[robert waddell]

OK here goes rosemary and Dan will be running for cover with this one  with Dans finger hovering over the cancel button
the question about CKC  i went on the site mentioned  all very informative until i came to the endorsement bit
is there actually people that will pay hundreds of pounds for pedigree dogs and commite themselves to not breeding from that dog   cattle that is the whole point of buying pedigree is to breed that particular line same as pigs sheep goats and horses    cats work the same way as pigs you can get them birth notified but it is the breeder that must register them  you can still breed them but they will never be classed as pedigree without parting with more money over the original selling price
but dogs are different here is your pedigree dog sign here you cant breed ever from it nice doing business  the seller of down the road singing and dancing  like morrcume and wise   just what is the point of having that pedigree dog then      or am i missing something    or should this be enacted in parliament and wheeled out across Britain         this would get rid of all the cats dogs pigs and horses that are abandoned or no longer wanted      or aw that looks cute and we could do this and get thousands from sgum

[Old Shep]

The first Gordon Setter that we bought was pedigree and had a breeding endorsement.  I know it seems strange especially to "stock people"  but I am quite happy with that.  I wanted that breed and there aren't non-pedigree breeders of Gordon setters, and had no intention of breeding myself then.   The breeders had put this on so that their puppies weren't bought by "puppy farmers".  They wanted their pups to go to proper family homes    They did say though that as we were "nice sensible people" they might lift the endorsement if we asked.   We haven't bred from her and she's now 8, and have bought another 2 Gordons after her.  I never think of making money from my dogs because I go to work to earn money, dogs are just my guilty pleasure :-) (because I keep wanting more).  Hope this goes some way to explaining why I did it Robert?  Can't speak for anyone else though 

[robate55]

I have bred 3 litters in the last 12 years. These have been to give me a dog to work/ sport train. I have endorsed the registrations. This because I have been careful with the necessary health checks & I do not want unhealthy pups produced from my puppies. If the relevant tests are done & the dog is healthy I will remove the endorsement at no cost. So my reasoning is to stop uneducated people producing unhealthy dogs.
Rose

[doganjo]

OK here goes rosemary and Dan will be running for cover with this one  with Dans finger hovering over the cancel button
the question about CKC  i went on the site mentioned  all very informative until i came to the endorsement bit
is there actually people that will pay hundreds of pounds for pedigree dogs and commite themselves to not breeding from that dog   cattle that is the whole point of buying pedigree is to breed that particular line same as pigs sheep goats and horses    cats work the same way as pigs you can get them birth notified but it is the breeder that must register them  you can still breed them but they will never be classed as pedigree without parting with more money over the original selling price
but dogs are different here is your pedigree dog sign here you cant breed ever from it nice doing business  the seller of down the road singing and dancing  like morrcume and wise   just what is the point of having that pedigree dog then      or am i missing something    or should this be enacted in parliament and wheeled out across Britain         this would get rid of all the cats dogs pigs and horses that are abandoned or no longer wanted      or aw that looks cute and we could do this and get thousands from sgum

Yes, I ALWAYS endorse my pups!  I ALWAYS have a waiting list and I ALWAYS get full price for them.  Endorsing means that owners will hesitate before breeding a pup too young, or indiscriminately, or to an inappropriate stud or bitch.  It's not infallible but it works most of the time - if a dog is endorsed it's progeny can't be registered with the Kennel Club, nor future generations, but some people don't care about that and go ahead anyway, but at least it keeps it in check.  And I have the same health ideals as Rose

[Sylvia]

Any reputable breeder will put an endorsement on their pupppies papers. This does not mean that people cannot breed from their dogs, only that the pups will not be recognised by the Kennel Club. This would, in theory, discourage people breeding for the wrong reasons,i.e. for pure profit, but in fact a non-registered pup will sell for the same price as a registered one
If the breeder is certain that the dog will be bred for the right reasons, i.e. to enhance or improve that breed or because the person wants a pup to show then the breeder will, no doubt, lift the endorsement.

[Moleskins]

IMHO the kennel club and breeders have done more harm to dogs than enough.
Short nosed dogs that can't breath because they've been bred with such short noses, and hip problems seem to be bred into all sorts of breeds now. Think German Shepherd, bred for a particular stance that caused problems. The Golden Cocker Spaniel has problems with schizophrenia  which have ruined what was a lovely family pet popular with many. 
Chocolate Labradors were very popular at one time and have a reputation for being thick as two short planks, I'm told this is due to breeders producing Chocolate colour rather than breeding for intelligence to do the job they were made for, purely because they could make money out of a dog of a particular colour.
Breeders are also keen to offload bitches that have had their quota of pups and are no good for making further money.
Breeders are known for breeding my type of dog, shooting dogs for the fact that they have FTC champions in them, this doesn't always signify that they are a good working dog. Just that they can perform a particular task in quick time.

[doganjo]

A lot of these points are being  or have been remedied thank goodness.  The KC now have a list of recommended health tests for most breeds, and most responsible breeders will do these tests on their breeding stock.  The breeds with exaggerations have been caused by the breeders themselves trying to outdo each other, not by the Kennel Club -  all the KC does is print a breed standard which doesn't change much over the years.  The breeders do the damage and the KC gets the blame.  But it is trying to redress the balance. All best of breed winners at shows in these breeds are having to undergo an independent vet health test.

Cocker Rage Syndrome is now also under control, I was unfortunate enough to have one which was destroyed at 18 months after attacking me, but that was in 1984 and it is very rare now, it was also seen in solid blacks as well as reds and goldens.  As for Chocolate labs I think they are common as muck these days.  Whether they are actually less intelligent or just perceived so by reputation, I don't know.

in fact a non-registered pup will sell for the same price as a registered one .  Not in my breed - they are being sold down South for half the price of a registered well bred Brittany.  But then they cannot be shown or trialled and are unsuitable as pets unless they get a lot of exercise. Those are usually the ones coming on rescue.

[robert waddell]

Shep  if demand for a specific breed  is high and breeding low the price goes up and naturally you will get speculators  (puppy farmers) but breeders could be regarded as puppy farmers as well even if they do all the checks before breeding   and you the new owner has to Carry out more tests then the pup you are sold is not fit for purpose if it fails these tests    i still think these breeders are ring fencing there investment or stopping others getting on the gravy train
the same argument can apply to robate 55 reply  what is the difference betwean you and the uneducated people producing unhealthy pups
doganjo is there not another group of people that are dishing out pedigrees as well as the KC
Sylvia i am with moleskins  on breeders interference with bringing out particular traits to the detriment of the breed this also applies to other animal breeds the interference list is endless
now CKC from the website that doganjo highlighted on there faults  is in 95% of CKC brain to big for there skull
i will bet that remaining 5% are not the breeding nucleus that these ring fenced breeders are breeding from

[in the hills]

I bought my pedigree dog knowing that I wouldnt breed from him but chose that breed because I knew from breed characteristics that I would probably end up with a lively, friendly dog that would be playful with my children. I did consider a rescue dog but felt it to be more risky in the sense that I have young children and the temperament would be less certain. Surely it is only the same buying a pedigree dog as a pedigree rabbit, cat or most other creatures. You look at the breed and choose a breed that fits in with your cicumstances. A dog doesnt have to be bred from to be worth the money you pay for it. Same with any other animal.

As regards to breeding, you can only do so much to ensure any animal goes to a good home. That is the same regardless of species. A neighbour will not part with/sell any poultry for that very reason (only to me  ).

My father did breed a few litters when he worked, trained, field trialled and exhibited gundogs. I remember eye and hip testing but not up to date with new tests. He bred in order to keep pups to train and show and together with the sires owners had a list of people ready to take pups.

There are people that breed for the wrong reasons and that is obviously wrong but occurs with all breeds of animals not just dogs. Someone asked to use my dog recently to produce some cross bred puppies. The answer was a definite no, for lots of reasons which I did explain to the person.

Dont quite understand why everyone gets so heated in this section  Dont come here often .... perhaps Ive missed something  Please be gentle with me     

[robate55]

Hi the difference is that I will health test & try not to produce unhealthy pups whereas I can't be sure new owner will health test unless I endorse the registration. I would not breed from a dog which failed any health checks, or health problems like my Andra (now neutered) despite her clear tests. I might add I have no unneutered females now as there is too much nastiness about what you breed.
Rose

[in the hills]

I dont remember any real nastiness when we worked/showed dogs but it was some years ago now.

Is it just within one breed?

Went to Crufts and all that and remember it all being quite fun!!! Did think about showing my lad at one point ..... maybe its a good job I didnt.

[robate55]

Nastiness just local running down of  my dogs & putting people off them. Then advising buying off local non testing 'breeder' who is dodgy - both with what he does to his dogs & stalking people!  My old bitch blamed nastily for stud dog not mating her. Not sure how anybody believed she threw a stud dog twice her weight on the floor!
Rose

[doganjo]

doganjo is there not another group of people that are dishing out pedigrees as well as the KC

Well there are the bloodhound groups and the collie ones I guess.  Don't know of any others.

[robate55]

Down here there is something called the Dog Lovers Club who issue pedigrees. Pups advertised as DLC registered. They will 'produce' pedigrees for you I think, some with different breeds on it!! They are useful to puppy farmers as it looks as if the puppies are registered somewhere.
Rose

[Moleskins]

Is this endorsing just a way of operating a 'closed shop' ?
Unless you're in the 'club' you find it hard to breed and sell a pup.
Does this help to give a person a healthy dog from good stock ?
I doubt it on my experience.