[robert waddell]

several thing wrong with the information that has been sent to the English and welsh
first it clearly states that the electronic forms are for FARM TO SLAUGHTER
not all slaughter houses have internet access
also the four easy steps also lists farm to farm and farm to market   EHH are they forking stupid or have they let the cat out the bag
the only good thing is the slaughter house are going to send you carcase feedback that is if they are on the net

[skidley]

the bumfp I got in the post says

'You can set up your farm to Abattoir movement now with electronic Farm to Farm/Market/Show/Collection Centre/Import/ Export movements coming soon'

I had a guy pick up two weaners on sunday and told him to send the paperwork to Stoneleigh.

Well done Tam/saddle did you get the littermate to your Melody Gilt, I'm sure they will settle better as a pair. good luck with them.

[tizaala]

The whole thing is a total mess and a waste of taxpayers money, what happens if we all totaly ignore the new setup and keep posting movement sheets to the defra offices we have always used, and sod e'm ....let them sort it out. It's probably only a ploy to cut back on staff anyway so by flooding them with unwanted paper we are creating jobs! ......civil dissobediance is called for...squirrels of the world unite you've nothing to loose but your nuts.

[waterhouse]

Theyre obviously adapting the failed NHS patient record system to track pigs instead.

[Berkshire Boy]

Well they've got to do something with that £12 billion computer system, good smallholding practices waste not want not.

[Fowgill Farm]

, you must legally wait for paperwork to be sent to you, and only then can move.  As BPEX neatly and in civil service language explained it "it allows producers to set up movements days/weeks in advance but it is also appreciated that it may mean an adjustment to current working practices." ie no selling at weekends unless they booked before Thursday.

Last winter we had 3 attempts to get to the butchers which were aborted due to snow how do we come on then?? same as people collecting my hire boar or bringing him back, put off due to unforeseen cuircumstances or bad weather? Don't think they've thought this thro too well. So wghat happens when you predict a move and its doesn't happen, can you cancel it?
Mandy 

[oaklandspigs]

Or find your land flooded on a Saturaday and need to move the pigs pronto !

Answer is that you need a working PC for the new system to work !

Anything else, and you better have planned ahead.

Still waiting for the AML projcet manager to come back to me on the many os q's i have (and I'm lining up more)

PS - have you Scots been told that you are now the same as England and Wales on ID (PRIMO Scotland 2011 came onto force 1st October), so no more move to Abattoir on paint mark 9must be tatoo or slapmark), and no more live to live move over 1 yr old on paintmark, although still paper movement forms.

[robert waddell]

no    diddly squat    so far

[oaklandspigs]

no    diddly squat    so far

Interesting...

You may want to read the whole thing :

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2011/327/pdfs/ssi_20110327_en.pdf

Article 12 is interesting (scottish equiv of e-aml but without the e!):

"when moving pigs, the keeper must notify information [listed later]  to the Scottish Ministers, either prior to the movement or on the day of the movement,"

Doesn't say how you are going to do this !

and then
"The keeper at the holding of destination must notify the information specified in paragraph (1) to the Scottish Ministers, within a period of 3 days commencing on the day of the arrival of the pigs."

so both sides have to tell them!

Maybe something for the SPKA to take up and understand? or maybe just keep heads down and hope that yet miore red tape doesn't actually get into effect

[robert waddell]

oaklands why has it to be up to the spka to solve/inform on new legislation
NOW IF THE SPKA WERE TO BE FUNDED BY THE SCOTTISH GOVERMENT THEN THAT WOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM
UNFORTUNATLY WE DO NOT GET ANY FUNDING OTHER THAN SMALL DONATIONS AND ANY RESULTS OF LILLIANS BEGGING

[robert waddell]

OK just a quick glance through the amended legislation
NOW I MAY BE WRONG BUT
paint marks are still legal
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers of this change the spka will finally find out how many pig holdings are in Scotland   NOBODY CAN GIVE A DEFFINATE NUMBER JUST NOW
interesting part on pigs imported or exported  live i would assume

[oaklandspigs]

paint marks are still legal
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers of this change the spka will finally find out how many pig holdings are in Scotland   NOBODY CAN GIVE A DEFFINATE NUMBER JUST NOW
interesting part on pigs imported or exported  live i would assume

paint marks are still legal
 - only live to live under 1 yr, not to abattoir or for pigs over 1 yr
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs - not sure where you get that from - the regulations defines a pig as any pig except wild, and indeed the legislation includes walking pet pigs.
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers  - agree with you, and would sincerely hope that AH Scotland or Scottish gov would not prosecute anyone for not complying, but the legal maxim "ignorant juris non excused" applies, so claiming you didn't know or were not told in no defence in law.

I was not suggesting any duty of the SPKA to act as an agent for the Scottish Government, merely that the SKPA might want to help it's members stay within the law as a service to it's members.  It was just a suggestion, and even then I tempered it with a "or maybe..."

[robert waddell]

bottom of page 3
oaklands if we have not been officialy informed how can we inform others
you are getting it wrong already (with no paint marks)

[oaklandspigs]

bottom of page 3 -simply allows the option of a producer group using their mark as an alternate to the herdmark, does not exempt others from needing to use a herdmark.

Anyway, my spies tell me that new guidance will be issues in late October or November (probably civil servoce speak for December!), so no need to worry until then, and no  doubt all will become clear then.

[HappyHippy]

I was speaking to my AHO this afternoon (trading standards at the local council) she was telling me that they haven't even been given full guidance on it 
Her/mine/our understanding is that it applies to ALL pigs (whether commercial or not) and that the Scottish Government are the ones responsible for sending out the info.........if anyone wants to chase them up 
It was due to be out by now, but obviously isn't so for the meantime we have to continue as normal.
The paint mark issue as far as I can see has changed slightly. Pigs under a year can still move holding to holding on a temporary paint mark but if they are going to slaughter or market they must be marked with your herd number (either ear tag, tattoo or slapmark)

Robin, I think, once the animal health officers know what they're doing and the government finally gets round to sending out the info, that the Scottish Pig Keepers Association will either hold a 'workshop' with an AHO with a Q&A session at the end or write up an easy to understand version and circulate it to our members. Unfortunately we've not got every pig keeper in Scotland on our membership list, far from it  But for those that are, we'll certainly be getting something out and hopefully we can spread the word amongst the non-members too 

It all feels a bit ar** for t*t at the minute though 
Karen