[Moleskins]

You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.

Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.

[doganjo]

You are right that most new owners don't have the immediate intention of breeding but believe me the pound signs start flashing in some of their eyes when they get a bit short of money and they find they have a breed that sells easily.

Or they find they have a good dog who shows good traits for the breed and they would no more have it castrated / spayed than they would their son or daughter.
They are asked by people if they intend to have the dog bred as it's so good. At this point they completely forget that breeders like to hog things all to themselves and that the Kennel Club like to control everything in dog breeding.
Lay off judging dog owners and I'll lay off with my low opinion of breeders, details of which I've mentioned before.

Feel free, MS - I ONLY breed when I want to have a puppy of my own and have a full list of people waiting.  My dogs have proved themselves in show ring, work and health.  I personally have nothing to prove., and if I feel that a lot of people breed for money I will say so whether you like it or not.  It is my opinion.  I have never been able to breed for  money as I do things properly, but I do know some people who do it for cash - so perhaps my view is clouded by that. .  - Health tests, registrations, well bred and lined studs, good food, correctly made whelping boxes, regular vet treatment, well bred dogs to start with - these all cost money and lesser dogs can be bred for profit but they just populate an already full market - just look at the dogs in council pounds that are only allowed a week to be rehomed or found a new home - they are then either killed or if they are lucky they are noticed by a rescue society.  I don't object to anyone breeding at all if they do things right, but if they do they can't make money. You have your opinions, go ahead and promulgate the view that it is good that innocent dogs are killed so some human beings can profit from breeding more., That's fine with me, but it's not my idea of a fair world.

[sabrina]

I only have to look at my local gumtree adds to see people are breeding just for the money. so many cross bred puppies and a lot you would be taking a risk buying.

[robert waddell]

the more that is posted the more i am convinced that breeders are ring fencing there gravy train  if the produce has to be tested for health issues then there is an inherent fault in that breeding simple or is that just to simple
just where are you all you dog people coming from  a seller sells a pup that you have to have health checked then they come back and use it for stud purposes  so you buy a car and have an agreement that the previous owner can use it you sell your house and still want to stay in it occasionally what a screwed up world that would be
when we were looking for our initial dogs the amount of forking liars that are in this dog breeding they are born inside so why are they in a shed  stinking of shite and piss    used to children when the door opens they run for cover    o yes they are wormed  well that means they have a guy full of them    and the price they obviously think the more they ask the better there stinking mangy worm infested pups are going to be and you are left with the behavioral and subsequent health issues yes you will need a lot of money to persevere with something that should never have been born never mind mated
when i used to get the yellow paper they used to advertise get a pedigree for your dog just how the hell are they going to do that that wife's Labrador nicked by  farmer jocks collie then charge a fortune and have endorsements
Annie has these endorsements ever been challenged in court and has anybody ever got there money back plus costs for being sold a pup that had health issues

[doganjo]

the more that is posted the more i am convinced that breeders are ring fencing there gravy train  if the produce has to be tested for health issues then there is an inherent fault in that breeding simple or is that just to simple
just where are you all you dog people coming from  a seller sells a pup that you have to have health checked then they come back and use it for stud purposes  so you buy a car and have an agreement that the previous owner can use it you sell your house and still want to stay in it occasionally what a screwed up world that would be
when we were looking for our initial dogs the amount of forking liars that are in this dog breeding they are born inside so why are they in a shed  stinking of shite and piss    used to children when the door opens they run for cover    o yes they are wormed  well that means they have a guy full of them    and the price they obviously think the more they ask the better there stinking mangy worm infested pups are going to be and you are left with the behavioral and subsequent health issues yes you will need a lot of money to persevere with something that should never have been born never mind mated
when i used to get the yellow paper they used to advertise get a pedigree for your dog just how the hell are they going to do that that wife's Labrador nicked by  farmer jocks collie then charge a fortune and have endorsements
Annie has these endorsements ever been challenged in court and has anybody ever got there money back plus costs for being sold a pup that had health issues

You have just described EXACTLY the people that i believe should be stopped, Robert. So I agree with you there.  And in answer to the questions you ask about endorsements yes, and yes.

I'm not concerned if someone doesn't want to use endorsements -that's up to the person who breeds a litter - and anyone can do it - you could if your dogs are KC registered.  And as for health tests - these diseases are genetic - if you have your dog tested then they can't pass it on to progeny. If every dog was health tested even then mother Nature could still throw a googly and a problem arise, but if you do breed from healthy parents you have a much better chance of the pups being health - no it isn't simple.

[Old Shep]

I find this thread really interesting!

Robert and Doganjo - as two seemingly opposing camps would you agree with the following?

There are people breeding dogs who somehow should be prevented from breeding again because they breed too often, from inferior dogs and bitches and kept in appalling conditions?

There are too many puppies being born into the market, and so less appealing puppies or older dogs are being put down or thrown onto the streets and something should be done about it?

That these problems are being caused by "KC" breeders, "nonKC" breeders, "back street breeders" and puppy farms alike?

What can we do on a nationwide scale to improve this state of affairs?

Not asking so as to get you two reconciled (heaven forbid this forum would be boring then) but I have a keen interest.  Just got back from a seminar at the weekend on just this issue and what may be the start of a movement to do something about it, so keen to have your thoughts - and every one else's of course 

[robert waddell]

reconciled Shep i never knew that Annie and myself were at odds     it may come across as being at odds but then that is forums
just how do you overcome the problem by creating a cartel and price fixing  well that is in operation just now  at least to me and and my view of the kc    breeders   and endorsements
kc breeders want it all to themselves  there are just as good dogs out there that has the ability but lack the training my dogs are not kc registered but are in my opinion just as good as the neighbours trained agility dogs only difference is mine are priced at what we would pay for a pup    how many dog breeders can lay claim to breeding a mountain rescue dog  my neighbour my have won at crufts but cant lay claim to a mountain rescue dog under there belt and any that have done agility are at silver and going for gold
it is no wonder that the country is awash with pups just look at the money to be made on the back of the kc just as an example Irish wolfhounds 18 in a litter £1800 each
sensibility has to play a big part in this 

[YorkshireLass]

Does a pup have to pass any health or conformation test to receive its KC papers?

From what I gather, a KC registration only tells you that the parents are KC registered. It's a pointless bit of paper. So I don't "get" the distinction between "KC" breeders and "backyard" breeders - they can be the same person.

Compare to e.g. the ISDS where an eye test is part of the registration http://www.isds.org.uk/society/dog_registration/guide.html

I've no idea if other breed societies have their own registrations.

I tend to think in terms of:
 "money" breeders - any dog, any bitch, KC papers look good in the classifieds
 "working" breeders - have a good working spaniel, collie, terrier etc, breed for themselves, to replace dogs, for friends/acquaintances
"pedigree" breeders - breeding to pedigrees, possibly for showing, to get good examples of the breed etc.

The latter two categories would hopefully cover their own costs in breeding but it's not done for profit.

[Old Shep]

As far as I know (and I stand corrected if I'm wrong) KC papers with a pup just confirm that parents are KC registered, ie are pure bred and there's no "other breeds" in there since that breed was first registered, with the exception of rare approved outcrosses. 

I don't think it fair to blame the KC for the price of pups as they don't set the prices, breeders and buyers do this.  Also with all the designer mongrels such as oodles doodles prockers and poos etc commanded even higher prices than a purebred pup which are obviously not KC registered this puts the blame and squarely on the breeders and the buyers!

There are many good breeders out there who breed from sound good examples of the breed, fit for the job they are meant to do.  Some go down the KC route, some do not.  If I were to buy another Gordon setter I would look for a KC breeder, however if looking for a sheepdog I would actively avoid a KC registered border collie because I wouldn't want any show lines!  Or more likely look for a rescue :-)

But how can we stop the indiscriminate breeders such as the woman in our village who made her poor springer have 3 litters in 18 months!!! Just because it was easy income!
 

[doganjo]

But how can we stop the indiscriminate breeders such as the woman in our village who made her poor springer have 3 litters in 18 months!!! Just because it was easy income!

I don't know but that's what I'd want to do too.

The KC registration document will also show DNA results if they have been done, HD scores and I think eye test (not sure about that as my breed don't need those), in my breed they also show if it is a natural bobtail, if proof has been given of all of these.  There is a section of the KC website where you can check any dog for the relevant health tests having been done. Just type in the dog's KC name - this is Freckles my older bitch - http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx

[wellies]

the KC will not register some breeds if they suffer from a genetic diseases such as CLAD in the Irish Setter. All KC registered breeders must also under take all the health tests applicable to the breed. There is still room for lots of improvement but those measures should certainly be encouraged surely?

[sabrina]

I may be wrong with this but I think most stud animal may it be dog, bull, ram or stallion have to be the best of their breed to make any offspring worth selling. Maybe if people were a bit more interested in who has kids the world would not be so full of crime.

[doganjo]

I may be wrong with this but I think most stud animal may it be dog, bull, ram or stallion have to be the best of their breed to make any offspring worth selling. Maybe if people were a bit more interested in who has kids the world would not be so full of crime.

Sorry Sabrina but I don't think that is entirely true.  The responsible people will, certainly, but there are an awful lot of irresponsible ones.  Many people with a bitch they want to have serviced for moneymaking reasons will just find the cheapest dog to use.  There are websites where anyone can post a dog at stud, without needing any health checks or qualifications.   Joe Public doesn't bother about quality - they want a puppy, they go and see puppies, they buy a puppy -  puppies sell themselves because of the cuteness factor

[wellies]

you are so right. I recently wrote an article for an equine magazine about responsible breeding and the same principles should apply to all stock or pets. You ultimately should breed the best with the best to hopefully produce off spring which are fit for purpose and have the best possible chance of career longevity. Unfortuantely the same as with horses it is the dogs with behavioural or physical issues which often end up welfare cases. I could rant all day about the state of the equine breeding system in this countryand how people breed for all the wrong reasons. I am sure the same is true in the canine world, gosh I can just feel my blood boiling. 

[robert waddell]

the same in the pig breeding world   no thought to what they are producing they think that what they pay for weaners is to much so try and breed there own cant even give them away and wonder why   no wonder chicken is dearer than pork