that has been my observation. And as long as Joe Public is prepared to hand over the dosh for these animals, the problem will exist. Even well bred dogs who have come from parents who have had all the health checks can end up as a rescue (going through one at the moment with a litter brother to by boy) because buyers either cannot or will not understand that a small cute fluffy puppy does NOT always stay that way!

[robert waddell]

rather the opposite   another free thinker

[Old Shep]

for my 2penneth, i dont see much difference between unwanted dogs being pts and any other bred animal being pts...

because dogs are companions not "stock" and they:

they are our eyes if we are blind, our ears if we are deaf and assist with little jobs when we are not very mobile
they tell us if we have cancer or about to have a fit
they find us when we are lost, in an avalanche, and save us from drowning,
they fight our wars for us and lay down their lives for us
help us find prey where we cannot and when they have it in their mouths bing it back to us- even when they are hungry
they work alongside us with our sheep and cattle gathering and herding that 10 men could never do
they find our sheep when they are lost or in 6 feet of snow
they help us catch our criminals
they ARE our best friends
and no matter what we do to them they are still prepared to love us.

Don't get me wrong I agree if a dog has been baldy bred or badly treated so much that it can never safely live with humans then there is only one answer.  But most of the hundreeds of thousands (no exageration) of healthy dogs pts each year in the UK are either perfectly nice pets or have nothing wrong with them that a bit of training and responsible dog ownership wouldn't put right.  They aren't just as cute and fluffy as a puppy 

Forgive me if this sounds bad, but as long as my a#$E points to the ground there will always be people who breed their dogs because they think it's a money spinner, regardless of whether or not a piece of paper exists saying they 'can't'. Especially the small handbag types, crossbred and unchecked and easier to sell than something big-at least that has been my observation. And as long as Joe Public is prepared to hand over the dosh for these animals, the problem will exist. Even well bred dogs who have come from parents who have had all the health checks can end up as a rescue (going through one at the moment with a litter brother to by boy) because buyers either cannot or will not understand that a small cute fluffy puppy does NOT always stay that way!

Yes Joe Public needs educating !!! 

[doganjo]

I have stayed out if this for some time as my blood rises at some of what I have read on this topic so I can no longer trust myself to type rationally.  But I agree so totally with what you have said Helen.  Thank you for putting it so well, so succinctly.

[robert waddell]

yes Joe public has got a lot to answer to     if they see some brainless celebrity with a designer dog or micro pig they start salivating at the mouth and as the price goes up they get even more desperate to have the lattest animal craze  and as long as there numties that are prepared to shell out hundreds of pounds and travel the length of the country to get them and there heart kicks in (o i just could not leave it there i travelled 300 miles i might as well buy one) you Will get breeders to produce the goods

[Small Farmer]

Stupid people buying and venal people selling.  Nothing changes then.

Did anyone hear the RSPCA have said there are 30,000 unwanted per rabbits - too expensive to keep for God's sake - so there's been a rush of re-homing places springing up.  To me that's a lost opportunity for a big casserole but perhaps its my turn to get into trouble. 

[in the hills]

  Yes indeeeeeed small farmer, put my pet rabbit in a casserole - now youre starting another heated discussion. 

I agree that people need educating about breeding dogs and also other animals, rabbits being a good example. They often end up living in awful conditions. It applies to lots of species. I understand some people may value dogs more than other species, other people on here may not.

Maybe this thread should be titled .... Dog Breeding ...... It is not just true pedigree breeding that is a problem. I know someone using their bitch to produce cross bred pups. Yes, it is for money and they are selling .... £200 each.

[Small Farmer]

I imagine that the production of such things as the Labradoodle falls right outside any restrictions a breeder may seek to impose.   Or is their a standard now?

We socialised one as a guide dog except that she was not a good learner and the house was knee-deep in the fur she shed continuously.  The idea that they don't shed was demonstrably untrue in her case.