The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: tizaala on September 22, 2011, 12:28:19 pm
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The postman just brought me an information pack about eAML2 ELECTRONIC MOVEMENT LICENCING..
It is supposed to make form filling a thing of the past if you are sending pigs to slaughter.
1/ go to www.eaml2.org.uk (http://www.eaml2.org.uk) to set up your movement including FCI information.
2/ load pigs.
3/ Confirm the movement online or by text from your mobile
this is just farm to abattoir at the moment
coming soon - farm to farm/ market/ show/ collection centre/ import/ export
FSA carcase reports automatically e-mailed to you.
this is to replace the paper forms by 2012
apparently.
ps . just read that you still have to fill in a hauliers sheet.!!! so what exactly are we going to save ???
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Our abattoir isn't electronic yet, so still filling in the old forms.
Great idea though......If they can get the hauliers part organised too!!
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Is there a way of checking which abattoirs are registered yet?? ??? Can't see anything on the website ::)
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Our abattoir isn't electronic yet, so still filling in the old forms.
Great idea though......If they can get the hauliers part organised too!!
I don't know about the abattoir, I'm not electronic yet :o :o
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:) :) :) :)
I'm registered with BPEX and input my FCI online. When you get to the question about which abattoir you are using there is a list of all the abattoirs and it says whether they are on the electronic system....or not.
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we do e-aml for our abatoir, but the lairage man insists we take 2 paper copies of the form for him, so in effcet we do an electronioc, and then print three copies anyway, one for us as transporter.
Farm to farm is going to be interesting for those who don't live on site. Customer phones and says might want two weaners - can they come over and look.
Do you
a) fill in an aml2 on spec that they will buy two before you go to site? what happens if they don't buy? what happens if they then buy 3?
b) see if they buy, and then come back, if so what paperwork do they carry?
Seems to be a recipe for making the system worse not better, but will wait until someone produces the rules
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Is this just in England and Wales or does it apply to Scotland too?
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it is being rolled out across the country all entrants to newbery show tried it to locate the flaws :farmer:
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Got mine too yesterday and while i understand about doing the one going to slaughter, i rang to have clarified the bit about that between Oct 11 & April 12 all AML's should be sent to the MB place, did this mean we don't send any movements at all to trading satndards? they didn't know answer still waiting for them to ring back ::)
I have weaners to go off on 1st october so do i send the paperwork or do the people buying them and if so where do we send them. i then have my boar due to come back in, does the breeder who borrowed him notify or me when i get him back. Think they've opened up a right can of worms. I for one will continue to run a paper version alongside any electronic i do and any transactions other than slaughter will be sending copies to both TS & this MB place until someone tells me otherwise.
Help................ aghhhh..... redtape >:( ??? ::)
Totally confused Mandy :pig:
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Mandy,
Do let us know what they come back with !
Robert - were there any flaws that you know of?
Whilst we have PC on site, for many I can see this leading to confusion, delay and non-conformance.
And of course PC's are ALWAYS working, IE never crashes, emails NEVER get lost, everyone knows EXACTLY what to do, NO-ONE is PC illiterate - and don't mention that we can phone them in - imagine dictating the stuff needed on an AML2 over the phone, that'll mean that mistakes are never made, oh and of course everyone has a landline at their site, and mobiles are always charged, never left at home by mistake, signals in countryside are always strong......
What happens if i am going to a show and my PC won't start at 6am - will the ever friendly TS staff at teh show accept my livestock, or will it be my fault.
Robert - who did the return AMLs at newbury - do people holding shows need to have PC's on site?
Am by no means a ludite - but the benefits are TS staff not needing to type this stuff into there system, none for us as users.
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The average age of a Welsh hill farmer is now somewhere in the mid 60's , have a look round at the market and you will see for yourselves , how many of these are not computer litterate or even own one, or have ever used one. How the hell do they get up to speed by next year?. answers on a postcard to..................
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Maybe that's why they're starting with pigs, tizaala. Not so many pigs on the Welsh hill farms...
The average age of hill farmers across England and Wales is about 59 now, I think, and goes up by one each year. Which suggests to most of us that not many are coming into the profession...
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oaklands it was when we were at hatfield all competitors were asked if they were going to newbury
as this was going to be the tester don't know what happened if there were flaws hickups or arguments
it may surprise you how many pigs farms are in the welsh hills :farmer:
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Robert - thanks
Anyone who gets a handle on how this all works - please let us know !!
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I got an email from the BPA before the Hatfield House Country Show, asking me to take part in a trial, because they wanted to carry out an experiment with exhibitors attending both Hatfield and the Royal County of Berkshire Show (held at Newbury). I said I'd be happy to take part, but no-one bothered to tell me there was a meeting at Hatfield about it, so I'm still as much in the dark as everyone else. If the BPA wants cooperation, it needs to be a bit more proactive and inclusive.
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that will be two of us getting the mushroom treatment :o :farmer: :o
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Still not heard anything back on my query, methinks i may have thrown a spanner in ye olde works, cart & horse comes to mind as ever anything connected to govt dpts & IT ::)
Mandy :pig:
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Still not heard anything back on my query, methinks i may have thrown a spanner in ye olde works, cart & horse comes to mind as ever anything connected to govt dpts & IT ::)
Mandy :pig:
The August leaflet said
October 2011 – Expected date for implementation of new legislation. Existing AML2 forms
may still be used to report movements, for a transitional period, but instead, must be sent to
MLCSL AND NOT your Local Authority. See address overleaf.
address being :
MLCSL, Stoneleigh Park, Kenilworth, Warwickshire CV8 2TL
But not sure if we should be legally complying with an "expected date" - would have thought that a mailing saying now live would be sent.
Who knows - usual gov expect us to find out rather than tell us, 'cos of course we have lots of time to do nothing but look up things as we sit in offices all day !
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I went to Newbury show they had trouble with the sheep licences so God knows what they did with the pig licences! i know they were so behind in the office there were big problems livestock wise, and they charged every single car parking in the carpark £5.00 to park. What a swiz
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"October 2011 – Expected date for implementation of new legislation. Existing AML2 forms
may still be used to report movements, for a transitional period, but instead, must be sent to
MLCSL AND NOT your Local Authority. See address overleaf.
address being :
MLCSL, Stoneleigh Park, Kenilworth, Warwickshire CV8 2TL"
The transition dates are Oct 11 - April 12.
I suspect this is because in April they will (hope to) go live and make all pig movements electronic. What confuses me is that it reads as if the 'sending party' is now responsible for sending off the AML whereas it has always been the 'receiving party' that has sent of the AML to TS.
Going to ring my friendly TS lady this afty and see if she can spread any light on this.
Will let you all know later.
Mandy :pig:
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Spoke to my nice lady at TS this afternoon, as of tomorrow 1st October No AML's for pigs are to be sent to your local TS they must be sent to MLCSL at Stoneleigh.
Don't hold much hope on things going well, imagine how many movements a day they are going to be inundated with thro the post (does anyone know if you can fax as with TS?) and the people in putting them will like as not be agency data inputters who could as well be tying in tins of beans as pigs ::) At least when i ring TS at Northallerton, they know who iam, where i live and my pigs, things can only get worser...................
We shall see.
Mandy :pig:
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Am still awaiting responses to my questions from BPEX - they are aparently still trying to find out the answers.
What I queried was :
"A number of queries occur, which hopefully you can answer. Many small producers sell live weaners from properties that are remote from their homes (so no on-site PCs) , and some producers do not have internet.
1. If my PC crashes, or internet is down (happens in rural areas, and small producers may only have one PC) can I use the telephone service? Or am i banned from moving because of equipment failure?.
2. If this happens at 8pm is the telephone service available then, and at weekends when many live to live transfers happen?
3. If telephone service is not available at weekends, then how do those without computers move livestock (and no they may not know before the weekend that they are moving), or how do those with computers that are not working. Are they banned from moving, or can they do the paperwork retrospectively.
4. The paperwork states “Q: What if I get an inspection from Trading Standards or the RPA? : All inspection bodies are being briefed on the new system. As with your existing paper records you should give them access to your electronic eAML2 records if you are inspected.” Are you telling me that I must let an inspector have access to my computer (I hope not!) or how do I give them access – surely they already have this centrally. Is this just a badly phrased Q&A ?
5. Given this is due to come into effect in less than a week, what are the telephone numbers and hours of service for the BPA, BPEX, and MLCSL telephone lines
Thanks in advance for your help and answers
I think I know the legal answers to some of these, as following no response from them went to the legislation, as PRIMO 2011 says :
"12.—(1) Subject to articles 13, 14, 15 and 16(2) keepers, other than markets, must notify BPEX of all movements of pigs from their holdings before those movements take place.
(2) Keepers may notify BPEX electronically by entering the following information onto the BPEX movement recording system—
(a)the address, including the postcode, and CPH number of the holdings from and to which the pigs are being moved;.
(b)the date of the movement;.
(c)the number of pigs being moved;.
(d)the identification mark of each pig moved, and in the case of a movement specified in article 9 or 10 [shows or export] that must include the unique individual identification number required by those articles..
(3) If a keeper does not notify BPEX electronically they must provide the information listed in paragraph (2) by telephone or in writing to MLCSL and may not move those pigs until they have received a document from MLCSL recording that information.
(4) When MLCSL receives notification of movement information under paragraph (3) it must, within one working day of receipt excluding weekends, send the keeper sufficient copies of a document recording that information to enable the keeper, and any transporter and the keeper at the holding of destination to meet their recording obligations.
(5) When pigs are moved from a market the market must notify BPEX of the information at paragraph (2) in relation to those pigs electronically on the day of the movement.
(6) In this article “BPEX movement recording system” means the electronic movement recording system maintained for the purpose of notifications under this Order by BPEX and “working day” means a day which is not a Saturday or a Sunday, Christmas Day, Good Friday or a bank holiday in England and Wales under the Banking and Financial Dealings Act 1971(1)."
So basically after 31st March, no working PC, or no internet, then you need to allow two working days (providing they are sending first class) to get a form. Ok so you can book ahead, so if you know on monday that you are moving at the weekend and to whom, you can enter it on your pc on monday, in case your pc breaks down.
As for hours of telephone service - is Monday to Friday 9-5 for BPEX!
For those with no PC, all moves neeed to be booked two days ahead (at least!)
And if you have no pc on your pigsite then you are going to need more forward planning if you sell live.
And if you have PC, and someone phones Staurday to buy for Sunday, better be happy that the PC is working, as if it then goes down, you can't move at the weekend when they call, and if PC not fixed monday, then you will wait until wednesday for the telephone form. Buyer may go elsewhere.
Not so much worried for us, we have two PC's on site, and can always pop to neighbours to enter at worst.
The big pig guys are already paranoid about disease spread and have closed or very tightly controlled moves within pyramiods, and really are no disease risk at all
But the old boys and girls who are not PC literate are going to be affected, and will now fall under the need to serve two days notice.
It is the small guys/gals who are the disease risk, and suspect that it will lead to more unregistered moves if they have to plan two days ahead, so the law of unintended consequences may well apply, and a system designed to improve data capture may well lead to the opposite. I hope I am wrong!
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Well I filled in the stuff on line and all seemed fine...then I got a letter today saying they'd never heard of me and did I realise it was illigal to rear pigs and not be registered ?!?!?!? ??? ??? ???......and could I ring them on their Helpline!!!! GIVE ME STRENGTH. They recognised the Herd Number.........so what the **** are they on about. :P :P :P Sorry, another busy day and that just about crowned it. Thank goodness for a glass of white wine....hic....hic....
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Blinkers,
oh dear, hopefully not the way of things to come !
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I'm so glad that I opened this can of worms. But worry not folks, the good folk at DEFRA have a contingency plan. before any of this can be put into place they will release foot and mouth again to buy themselves time to get it sorted...........
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Don't even joke about it tizaala. Really.
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Quite
The NSA announced last week it was working with DEFRA on a sheep version. It does make sense, but I'm happy to see all the cock-ups worked through on the pig scheme first.
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The NSA announced last week it was working with DEFRA on a sheep version. It does make sense
Nonono nonoNONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
It makes no sense at all. None. Not any.
Maybe not a problem for smallholders with small numbers of sheep and few movements. But insane and unworkable for farmers with any number of sheep.
At the moment I am incoherent with rage at the very idea. I maybe will try to express why it's unworkable and insane later if I calm down.
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The NSA announced last week it was working with DEFRA on a sheep version. It does make sense
Nonono nonoNONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
It makes no sense at all. None. Not any.
Maybe not a problem for smallholders with small numbers of sheep and few movements. But insane and unworkable for farmers with any number of sheep.
At the moment I am incoherent with rage at the very idea. I maybe will try to express why it's unworkable and insane later if I calm down.
It couldn't be that bad surely, we area electronic here in Oz...we can , down load the weigh bill ( movement sheet), fill it online, press print. The program sends a copy to APL..... and allows us to print one for ourselves. We have 3 copies.......white, pink and green. We take all three if delivering ourselves, if the truck comes by we keep the green one and give the pink and white one to the truckie. He signs the sheet and puts his truck details on it as well, If the stock inspector pulls him up he loses the pink one ( I think) and keeps the white one... He gets to the abattoir and delivers the pigs to which the white one is stapled to the paperwork and goes through the abattoir.. Your kill sheets are emailed through to me via my email address. The details of all pigs, and the levies are listed on here. the money owed to you plus GST paid on your pigs. APL have a register of what was sent and this builds up, they collect the levies and get a gov. grant to match it for research ...is thathow it works in the UK?
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Sally, I detect a degree of resistance to the idea. You'll have to help me out because if one accepts that tagging is going to exist for traceability purposes because of the disease that shall not be joked about, then it needs to be easy to operate and generate reliable data - the second following from the first. Which I can't see from the present paper based system, particularly when every individual has to be uniquely identified on the AML1
Today I sent in the AML1 for the ram I've borrowed from a lady in Bedfordshire to trading standards in Hertfordshire. In a months time I'll send another one which may reverse the first, but since I can't read the numbers who knows what will be recorded.
I would have thought that the remote tag ID readers would make things really easy for the commercial farmer. The NSA trials have shown them to be highly reliable so whats the problem in downloading from the reader to a PC and transmitting bulk entries through software?
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Waterhouse, I would need to be up all night telling you what is wrong with the existing implementation of EID for sheep, but I will tell you some of it.
Before I get onto that however, the thing which has riled me about the idea of implementing this pre-movement notification for sheep is that when sheep EID was introduced, one of the things we as farmers were promised was that there would be no need for us to buy readers or software as all marts and abattoirs would be recording centres, and we would not need to list individual ids if we were en route to a recording centre. Clearly, if pre-movement notification is introduced then we will need to have readers and software on farm - yet another pointless expense.
In my previous life I was a project manager. One of my key skills was making sure that whatever got implemented was what was needed, that everyone involved in the project or affected by it got what they needed and that if they had to accept disruption or costs as a result of it, they got something positive from it too to compensate them for that. It incenses me that Defra continually implement schemes with badly-defined requirements, which are not met, which cause unnecessary disruption and cost and deliver no benefit to anyone, including not delivering the original project goals.
So you see I can't start from the premise "tagging is going to exist for traceability purposes because of the disease that shall not be joked about" because EID as implemented in sheep provides very little improvement in traceability over the previous non-EID method.
It was blindingly obvious to many farmers, myself included, that this would be the case, before the scheme became law. I attended several meetings with Defra and each time they were told what the problems would be, and each time they were dismissive at best, rude and patronising at worst.
What it would seem is happening now is that Defra has now realised that the whole sheep EID scheme has failed to meet its single original requirement, despite having cost the industry millions and delivered no benefit whatsoever except perhaps to the companies who manufacture and/or sell the tags, taggers, readers and software. To paper over this, it looks as though they are now going to break yet another of their commitments to farmers, and force us to spend more money implementing readers and software systems on the farm.
Having watched disbelievingly my local marts spend between them hundreds of thousands of pounds on EID readers (money which they can ill afford and in one case at least has resulted in planned improvements which would have delivered significant animal welfare benefits having to be shelved) which still break down at least once a week and which still fail to correctly list more than 97% of the tags running through them, I surely do feel and express a great deal of resistance to being forced into having on-farm readers and software, yes.
What will happen is farmers who currently buy and sell sheep will have to decide if they can afford the equipment and extra work entailed.
Picture the scene. It's 4am and you are collecting your lambs to go to the mart today. You rear your own and bought-in store lambs, so it does require you to read and list all the eartags of all the sheep. (If it was just your own homebred lambs you could get around the problem by tagging at the point of loading and using the - more expensive - numbered tags so that you know what numbers are in the lambs' ears without having to read anything.) It will have to be electronically because (a) there are so many sheep it would be infeasible to do this manually and (b) many of the sheep have slaughter tags, on which only an electronic device can read the individual id. Defra will insist on 100% accuracy - so you tell me what you will do when, having collected the 100 lambs and driven them past the reader, you find only 98 numbers read. And remember that if they are slaughter tags, you cannot read them by eye.
The farmer in this picture will have had to spend money on equipment and handling facilities (the reader will need to be kept dry, so there'll have to be an undercover race for the lambs to be driven through and past the reader), quite likely will have to move the lambs from where they have been kept to this facility for tag reading before loading, will certainly have to start the whole operation quite a bit earlier to allow for the time it takes to get the readings and deal with any errors.
What will happen is quite a few farmers who currently buy in store lambs to fatten on their spare winter grass, who buy in ewe lambs to grow on and sell as gimmers, will decide it's not worth the hassle and will stop buying and selling sheep. Most hill farmers rely on the store market for a significant portion of their income, as they do not have the type of ground on which all their lambs can be fattened. So this will be another nail in the coffin of hill farming sheep.
Which makes it all the more surprising that you say that NSA are behind this. So before spending any more time writing up what is wrong with the proposals which I haven't seen, I think I had better go and read up what the NSA and others are actually saying and Defra is actually proposing.
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ok, this is a pig topic, and thank god we don't have pig individual ID at the moment, but I'm with Sally.
It needs to be remembererd that it was just over 10 years ago that we had NO id required for sheep. This previous ID sytem had been in place for around 40,000 years, and apart from the odd person hung by mistake or transported to Oz, it seemed to work very well.
You then follow a process post 2000 F&M that says we need to know who is moving animals where - perfectly reasonable, and if you intrduced a scheme where people had to notify when sheep had moved from one holding to another, 98% of the UK (which is very law conpliant couintry) would follow this. This is as much as you need to know - one or more animals have moved from Fred's farm to Jo's farm 3 days ago. In the case of an outbreak of F&M, this would catch most of the movements, we already have standstills to slow the disease, with these two measures you would pretty well stop it in it's tracks.
But says civil service mentality 98% is not good enough, we need to be 100% sure. So we want to know how many sheep have moved. But those pesky farmers will lie, so we need to have flock numbers on tags so we can count sheep and check that which farm they are from. Damn those pesky farmers take tags out and replace them, we need individual ID to identify every sheep. Damm there are so many of these sheep that the inspectors can't read numbers, we need electronic numbers so they can have readers. Damn tags get lost, we need reams of records to tell us which have been replaced. Of course the present system has no more benefits than the one introduced in 2000, as 98% of the population comply with the moves and standstills, and the 2% that don't can still easily chnage tags, change birth records etc. So 98% of us have time and expense that creates no benefit.
Hey ho, rant over.
And no, Defra has not changed any policy, "slash and burn" of any imfected farm and contiguous ones still is the policy, so knowing which sheep have moved gets you nowhere, they still come any kill all of them.
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I quote Oaklands.........."And no, Defra has not changed any policy, "slash and burn" of any imfected farm and contiguous ones still is the policy, so knowing which sheep have moved gets you nowhere, they still come any kill all of them."
Wrong............the policy is ' slash and transport infected bodies along the motorways and trunk roads to spread the disease more efficiently '. Like they did so brilliently well last time.
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tizaala you are wrong with the transport of infected animals along motorways and trunk routes
yes the dead ones were transported from the farms to a central disposal point BUT DID IT SPREAD THE FOOT ANY FURTHER there was a part herd of heifers outwintered next the m74 the rest of the herd was culled these heifers were outwith the area that was infected and never contracted f/m even with the lorries going past them
at the last outbreak it was the speed or lack of speed of tracing all people and animals that had come in contact or perceived contact
the old system of keel marks worked at local level transport these sheep from Scotland to wales and you are buggered
sheep are transshipped all over the UK and that is the big problem for traceability
oaklands we do have individual id of pigs NOT ELECTRONIC as yet
Britain is now gripped with this culture of blame it has to start somewhere or someone hendon on the wall was a suitable nail to hang the jacket for obvious reasons with the effect it has had on the farming industry :farmer:
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Sally, I think we're just at different ends of the same page. I completely agree with you that DEFRA has made a pigs ear :) of sheep tagging just as was done with the horse passport scheme - expensive and ineffective. You'd have thought they'd just occasionally learn from their mistakes.
In summary DEFRA has taken a non-negotiable and inflexible EU requirement and bolluxed it up at the farmers' expense. As you correctly point out the scheme as it stands doesn't achieve traceability: since 39% of tags ordered in 2011 are slaughter tags it ain't going to either.
The NSA did a field test earlier this year of EID tags on sheep from all over the UK in a store finishing unit and got 99% success from race fitted readers, 98.5% from hand helds so the system can work. My point is that the UK's record of getting u-turns out of Brussels has been poor of late and I can't see traceability going away as an issue now that the local abattoir has gone.
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Just a thought but the govt knows where every cow, sheep, pig & goat is but they don't know where every immigrant, paedophile & sex offenders is located???? ::) ::) Maybe they should all be EID'd!! ;D
Thought the govt was trying to get rid of red tape. I for one am totally confused i sold some weaners on Saturday, gave the new ownere the copy of the AML and told them to post the top copy to Stoneleigh, i will probably get bollocked for not letting them know prior but think its just salughter thet are elecetronic now and the rest will folow on in April as ever it has not been explained properley as ever the majority of our type of pig keeeprs barely know of the existence of BPEX and look to the BPA (God help us ::)) to communciate the ins and outs of this complete b*****ks up of animal movements. Nobody seems to know whether its now the selling/sending party who informs about movement or it continues to be the receiving party.!!!
The next six months are going to be hell!!
Mandy ??? :pig:
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the government does not know where every animal is only if the paperwork is there for them and it has been sent away the immigrants paedophiles and sex offenders do not send in there paperwork or inform them of there movements
just the same as we could if we wanted to blend in as they do
what the stuff has the bpa to do with ensuring that pig movements comply with the latest idea on traceability why should your money and mine be spent from the bpa to channel every pig keeper on the correct method of administering a new system
you might as well say the nsa are responsible for ensuring every sheep farmer applies for single farm payment correctly
have you had information from defra on this we have not
how did you find out about the new system as us from word of mouth and this forum
>:( :pig: :farmer:
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Robert on the blurb from BPEX it says that the BPA will be one of the 'organs' that will facilitate and 'help' pig keepers understand and use the working of the new system, thats why the BPA are involved and as i read in yackers weekly it is the NSA who are pushing for sheep movements to go electronic too. Theres no hope for us luddites!!
Mandy :pig:
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What a muddle. I bought two pigs at Stoneleigh at the BPA sale on Saturday 1 October and was given a paper AML, and now have no idea who I should send the top copy to. I think I will photocopy it and send one to TS and the other back straight back to Stoneleigh. I can't possibly imagine how they could work an electronic AML system at a pig market as it is utterly chaotic paying at all - queued for 2 hours, mountains of forms and paper and lists piling up everywhere in their tiny office and 5 frazzled girls seemingly unable to process any transaction without endless conversations with the other 4, even though everyone in the queue had already filled in a paper AML with all the purchaser, transporter and pig ID details by the time they finally got to the window. If it was electronic all that info for each and every buyer would have to be typed into the computer on the spot which would take even more hours to do. Oh well hope they sort it out eventually. Piggies are now back here and seem very contented. Tamsaddle
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tamsaddle that was 5 girls sorting out a handful of pigs
the bpa has ONE lady (Dianne) and a temp who has no idea what chance does the bpa have
what like was prices and what breed did you get :farmer:
is it just not great one organisation lamp it on another one to get an easy time >:(
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Robert, according to someone on the Berkshire web site the sale was a disaster,lots of pigs going unsold and some selling at very low prices even though they where good stock. Should have left it at Ross on Wye it was a good one day sale there.
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If you go to the BPA website there is a paragraph on electronic movements and it says they will be holding regional meetings over the next six months to introduce these new services, there will also be something in practical pig magazine. Would have been nice if had been in the last edition before tt all actually kicked off.
Mandy :pig:
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have you had information from defra on this we have not
I received in the post a hard copy of what's online here:
http://www.eaml2.org.uk/resources/000/494/738/eAML2_keeper_mailout_letter__final.pdf (http://www.eaml2.org.uk/resources/000/494/738/eAML2_keeper_mailout_letter__final.pdf)
It arrived the same day tizaala started this topic
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Tamsaddle - you bought TWO pigs! When I spoke to you you said you were just taking the one. Well done on changing your mind and picking up a bargain. I'm sure they - and you - will be very happy!
Hope it all goes well.
Liz
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For my sins I am trying to write up the new system for our book.
I have now received answers to my first set of queries, and yes if you do not have internet access, you will need to phone BPEX at least two days before the move, you must legally wait for paperwork to be sent to you, and only then can move. As BPEX neatly and in civil service language explained it "it allows producers to set up movements days/weeks in advance but it is also appreciated that it may mean an adjustment to current working practices." ie no selling at weekends unless they booked before Thursday.
i have another set of queries, covering moves between engalns/wales and Scotalnd, export, moves from internet user to non-internet and visa versa, in other words anything but the standard move listed in the Q&A - will come back when I know any useful answers.
We are also listed twice, so if you do a move to us you have two choices, don't know if that makes me two producers or just the one so do i have two ets of internet records or one consolidated one - don't yet know !
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several thing wrong with the information that has been sent to the English and welsh
first it clearly states that the electronic forms are for FARM TO SLAUGHTER
not all slaughter houses have internet access
also the four easy steps also lists farm to farm and farm to market EHH are they forking stupid or have they let the cat out the bag
the only good thing is the slaughter house are going to send you carcase feedback that is if they are on the net :farmer:
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the bumfp I got in the post says
'You can set up your farm to Abattoir movement now with electronic Farm to Farm/Market/Show/Collection Centre/Import/ Export movements coming soon'
I had a guy pick up two weaners on sunday and told him to send the paperwork to Stoneleigh.
Well done Tam/saddle did you get the littermate to your Melody Gilt, I'm sure they will settle better as a pair. good luck with them.
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The whole thing is a total mess and a waste of taxpayers money, what happens if we all totaly ignore the new setup and keep posting movement sheets to the defra offices we have always used, and sod e'm ....let them sort it out. It's probably only a ploy to cut back on staff anyway so by flooding them with unwanted paper we are creating jobs! ......civil dissobediance is called for...squirrels of the world unite you've nothing to loose but your nuts. :farmer:
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Theyre obviously adapting the failed NHS patient record system to track pigs instead.
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Well they've got to do something with that £12 billion computer system, good smallholding practices waste not want not. :D :D :D :D
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, you must legally wait for paperwork to be sent to you, and only then can move. As BPEX neatly and in civil service language explained it "it allows producers to set up movements days/weeks in advance but it is also appreciated that it may mean an adjustment to current working practices." ie no selling at weekends unless they booked before Thursday.
Last winter we had 3 attempts to get to the butchers which were aborted due to snow how do we come on then?? same as people collecting my hire boar or bringing him back, put off due to unforeseen cuircumstances or bad weather? Don't think they've thought this thro too well. So wghat happens when you predict a move and its doesn't happen, can you cancel it?
Mandy :pig:
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Or find your land flooded on a Saturaday and need to move the pigs pronto !
Answer is that you need a working PC for the new system to work !
Anything else, and you better have planned ahead.
Still waiting for the AML projcet manager to come back to me on the many os q's i have (and I'm lining up more)
PS - have you Scots been told that you are now the same as England and Wales on ID (PRIMO Scotland 2011 came onto force 1st October), so no more move to Abattoir on paint mark 9must be tatoo or slapmark), and no more live to live move over 1 yr old on paintmark, although still paper movement forms.
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no diddly squat so far :farmer:
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no diddly squat so far :farmer:
Interesting...
You may want to read the whole thing :
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2011/327/pdfs/ssi_20110327_en.pdf (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/2011/327/pdfs/ssi_20110327_en.pdf)
Article 12 is interesting (scottish equiv of e-aml but without the e!):
"when moving pigs, the keeper must notify information [listed later] to the Scottish Ministers, either prior to the movement or on the day of the movement,"
Doesn't say how you are going to do this !
and then
"The keeper at the holding of destination must notify the information specified in paragraph (1) to the Scottish Ministers, within a period of 3 days commencing on the day of the arrival of the pigs."
so both sides have to tell them!
Maybe something for the SPKA to take up and understand? or maybe just keep heads down and hope that yet miore red tape doesn't actually get into effect
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oaklands why has it to be up to the spka to solve/inform on new legislation
NOW IF THE SPKA WERE TO BE FUNDED BY THE SCOTTISH GOVERMENT THEN THAT WOULD NOT BE A PROBLEM
UNFORTUNATLY WE DO NOT GET ANY FUNDING OTHER THAN SMALL DONATIONS AND ANY RESULTS OF LILLIANS BEGGING
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OK just a quick glance through the amended legislation
NOW I MAY BE WRONG BUT
paint marks are still legal
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers of this change the spka will finally find out how many pig holdings are in Scotland NOBODY CAN GIVE A DEFFINATE NUMBER JUST NOW
interesting part on pigs imported or exported live i would assume
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paint marks are still legal
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers of this change the spka will finally find out how many pig holdings are in Scotland NOBODY CAN GIVE A DEFFINATE NUMBER JUST NOW
interesting part on pigs imported or exported live i would assume
paint marks are still legal
- only live to live under 1 yr, not to abattoir or for pigs over 1 yr
the new legislation only applies to commercial pigs - not sure where you get that from - the regulations defines a pig as any pig except wild, and indeed the legislation includes walking pet pigs.
if the Scottish government ever get round to notifying ALL pig producers - agree with you, and would sincerely hope that AH Scotland or Scottish gov would not prosecute anyone for not complying, but the legal maxim "ignorant juris non excused" applies, so claiming you didn't know or were not told in no defence in law.
I was not suggesting any duty of the SPKA to act as an agent for the Scottish Government, merely that the SKPA might want to help it's members stay within the law as a service to it's members. It was just a suggestion, and even then I tempered it with a "or maybe..." :)
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bottom of page 3
oaklands if we have not been officialy informed how can we inform others
you are getting it wrong already (with no paint marks) :farmer:
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bottom of page 3 -simply allows the option of a producer group using their mark as an alternate to the herdmark, does not exempt others from needing to use a herdmark.
Anyway, my spies tell me that new guidance will be issues in late October or November (probably civil servoce speak for December!), so no need to worry until then, and no doubt all will become clear then.
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I was speaking to my AHO this afternoon (trading standards at the local council) she was telling me that they haven't even been given full guidance on it ::)
Her/mine/our understanding is that it applies to ALL pigs (whether commercial or not) and that the Scottish Government are the ones responsible for sending out the info.........if anyone wants to chase them up ;)
It was due to be out by now, but obviously isn't so for the meantime we have to continue as normal.
The paint mark issue as far as I can see has changed slightly. Pigs under a year can still move holding to holding on a temporary paint mark but if they are going to slaughter or market they must be marked with your herd number (either ear tag, tattoo or slapmark)
Robin, I think, once the animal health officers know what they're doing and the government finally gets round to sending out the info, that the Scottish Pig Keepers Association will either hold a 'workshop' with an AHO with a Q&A session at the end or write up an easy to understand version and circulate it to our members. Unfortunately we've not got every pig keeper in Scotland on our membership list, far from it :-\ But for those that are, we'll certainly be getting something out and hopefully we can spread the word amongst the non-members too :thumbsup:
It all feels a bit ar** for t*t at the minute though ::) :D
Karen :wave:
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HH,
Great to hear, i am trying to write up the English/Welsh new rules, but still have numerous Q's os with BPEX who are running the system. That their replies are taking a while does lead one to wonder how well thougth through the processes are.
Hopefully Scorland will have a more pracmatic version, but who knows !
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Pffft ::) Robin, Scotland's will be just as much of a nightmare to decipher as yours, I'm sure ::) ;)
But I'm not even starting to it til I've got an AHO who's familiar enough with it to answer the questions I'm going to have :o :D But it'll be just like the NHS optical prescription stuff - as soon as you get used to the system and iron out all the flaws, they'll go and change it again ::)
Legislation - don't ya just love it ! :P
Karen :wave:
Edit: Just to really make you feel great ::) my AHO suggested that they (the government) are toying with the idea of EID tags for pigs and bringing them in line with the sheep and cattle systems - how much fun and expense is that going to be for all us 'little guys' ???
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I had to ring animal health last Friday to get a flock number for the sheep and their letter had not arrived by Thursday so I rang again , and while I had them on the phone I asked about the pig situation and Welsh farmers without mobile signals and no computers, they put me onto a " spokes person " and I quote " dunno mate, It's causing major chaos, nobody has a clue how we are going to get it sorted by next year , It hasn't been thought through propperly, sodding Brussels." ..........Interesting !
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Think this new directive is also going to mean theres a lot more illegal moves, had a chap ring me up the other day about bringing a sow in for service, when i mentioned about an AML coming with her he said whats the point who the hell in Stoneleigh will care whether we've moved a pig or not! i told him that if he wanted to bring her to me he did so with paperwork or needn't bother coming!
How the heck are they going to police movements now, wil investigations still got thro' TS?
Mandy ??? :pig:
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Think this new directive is also going to mean theres a lot more illegal moves, had a chap ring me up the other day about bringing a sow in for service, when i mentioned about an AML coming with her he said whats the point who the hell in Stoneleigh will care whether we've moved a pig or not! i told him that if he wanted to bring her to me he did so with paperwork or needn't bother coming!
How the heck are they going to police movements now, wil investigations still got thro' TS?
Mandy ??? :pig:
Sadly I think the at least two days notice for thiose without computers will simply lead to more unreported moves, as the old boys (and girls) fail to grapple with this stuff.
I did my first e-aml from here on Sunday - System printed a very snotty letter about an "attempted" pig movement and not moving pigs without a herd no. and a £5,000 fine for me to give to my new pig keeping customer, who of course legally has 30 days to get their herdmark. Not a good introduction to Animal Health for someone new to pigs. Letter comes from a "customer contact" team, but the letter has no contact details so you can't respond to them !
Hey ho!
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if pigs are moved illegally either because they cant be bothered with the rules or they don't have a computer
what are they going to do with them after they get them more illegal moves or will home kills flourish
maybe that is the whole point of the introduction of these rules to fine and put on the gallows all those that do not comply or cant comply or is there more to this time is going to tell :farmer:
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Robert,
Hessitate to say this, but if buyer and seller both breed, then any trace of move can easily be undone in not born one end, and additional birth at the other.
Additionally moves dates could easily be fudged into the future eg move on Saturday will be phoned in on Monday to get paperwork for a mythical move the following Thurdsay. An outbreak on Tuesday would have no record of the move, and no-one likely to hold hands up, hense a contact/move would be lost that would have been reported otherwise.
I hope I am wrong !
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i was thinking more of the people buying for fattining never though of fudging the paperwork like you described
just have to wait and see how it all pans out
i was also under the impression the old system worked all right o well silly me onwards and upwards
bigger fans bigger piles of crap and soft touch switches :farmer:
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Contacted BPEX today about pig movements and suggested they have a look at this forum and our comments, a chap called Andrew Knowles (head of BPEX communications) says he will come on the forum and answer our questions so hopefully a result.
Mandy :pig:
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Good news,
I have several Q's os with BPEX at the moment an many more that i have not yet asked, so knowing what is happening would be good.
The site certainly needs updating (still says on the homepage they are sending out next week the letter which we all got in August)
The guides only cover registration - guides needed for farm to farm to farm, farm to market (and farm to show in due course), and a decent one for farm to slaughter - so that people can know ahead of doing it what info is needed, and covering both sender and receiver being on computer, sender on PC - receiver not, sender not on PC but receiver is, moves between E&W and Scotland (who still have paper at the mo), and import/export moves.
Additionally you are required to have a herdmark before you register, but the Defra guide to keeping pigs says to get this after you have got pigs, so if you follow the defra guide you get a very snotty letter from AHVLA saying that you are liable to a £5,000 fine. All AH's will now need to issue herdmarks before people get, so they can register with e-aml. And can someone stop this really awful letter being sent - it will just lead to less not more compliance, and makes AH look like a load of...
The system all over the place says "slapmark" which is only used for moves to slaughter (and then it is only one option), the correct term should be herdmark. Not being pedantic, many new pig keepers won't know what a slapmark is, or think they must slap a live to live move.
If you do a farm to farm e-aml, and know the registration no. of the haulier, and complete this, you STILL have to input it again to confirm move, there needs to be a check to say if you have already done it, and not to require it being re-input. Systems should not require the same data twice.
Any future communications should not repeat the "takes no longer than one minute" - this is simply not correct ! If receiver if not registered, it takes longer than a minute before you even start the form, and the form takes longer than one minute in nay case. You don't win friends by stretching the truth.
There should be an option to make the haulier the same as either the sender or receiver and as a result populate the address field - most smallholder moves are done by one or the other, and to have to type this is again leads to wasted time, and chance of error.
How will force majeaure be dealt with for those without PC's - eg I arrive on land and it is flooded, need to move pigs urgently, but have to give two days notice to BPEX and await a form before I can move.
Are BPEX sending out email forms to non-pc users first class?
Why are pigs with temporary marks required to complete "holding of birth" - I can see nothing in the legislation that requires this, and I may not know this in any case.
There seems to be no option for having one form with different types of pigs, so if I am taking 3 finishers and a cull sow to the abattoir or selling live do i have to fill in two forms? (and again i see nothing in law requiring the type of pigs being moved, so why is this being gathered?)
Has Wales yet passed the legislation that e-aml requires - i cannot trace this legislation.
Overall major question, why do those without computers now have to give at least two working days notice of a move, and await forms, when someone with a pc but not working printer, can use a pro-forma and handwrite the info that they have typed in. At least then those moving pigs at the weekend would only need to decide this on Friday at 4.45pm phone the details through and then do a hand pro-forma, not have to decide Wednesday or otherwise have to break the law.
That's my list so far.
Look forward to the answers.
PS and while I think of it, presume BPEX covers Scotland (as part of Britain!), so when will the new Scottish movement rules (and system?) come in requiring notification on the day, and how will it work?
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I'm glad we've got you guys, oaklands & Mandy (Fowgill)
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Dear Mandy and other participants on this forum
Firstly thank you for all the feedback on this forum which is a site I wasn't previously aware of. Can I also thank oaklands pigs for the valuable feedback and observations as BPEX doesn't pretend to have a monopoly on wisdom and knowledge on the subject of pig movements and eAML2.
Forgive me for not responding to every post on this forum but hopefully I can cover off some of the main point that are being raised.
The eAML2 project is a Defra project and BPEX is contracted by Defra to deliver the solution of a robust electronic pig movement service.
The reasons for introducing the new eAML2 system
These are numerous but include the following:
Current paper AML2 system can take up to approximately 3 weeks for movements to be entered on to the government data base which is unsatisfactory especially in the case of a major disease outbreak resulting in long standstill periods for pig keepers, mounting welfare issues etc
Current paper system has no way of identifying errors in data, missing data and checking standstill periods are correctly enforced etc
Currently Defra, Animal Health, RPA etc do not have a robust database of all the pig keepers in the country, it only collects details on new keepers but cannot track changes in details or remove premises which no longer keep pigs. hence the reason for the eAML2 letter going out to people no longer in pigs and people being asked to confirm details where the current database is out of date.
The benefits of eAML2
As an individual pig keeper
Reduction in duplicate paperwork especially on moves to slaughter where at present you have to complete an AML2 and an FCI form both requesting the same information in slightly different formats
Its quick and easy to do (once you have completed the initial registration of all your details)
You get your Meat Inspection reports back by e-mail automatically which enables pig keepers to understand and identify emerging health and welfare issues at an early stage
As a sector
We all get the benefit of a much more accurate and constantly updated herd register of all premises where pigs are being legally kept. I am sure I don't need to spell out how important this if for disease control reason and maximising pig health and welfare.
We free up trading standards time etc so they can more effectively devote time to identifying and following up situations where pigs are being kept at unregistered premises etc which again I am sure everybody understands the importance of.
By having an accurate database of pig keepers we can more effective communicate and so avoiding in future the frustrations some people on this site have expressed about poor communication.
We all have a common and correct understanding of the law regarding pig identification and movement (and it is clear from some of the comments on this forum regarding slap marks and herd marks and temporary paint marks that there is a need for this).
Why pre-notification of pig movements?
By having pre notification of movements everybody involved in a pig movement has an awareness of what is going on and we capture the pig movement information in a matter of days not weeks as at present.
Throughout developing the eAML2 system we have sat down with pig farmers and keepers, markets, show organisers, abattoirs, hauliers, marketing organisations etc and used their knowledge and experience to guide the processes we have followed. Yes pre notification is a move away from the current system, but everybody said that it was not a big issue and that the vast majority of pig movements do have some element of pre notification at present anyway (you will all no doubt be aware that you don't have to pre notify a move to a market for eAML2).
What if I don't have a computer?
If you don't have access to a computer or wish not to use a computer for your pig movements that is personal decision and you have the option to use the MLCSL eAML2 service. It doesn't mean a 2 working day pre notification as some have stated on this forum, you can fax or phone the intended movement details through to them and they will fax you back a haulier summary, you just have to allow sufficient time for that process to be completed. Of course if you have the haulier summary posted back to you you will need to allow sufficient time and therefore need to call in a few days in advance .
And the MLCSL service is 9-5 Monday to Friday partly to save tax payers money (as it is funded by Defra not the BPEX levy) and partly because everybody from industry agreed that actually that was sufficient to cover the overwhelming majority of calls. Yes there will always be the occasional query on a Sunday morning which it would be great to respond to immediately but in reality it is imposable to justify manning a helpline through Saturday and Sunday on the off chance of a call.
Has eAMl2 been thoroughly thought through?
To address another concern that eAML2 hasn't been thought through in detail, I can assure you it has been developed in considerable detail and has been operating for farm to slaughter movements for well over 18 months in a large national pilot and well over 6 months for farm to farm movements. At present well over 45% of pig movements are taking place via the eAML2 service. it’s well over a quarter of all F-S moves
The reason for a delay in responding to specific e-mail queries is more a reflection of prioritising the work load of the eAML2 helpline to respond to calls seeking advice and guidance following the recent mailing to in excess of 30,000 pig keepers which as you would expect has caused a short term spike in demand on the helpline.
eAML2 is not capturing any new or different information that is currently required to be completed on existing AML2 or FCI forms. Whether people have been correctly filling out the current forms is a different issue but not a matter for BPEX to comment on.
The eAML2 project has had to develop a common movement process which works for business of all sizes, from a keeper of a single pig through to large pig farms, for movements of every type including farm to farm, abattoir, shows, markets, vets, exports etc, and we have gone about this is a structure, methodical and detailed way.
What is happening in Scotland?
This is a Defra project (not a BPEX project) and the Defra project covers England and Wales. Scotland have decided to develop their own independent electronic pig movement scheme but have given Defra assurances that it will interface with the eAMl2 system before the end of the eAML2 transitional period of 31 March 2012.
Why hasn't anybody told you about eAML2 before now?
There has been a constant stream of articles on eAMl2 over the past two years in the regional press, national trade press, pig press, internet, membership organisations etc. We have sent out posters to markets, abattoirs, haulier and fliers to all pig keepers we have on our databases. I spent three days in Wales last year running workshops on eAMl2, but in the absence of a database of all pig keepers in England and Wales we unfortunately cannot guarantee that the message gets sent through every letter box, or even gets read if it does make it to the right letter box so I thank this site for helping spread the word.
eAMl2 is a change from the old AML2 paper system and change isn't always well received by everybody (the introduction of AML2 wasn't exactly a popular move when it came into existence). It will require all of us to think about how we do things and maybe in some circumstances mean we have to slightly modify how we do things. However it will bring benefits to both individual pig keepers and the whole of the pig sector. I and colleagues in BPEX will do our best to try and help make the change as easy and painless as possible and I know from past experience the pig sector will demonstrate why it is wisely regarded as the most progressive and forward thinking part.
Thank you once again for having the opportunity to contribute to this forum
Andrew Knowles, BPEX a division of Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board
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Thank you Andrew for your comprehensive reply which reads somewhat toeing the party line/teaching to suck eggs! and doesn't directly answer any our particular questions eg what happens if we advise a move and it doesn't happen? and some of the more pertinent questions asked by Oaklands. We all know the reason behind moving to the new sytem and whilst we have no problem with the sytem itself you will admit it does need some tweaking here and there as already pointed out above. You say that 45% of movements are done electronically but that it is only 25% of F-S movements so you've still got 75% to go! and i would suggest that the 25% are the commercial boys not smallholders like ourselves with only 2 or 3 sows. You say it will reduce paperwork but everyone i know who uses it still has to take a paper AMl with them just in case so we are duplicating work! And the office only being open 9 - 5, a lot of small keepers work in other jobs and do their paperwork at night or weekends. A lot of small keepers have not even heard of you or believe that you're only work for the commercial boys and the majority of us would relate or know more about/to the BPA (a cross we have to bear). I admit to binning stuff that come from BPEX becoz i don't believe it relates to me or my pigs. and i certainly don't consider myself to be part of any sector!, we don't do many market movements either so sorry we ain't noticed that one! You say its difficult answering all our questions but that mainly beause the people working on the helpline could be as well inputting data on beans or toilet rolls as pigs.
One size you will find does not fit all.
So i don't really see many answers in your reply, but you'd make a darn good politician!
Mandy :pig:
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or a drug salesman to the doctors ;) :farmer:
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hi well im lost on this one and its the first ive heard of it must amit today was the first time ive actualy read this thread and im a pig keeper , also im a dunce with pc and also dyslisc so get family or friends to help with my forms it took me hours to raed and the had to get my oldest daughter to try and explain it to me , so does it meen when i take my pigs to slaughter i need to do a pc form , if so think i had better arrange some one to be here to help me with it , thats going to be fun as my faimly live over 5 hours away at least with the paper forms i just signed them and added my numbers then gave them to buyer to help me with or when i brought pigs the seller did the forms this could stop me keeping pigs as its taking me ages to understand the paper ones :'(
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Mandy
As I belive i said earlier, apologies I have not responded to every single query riased on this forum.
To be clear, if you set up a movement on eAML2 but the movement does take place YOU DONT HAVE TO DO ANYTHING. A movement is only completed and confirmed when the reciptent of the pigs confirms the number of pigs that have arrived (just the same as the current paper based system).
I dont differentiate between any scale of pig keeping/farming, the importance of health, welfare, biosecurity and husbandry is the same for 1 sow as it is for 1000 sows and BPEX represents all scales of business and is funded by all scales of business. My job is to try and provide relevant and commercially appropriate services to all pihg keepers.
I hope that helps
Regards
AK
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Andy your wasted as a bpex rep get yourself into politics ;) :farmer:
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Andy your wasted as a bpex rep get yourself into politics ;) :farmer:
Perhaps he has scruples? ;)
Andrew, thank you very much for taking the time to come on this forum and enlighten us. Please don't take offence at any brusqueness of tone, we are all a bit world-weary when it comes to Defra initiatives, identification and movements, I think. (I certainly am, I can't be restrained and polite about sheep EID at all, I just can't.)
It's very useful to have someone with your inside knowledge and clarity of expression to direct our queries and concerns to.
Thanks again
Sally
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Andrew,
Thanks for taking the time to respond, and the more communications that BPEX does for smallholders the better. I presume that as people register you will be able to use email to communicate quicker and more efficiently and highlight any changes to the systems.
Frankly the big boys pose no significant disease risk, as they are paranoid about introducing anything into their units, much as it pains me to say if pigs pose a risk it will be by smallholders.
Given that this new system is going to happen whether we like it or not, my aim is to make this as workable as possible before the compulsory date.
This is why it is key that the new system provides a benefit for smallholders rather than a chore to them, and for the system to work effort to ensure that clear easy to understand instructions backed up by knowledgeable help staff as will make a huge difference to compliance.
Those with PCs on site (such as ourselves) will find the new system in the main a benefit, but it is those who have offsite PCs and indeed no PCs that are the real issue with the system/law as implemented. The law is not of course a BPEX issue as such, you are providing a solution to a Defra set of rules. However with my Mr. Grumpy hat on a response of "someone without a PC can receive a fax" is a little Marie Antoinette to say the least! We need a workable solution if people are not to bypass or fudge the system.
I have been in contact with AHVLA, and the terrible letter they sent out has been amended, and will be amended further.
I am also in contact with one of the BPEX project managers and guides are being added.
It would be good to know if the system is up for further amendments, such as suggested in my previous post on haulier registration no., making haulier the sender/receiver, holding of birth details, different types of pigs etc. and responses on other issues such as force majeure, whether BPEX are sending out first class. Andrew is this a good place to ask these? or should I continue to log them onto the BPEX system or contact my new best project manager friend.
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At the risk of becoming tiresome, I have decided to no. my os list so that I can track it, and have added a few more over the weekend
1. The guides do not cover what is needed for new users not just of the system, but also the concept, legal reqs and processes of e-aml. The present guides only show part of the screens, and do not list what data users need ahead of starting a transfer.
2. More critically a full guide to using the WHOLE e-aml system (not just screen shots) is needed covering both sender and receiver being on computer, sender on PC - receiver not, sender not on PC but receiver is, moves between E&W and Scotland (who still have paper at the mo), and import/export moves. For instance where is a user told if they are sending to a user who does not have a PC, they should hand two copies of the form to the haulier, one for him and one for the receiver - just one of 15 different process possibilities excluding sms !
3. The Defra new pig keeping guide needs to be updated to get registration for a herdmark before getting pigs, so that users can register with e-aml which requires this info [this is with Phil Qua of AHVLA]
4. The system all over the place says "slapmark" (for instance in a location search, at the start of a farm to farm move) which is only used for moves to slaughter (and then it is only one option), the correct term should be herdmark. Not being pedantic, many new pig keepers won't know what a slapmark is, or think they must slap a live to live move.
5. If a user does a farm to farm e-aml, and knows the vehicle registration no. of the haulier, and completes this, they STILL have to input it again to confirm move, there needs to be a check to say if you have already done it, and not to require it being re-input. Systems should not require the same data twice.
6. How will force majeaure be dealt with for those without PC's - eg a holder arrives on land and it is flooded, need to move pigs urgently, but not PC user so have to give two days notice to BPEX and await a form before they can move?
7. Are BPEX sending out email forms to non-pc users first class?
8. Why are pigs with temporary marks required to complete "holding of birth" - I can see nothing in the legislation that requires this, and users may not know this in any case, in which case what should they enter?
9. Why is it required that the type of pigs being moved must be entered? This was only on the old form for convenience to let several pigs to be listed for ease of haulier and receiver, but since on e-aml you cannot have multiple lines (just one type or “mixed”) it is now redundant and I see nothing in law requiring the type of pigs being moved, so why is this data being gathered?
10. Has Wales yet passed the legislation that e-aml requires - I cannot trace this legislation.
11. Overall major question, why do those without computers now have to give at least two working days notice of a move, and await forms, when someone with a pc but not working printer, can use a pro-forma and handwrite the info that they have typed in. At least then those moving pigs at the weekend would only need to decide this on Friday at 4.45pm phone the details through and then do a hand pro-forma, not have to decide Wednesday or otherwise have to break the law. And PC users don’t tend to have fax either, which was a suggested answer.
12. The movement archive is very “bitty”. To reconcile my movement book with the system for say the last 3 months, a user would need to look at both received and purchased, and within sent area do three additional areas (F/S, F/F, F/M), and within each of those arras a further 4 categories, making a total of 18 searches ! and this is before movements to shows, which presumably would add another 4 searches. A single list showing all moves on and off by date would be far more useful to the average user, who really has no interest in whether sent moves have been “completed” or indeed sent to the local authority, but merely for sent moves whether they are pending or sent, and for received whether they are pending or completed.
13. The received movement area doesn’t have “received movements” as a category only “sent movements” - presume this is a typo?
14. The legislation requires a user to notify BPEX using the system or phone of an intended move. This would create a “pending” move in the system. There is another duty on the receiver to notify BPEX by system or phone etc. within 3 days. There is nothing in the legislation requiring the confirmation of sending which os part of the PC process, but it looks likely that a receiver cannot confirm receipt of a move until this confirmation has been sent. Since there are no email reminders of pending moves (seem to remember there are for F/S?), it is quite possible for the sender to forget to confirm, at which point the whole process is held up? Since the sender is not breaking any law by doing this, what happens? If the receiver cannot use the system to notify within 3 days does he need to phone to be legal? If on the other hand (and of course I have no way to seeing how the system does things without doing real moves, and the guides do not cover all this stuff – see item 2!) the receiver can confirm, does this negate the need for the sender to confirm? And since this all seems to hold up the movement being sent to AH, this doesn’t really help them keep on top of what is happening in their area. In other words the whole system could fall apart, but everyone be legal ! Knowing how this process all works would be very useful as would a full guide!
15. A user has to enter dates (loading and departing) and time. This is presumably to cover the very rare but possible situation where pigs are starting to be loaded before midnight and completed after. This means that the user has to type the same date in twice and in long hand dd/mm/yyyy. Changing the second box to be called “Departure date if different” would allow a single date entry. The form subsequently could simply use the first box data in the “departure date” unless a different date is entered.
16. The ability to pick a date rather than enter date longhand from a calendar display would also aid accuracy of entry for loading (and departure dates), particularly where some farmers might be from say American origin and familiar with different orders.
17. Where a user has not yet registered, and the sender is entering details for a new location, they have to enter certain details (holding No. address, postcode etc.)- one of these boxes is called “company name” – the vast majority of pig keepers will not be companies – a simple “name” here would be better.
18. The Defra pig keeping guide (www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf)) says that “The eAML2 system is run on 2 servers so there is always a back up if one server goes down. In the unlikely event that both servers are down keepers should revert to paper and forward a copy of the HS/MD to the MLCSL paper bureau for keying (the address for the MLCSL bureau is in Annex 1). It is advised that keepers keep blank copies of the HS template to allow for any such occurrence. HS/MD template is available from markets and MLCSL. “ This advice should be repeated on the e-aml site(and in the guide)
19. The Defra guide ((www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf)) says on page 16 that an imported pig must be entered on the system – how is this achieved, as there appears to be no area on the system to do this.
20. I presume a/several further communications are planned before the April deadline setting out the new rules in detail. For instance a non-computer user has not been told that they must phone/fax etc. confirmation of move within 3 days, or indeed that they need to register.
21. Given that a receiver must confirm a move within 3 days [this is not working days in the legislation], can BPEX/Defra confirm that non-pc users, whilst guilty of an offence, will not be sanctioned for a move say over Easter, where it is not possible to do this due to help lines being closed.
22. If I search for myself as destination on a farm to farm, if I enter “holding no.” as first search item, and “slapmark” as second the system finds me. If Ii enter “slapmark” as first search item, and “holding no.” as second it does not. Postcode first and holding no. second also doesn’t find me, but other way around does.
23. I cannot pick farm address as second choice – why not?
24. There is no published fax no. for BPEX, what is the number, and can it be added to the website
Andrew - how do you wish me to progress these?
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Robin, I hope you get some answers - keep us posted with progress ;) I'm definately interested to hear what they say :thumbsup:
Karen :wave:
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well that will keep them busy for a while
on the live importation this this a sign of intention that the pig market is buggered and it is going to be added to with live importations of pigs from Europe
OR IS THIS A BUILD UP TO ANOTHER OUTBREAK OF F/M
despite all the movement restrictions that were implemented on the back of the last outbreak this proves that they were not working
PAINTMARK pigs are the only animal that you do not need to identify as to the place of origin that is to look at the paint mark and say with confidence that pig came from Bert smiths farm forget the paperwork we have already been told that it can take weeks to trace the paperwork
go get em oaklands :farmer:
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God luck in getting some answers Oaklands.
Can i also mention that they say phone or fax. The phone number is an 0845 number which we all know is prohibitively expensive from a mobile and its charged at a rate which is not local (locals start 0345 now) also they say fax but has anybody seen sight or sound of a fax number??? ::) ??? I have always faxed AML's, i've got pigs coming on this week and i know for a fact the sender wil not be au fait with all this, can hardly wait to explain it all to her!
Mandy :pig:
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I have added fax as no. 24.
If anyone wants others added, let me know
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just like to say factory closed because they cant get any pigs all being exported because buyers paying more for pigs
factory with full order book to supply pigs for12 months
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where is the factory located :farmer:
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factory is in south cheshire
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I mentioned earlier that the abattoir I use isn't electronic yet. Up until now I've been completing my FCI form on the BPEX site, then printing it off for the abattoir. The abattoir I use have been truly amazed by this 'computer form', but take it and think it's something 'magical'!!
Well to my amazement when I went online to complete the form for my abattoir trip planned for this morning, the site confirmed that the abattoir were now part of the electronic system!!!! and I could use the new eaml2 site.
Very exciting!
I went on there and completed everything, printing one copy off for my husband to take (and sending a hand written aml2 form with him too....just in case!!)
Hubby just arrived back saying the abattoir had no idea at all what the new form was and were wondering what I was up to now with my 'computer stuff'!!
Ah well.....it was exciting for a while.
I went online to confirm the movement, so hope I've done everything right.
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IHubby just arrived back saying the abattoir had no idea at all what the new form was and were wondering what I was up to now with my 'computer stuff'!!
Ah well.....it was exciting for a while.
I went online to confirm the movement, so hope I've done everything right.
This is not surprising, and yes we recommend that everyone takes a second form for the abattoir. Our abattoir insist that you have a paper copy of the electronic form. This makes perfect sense, as without it all they have are a) your word that you did something with a computer and b) some pigs and an eartag/slapmark which they can't track back to anything. Therefore they would want something with an address on, how many pigs, what their mark is - Best thing for that - yes the form !
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Hi. Have done this twice now. Both farm to farm transfer when I 've sold weaners. The first time worked fine. Second time have given up on and sent paper form alone. It keeps tellign me there is an error :-(
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What a bloody shambles this will be, it can't work unless everyone is singing off the same hymn sheet, which we are with the paper. How many times will we hear the cry " it's not showing on or system so you must have done it wrong." the only thing to justify this " change for the better" is the fact that a lot of civil servants will loose their jobs as they won't be needed at local offices. Tracability my arse.
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I spoke to the helpline lady and she said it will be much more straightforward when I'm transferring to market or to slaughterhouse. Not much help when it's two farm transfers I've had recently. Seems the problem was that the farm I was moving them to wasn't registered properly or that I was entering info different from what had been registered. I got it right in the end but then it wouldn't take it because it was after the event. Never Mind. Next time it will be to market so should be ok.
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Shambles is an understatement, especially for people like me where nearly all my movements are farm to farm. I only take pigs to slaughter twice a year and i don't do markets, i have pigs coming in for sow B&B and most of them are unregistered crosses who don't have an ear tag let alone a tattoo or notching, most come on the AML as 1 sow colour and if i'm lucky the owners herd number!!! Try inputting that lot!! Most of my buyers are newbies and have barely heard of the BPA let alone BPEX, the real trouble is computers don't allow for the human factor at least at my local TS they do and they only have to ring me for an explanation so they can sort something for me.
We are in the lap of the Gods, heaven, allah, buddah, beelsibub and anbody who can help please do so.!!!
Mandy :pig:
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I've just registered.
Trotters crossed nothing happens to me that stops me from using a computer, because my husband will be well and truly up a creek without a paddle !! He neither uses or will learn to use a computer - more chance of the pigs completing their own eaml2's ::)
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Hubby went to market yesterday and the Trading Standards man there said it was a nightmare and he didn't think it would work very well. so it seems to be a c**k up at all levels.
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to bring this back up to the top again
it is not just the e aml that is changing the legislation on keeping and recording pigs has also changed and again you can drive a coach and horse through it i will post them up once the techie ones can be persuaded to do it
it also appears that the officials that run and monitor the act do not know themselves what is required
tag or tattoo has to be proceded by the letters UK(English and welsh are already complying) in Scotland you do not need the UK part or at least Judith Reid at galla says that is only for sheep there is no start date for this UK addition IE born before date and a born after date you cant alter a tattoo or tag or remove any tag
looks very interesting and wonder how many officials will be off with a nervous reaction :farmer:
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Bumping this back to the top again, any news on any of your queries yet oaklands?
Sent an AML by post to stoneleigh the other day but faxed a copy to my usual TS as well for good measure!
Mandy :pig:
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Yes, I have had a response, but have been concreting today, and prepping for it last few days, so have not really gone through it thoroughly.
I will post next week when I have reviewed, but will need some further clarifications to some of the Q's.
I am disappointed that Andrew Knowles has not come back to this forum, or responded to both a PM and direct email from me; as a head of comms I would have thought that engaging with your customers was at the top of you role objectives, and early intervention saves much anguish later..
I still feel that BPEX is singularly failing to understand that whilst the non-indoor commercials only represent 1.5% of pigs moved, they represent 36% of all movements (Defra figures), and with a budget of peanuts to run the service, they cannot be employing many people. Therefore their current attitude of of "no need to have guides - people can ring the helpline" will bite them severely when it becomes compulsory in April.
Most smallholders will not try the service until it becomes compulsory as a) they had a letter way back in August without any follow up to say now live, so have forgotton about it and b) won't tend to change what they do until forced.
I think (but hope not) that there will be meltdown in April.
i am not a Luddite - spent 30 years in IT, and would dearly love this to work - it will certainly benefit us when the bugs have been ironed out.
However at present i still contend that those developing it have
a) not understood DCO 2003, WATO 2007, EU 1/2005, and PRIMO 2011 fully, so are collecting information to which they are not entitled by law
b) have under-estimated how many people do not use the BPA, so have relied on BPA as the voice of the smallholder
c) think everyone has PC's on site or fax machines
Apart from Farm to slaughter which we have been doing since on-line was an option, I have shyed from using this service after my first attempt, as it a) took me much longer, and b) a month after the move, it is still showing as "sent" so receiver has not done their bit, and TS have not been informed of the move. a move to hailsham market was doen on paper, as if you've seen the B&Q shed that acts as mission control there, you'd know that power, let alone a data line, does not exist ! The very efficient lady who runs this expertly would simply not cope with us turning up with no paperwork, and expecting her to work it out !
In case BPEX, BPA or others are reading this - am genuinely keen that this should work - engage with us and you'll find that we come on-side quite easily when issues are recognised and addressed.
Rant over - will post again next week
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I only know that a letter has been sent out explaining this whole business because I read it here. Certainly haven't received any letter. Having followed this thread I've read up about it on the BPA website so I suppose I know as much as anyone now. When I asked the bloke at the abattoir about it a couple of weeks ago he didn't know what I was on about. In fact even when I phoned my local animal health office to get hold of some AML2 forms they didn't mention anything about the new system. There will be a lot of pig keepers out there who know absolutely nothing about any of this.
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I've not seen sight of a letter about this, either. Maybe that's because I'm in Scotland?
Everything I know about it I've read in this message thread.
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I got a phonecall from the market following them getting info about it (I was taking weaners to sell) the young chap there was busy telling me that all pigs have to be electronically tagged :o ::) so I explained that wasn't the case and that I'd be bringing them with tags bearing the herdmark as per legislation ;)
So if the folks who are higher up the chain don't know what they're doing with it - what hope is there for the rest of us ???
Gary, you should be getting something through between the 4th and 7th of November - according to the AHO I spoke to ;)
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I am disappointed that Andrew Knowles has not come back to this forum, or responded to both a PM and direct email from me; as a head of comms I would have thought that engaging with your customers was at the top of you role objectives, and early intervention saves much anguish later..
However at present i still contend that those developing it have
a) not understood DCO 2003, WATO 2007, EU 1/2005, and PRIMO 2011 fully, so are collecting information to which they are not entitled by law
b) have under-estimated how many people do not use the BPA, so have relied on BPA as the voice of the smallholder
c) think everyone has PC's on site or fax machines
In case BPEX, BPA or others are reading this - am genuinely keen that this should work - engage with us and you'll find that we come on-side quite easily when issues are recognised and addressed.
I echo Oaklands thoughts exactly, most of the people i sell weaners to have never heard of the BPA let alone BPEX, i do encourage new owners to join the BPA by giving them a leaflet but from my own investigations i know they don't bother. I think though the BPA is a good place to start for smaller herd owners but it doesn't cover everyone and at present i don't know an umbrella organisation that does, even the breed clubs don't cover all the people that keep their breeds as we have found at the GOS club. Communication from authorites sadly in the non-commercial pig world is very hit & miss and i think its thro forums like this that they could best put ideas forward and explain the finer points of new proposals, sadly all we get is the cart before the horse scenarios. BPEX say they consulted but i personally don't know any pig keepers that were polled/questioned.
Unfortunately i fear meltdown will happen in April and moving any stock will be a nightmare, right on the prime time of year for selling weaners!
Sends shivers down my spine.
Mandy :pig:
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Gary, you should be getting something through between the 4th and 7th of November - according to the AHO I spoke to ;)
Thanks Karen. Be interesting to see whether they've learned anything from the trials.
Our Hamish should be going off to Dingwall before Yuletide.
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Just want to bump this back to the top, wondered if anyone had any comebacks or incidents with new routine of sending in AML's or dealing with Stoneleigh. Any sign of a fax number yet?
Mandy :pig:
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Right – have at last got round to looking at the response from BPEX to my initial Q’s
Format below is
My original question
BPEX response
Additional comments from me
1. The guides do not cover what is needed for new users not just of the system, but also the concept, legal reqs and processes of e-aml. The present guides only show part of the screens, and do not list what data users need ahead of starting a transfer.
These are quick start guides only to get people set up initially. The system is designed to be intuitive and users are encouraged to phone the helpline to get a quick turnaround on their query. From experience not many people read lengthy ‘manuals’.
2. More critically a full guide to using the WHOLE e-aml system (not just screen shots) is needed covering both sender and receiver being on computer, sender on PC - receiver not, sender not on PC but receiver is, moves between E&W and Scotland (who still have paper at the mo), and import/export moves. For instance where is a user told if they are sending to a user who does not have a PC, they should hand two copies of the form to the haulier, one for him and one for the receiver - just one of 15 different process possibilities excluding sms !
Not really a satisfactory answer to Q's 1 & 2, although hopefully further guides will follow – i am chasing for more progress on this.
4. The system all over the place says "slapmark" (for instance in a location search, at the start of a farm to farm move) which is only used for moves to slaughter (and then it is only one option), the correct term should be herdmark. Not being pedantic, many new pig keepers won't know what a slapmark is, or think they must slap a live to live move.
Thanks – we will get that amended where applicable.
5. If a user does a farm to farm e-aml, and knows the vehicle registration no. of the haulier, and completes this, they STILL have to input it again to confirm move, there needs to be a check to say if you have already done it, and not to require it being re-input. Systems should not require the same data twice.
we looked into this option in the outset but there was not a satisfying solution for various reasons – will re-visit again.
6. How will force majeaure be dealt with for those without PC's - eg a holder arrives on land and it is flooded, need to move pigs urgently, but not PC user so have to give two days notice to BPEX and await a form before they can move?
Where are the 2 days notice from; animals should not be on unsuitable land in the first place; producer can call the helpline for instantaneous recording: producer to record the individual movement reference that is thereby created on a blank haulier summary template, which all producers are advised to have copies of. These can be obtained from the bureau service.
“animals should not be on unsuitable land in the first place” – so no animals to be kept in the lake district or cuumbria presumably !! I Am querying this back on using pro-formas, if true then at least an instant mon-fri with hand written would be possible.
7. Are BPEX sending out email forms to non-pc users first class?
yes if not by fax
BPEX seem obsessed that farmers without PC’s all have fax machines !
8. Why are pigs with temporary marks required to complete "holding of birth" - I can see nothing in the legislation that requires this, and users may not know this in any case, in which case what should they enter? we are replicating what is on the current AML2 paper form; a query for Defra re legislation.
Not an answer I am happy with, as BPEX is the data owner, they must know what data they are legally required to keep, and what is optional.
9. Why is it required that the type of pigs being moved must be entered? This was only on the old form for convenience to let several pigs to be listed for ease of haulier and receiver, but since on e-aml you cannot have multiple lines - Just one type eg weaners or “mixed” or “both”. And what does “Both” mean as a choice? Is this part now redundant and I see nothing in law requiring the type of pigs being moved, so why is this data being gathered?
See above answer, but required for the FCI (Food Chain Information). Yes, this is from the initial phase when there weren’t as many different types to select. Already amended on website: Both is finished & cull
I could argue this one further (eg FCI data is not specified in law, and farm to farm is not FCI) , but frankly theer are more important issues.
10. Has Wales yet passed the legislation that e-aml requires - I cannot trace this legislation
The legislation is out for consultation, ending 1.11. as far as we are aware. Defra is liaising with the WelshGovernment on this.
11. Overall major question, why do those without computers now have to give at least two working days notice of a move, and await forms, when someone with a pc but not working printer, can use a pro-forma and handwrite the info that they have typed in. At least then those moving pigs at the weekend would only need to decide this on Friday at 4.45pm phone the details through and then do a hand pro-forma, not have to decide Wednesday or otherwise have to break the law. And PC users don’t tend to have fax either, which was a suggested answer.
They don’t - You have to get your movement details on eAML2 before making the move and need to allow enough time to get the haulier summary sheet either print it your self or have it posted/faxed/emailed to you. You can phone the move in and have the HS faxed back/emailed to you for printing. Haulier summary pro-forma are only valid with an individual movement reference, which is automatically created by the service once a move it set up. This can be obtained by either phoning the bureau or having set the movement up yourself.[oaklands is populating this as he types, so apologies that it is being added to !]
not quite what the law says, but if BPEX are happy that people following this route will be OK, then fine
12. The movement archive is very “bitty”. To reconcile my movement book with the system for say the last 3 months, a user would need to look at both received and purchased, and within sent area do three additional areas (F/S, F/F, F/M), and within each of those arras a further 4 categories, making a total of 18 searches ! and this is before movements to shows, which presumably would add another 4 searches. A single list showing all moves on and off by date would be far more useful to the average user, who really has no interest in whether sent moves have been “completed” or indeed sent to the local authority, but merely for sent moves whether they are pending or sent, and for received whether they are pending or completed.
I was already looking into the options to re-structure the archive.
Good news
13. The received movement area doesn’t have “received movements” as a category - only “sent movements” - presume this is a typo?
no typo but the word might be misleading and I arranged already to get that changed
14. The legislation requires a user to notify BPEX using the system or phone of an intended move. This would create a “pending” move in the system. There is another duty on the receiver to notify BPEX by system or phone etc. within 3 days. There is nothing in the legislation requiring the confirmation of sending which is part of the PC process, but it looks likely that a receiver cannot confirm receipt of a move until this confirmation has been sent. Since there are no email reminders of pending moves (seem to remember there are for F/S?), it is quite possible for the sender to forget to confirm, at which point the whole process is held up? Since the sender is not breaking any law by doing this, what happens? If the receiver cannot use the system to notify within 3 days does he need to phone to be legal? If on the other hand (and of course I have no way to seeing how the system does things without doing real moves, and the guides do not cover all this stuff – see item 2!) the receiver can confirm, does this negate the need for the sender to confirm? And since this all seems to hold up the movement being sent to AH, this doesn’t really help them keep on top of what is happening in their area. In other words the whole system could fall apart, but everyone be legal ! Knowing how this process all works would be very useful as would a full guide!
Not at all: the system will flag up any user that has outstanding feedback/confirmation and chase processes will kick in for the relevant user to confirm the relevant data, so that movements will be confirmed and uploaded to the government movement database.
Need to go back on this, as a) I don't understand the process, and b) I haven't seem this happen to the move I tried!
15. A user has to enter dates (loading and departing) and time. This is presumably to cover the very rare but possible situation where pigs are starting to be loaded before midnight and completed after. This means that the user has to type the same date in twice and in long hand dd/mm/yyyy. Changing the second box to be called “Departure date if different” would allow a single date entry. The form subsequently could simply use the first box data in the “departure date” unless a different date is entered.
This has to do with WATO regulations
No it doesn't it has to do with decent computer coding, but don't expect it to change
16. The ability to pick a date rather than enter date longhand from a calendar display would also aid accuracy of entry for loading (and departure dates), particularly where some farmers might be from say American origin and familiar with different orders.
Differing viewpoints – from feedback we used this form of data entry exactly to prevent mistakes
17. Where a user has not yet registered, and the sender is entering details for a new location, they have to enter certain details (holding No. address, postcode etc.)- one of these boxes is called “company name” – the vast majority of pig keepers will not be companies – a simple “name” here would be better.
We will put it like that: ‘(company) name’.
18. The Defra pig keeping guide (www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf)) says that “The eAML2 system is run on 2 servers so there is always a back up if one server goes down. In the unlikely event that both servers are down keepers should revert to paper and forward a copy of the HS/MD to the MLCSL paper bureau for keying (the address for the MLCSL bureau is in Annex 1). It is advised that keepers keep blank copies of the HS template to allow for any such occurrence. HS/MD template is available from markets and MLCSL. “ This advice should be repeated on the e-aml site(and in the guide)
yes the website text is to be updated and will include this guidance
19. The Defra guide ((www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf (http://www.defra.gov.uk/publications/files/pb13647-pig-keepers-guide.pdf)) says on page 16 that an imported pig must be entered on the system – how is this achieved, as there appears to be no area on the system to do this.
From beg of November
20. I presume a/several further communicatiosn are planned before the April deadline setting out the new rules in detail. For instance a non-computer user has not been told that they must phone/fax etc. confirmation of move within 3 days, or indeed that they need to register.
We have indeed planned further communications through various channels prior to April 201221. Given that a receiver must confirm a move within 3 days [this is not working days in the legislation], can BPEX/Defra confirm that non-pc users, whilst guilty of an offence, will not be sanctioned for a move say over Easter, where it is not possible to do this due to help lines being closed.
Defra question not BPEX – I will take that up.
24. There is no published fax no. for the service.
the fax has been added delayed due to internal clarification
Eh??? Ok so someone forgot to order teh fax line it is my take!
25. The movement detail in archive needs to show the CPH numbers, otherwise a user reconciling the system to their movement book has to open every HS/MD to get the CPH.
We will check on that
26. When doing a farm to farm movement for pigs under a year pigs can move on a temporary mark and there is a question about moving on a temporary mark. However despite answering yes to this, the movement form still says that the pig ID is the slap mark which is the first question and cannot be left blank. This is not correct at worst it should say temporary mark, but better should specify the type of mark (see 27 below).
You have the option to enter free text for your temp mark in the question about the temp amrk and then in ‘enter reference’ this is also in the help text. This will then appear on the haulier summary sheet.
I need to validate this, but in essence this is not what I saw happen - one to re-test
27. The idea behind temporary marks is that in the now highly unlikely ( but still technically possible) event that multiple loads of pigs are being carried, the sets of pigs can be reconciled against the paperwork, with the temporary mark only being required under law to last the journey . For instance a haulier could carry 6 weaners with a blue spot on shoulder from holding a and 8 with red stripe down back from holding b, delivering say both to holding c. There would be two haulier documents, and since the whole idea of a temporary mark is to be able to reconcile pigs in a lorry against the paperwork, the temporary mark needs to be specified in the paperwork as a freeform text entry eg “blue spot on shoulder”. Otherwise temporary marks are entirely pointless.
This relates to movements from a collection centre and they have the option to enter several her marks and a temp mark as a free text option.
Need to validate
28. The Disease Control Order 2003 (under which the general movement licence is issued as stated at the top of the HS/MD) has article 15 which essentially specifies paper forms and retention periods of 6 months are required. Under primo 2007 the additional requirements did not contract this regulation, but under PRIMO 2011 there are contradictions between the two regulations. Can this be explained, or should amendment s to one or other regulation be made. Otherwise by complying with PRIMO 2011, I am breaking DCO 2003?
A regulation query for Defra
29. Given that the vast majority of holdings will only have one slap mark, cannot a check for this against a holding be made, and if only one, pre-populate this field. Otherwise the majority of users will need to click a single choice every time.
there are a large number of holdings that have multiple herd marks
But that wouldn't stop a decent coder not giving users a choice of one wher only one choice exists
So overall some good progress, but i will need to push further to try and get better guides and clearer guidance.
Given that we are getting this whether we like it or not, anyone finding other annotances or errors, plesae let me know, and happy to push these whilst we have a chance before April.
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Got a fax number going to fax it through today, but half the info was missing when we picked the sheet up from market, had to fill it in ourselves what a joke.
If market can't get it right how are we supposed too
Anyway pig is nice, a bit plain but we will feed her up
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Oaklands you deserve a medal for all your efforts and that marathon typing session :trophy: Still a lot of fudging going and only some errors grudgingly admitted to but some progress at least.
Fax number is now on BPEX AML site 02476692405 hope it not premium!!
I think this is going to rage on for some time until they get it right, i am dreading next April and the showing season beyond bet they haven't thought about a box to put your isolation unit number in along with your CPH at present i put my iso number in with big stars round it under the CPh box but you won't be able to do that on a computer.
Mandy :pig:
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Ha Ha tried the fax number and it didn't work, told me the number was not recognised!! so rang the tel no and the lady said she wanted to know where the pig was bought and did it arrive in good condition and was i happy with it! i bought a pig not a bed!! :o
She wanted the truck reg no and that was that
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suspected there was a didgit missing from it when i looked it up, can they get nothing right? It would seem so.
Back to the drawing board i guess.
mandy :pig:
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suspected there was a didgit missing from it when i looked it up, can they get nothing right? It would seem so.
Back to the drawing board i guess.
mandy :pig:
No you were right the fax was the same as the one they gave me, so not your fault
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Just a thought but the govt knows where every cow, sheep, pig & goat is but they don't know where every immigrant, paedophile & sex offenders is located???? ::) ::) Maybe they should all be EID'd!! ;D
heard on the news last night the immigration dept has lost 120,000 asylum seekers off the radar, told yer they shoulda bin tagged!!! Hope they had an AML for them!! ;D
mandy :pig: :pig:
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I have been reading this thread, thinking surely it can't be that bad!
I have waited to try the system, until I have a recipent to the movement who not only has registered on the site already himself but completed a farm to abattoir movement already, so he must exist on the system right? Wrong have now spent and hour trying various combinations of information to find him.
I am now hugely irritated as I have been unable to set up a movement for tomorrow for 7 weaners as the website is insisting he doesn't exist
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so it is worse than bad just do it on paper then on monday get ripped into them :farmer:
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We did our first one today. First of all it involved installing the printer onto the laptop because PC not currently working ::). Got logged onto the site and started inputting all the info which I found really slow, I'm a lot quicker at writing than typing. We had 16 pigs to go, I put all their eartag numbers on the form, on the printout it had missed some off. It had also put in the wrong phone number, on 2 separate parts the numbers were different, right numbers but wrong order. I know I definately put it in right because I checked then double checked.
These pigs were just going to market so not as important for individual ear numbers but what happens if it's wrong for a show ???. After first experience I'm not impressed at all, found it really slow and when it comes out wrong at the end of it then what good is it ::). Not looking forward to shows next year if we have to mess about with this the night before we go.
I think a lot of things need ironing out before April but for that to work the people in the offices need to listen to us about issues we have with this new farce they've come up >:(.
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They should never have done a joint computer system with the Border Agency....
They'll have to turn it off.
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ah if they are doing a joint sharing of the computer will that mean slap marking of imigrants andresturants having to have isolation facilitys all backed up with movement books ;D :farmer: ;D
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Read about these movements in practical pigs and the article was quite helpful, but the heading made me wonder to pee my pants laughing or choke on the cuppa tea i was having whilst reading!!
http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/Image0082.jpg (http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb220/fowgillfarm/Image0082.jpg)
Will have to twist abit to read it, but given the current argy bargy with the BPA i think they could be done by TS for such a statement!! ;D
mandy :pig:
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;D ;D ;D ;D
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Mandy you have a valid point but will they listen to the small scale pig farmer and what is there definition of small scale did you get the agenda for the BPA agm with you mag ;) looks like tea and scones and sod all else :farmer:
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we did are first one this week entered OK
printing of 3 times to get it to print right
no in top corner changed some you couldn't understand looked like welsh
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Mandy you have a valid point but will they listen to the small scale pig farmer and what is there definition of small scale did you get the agenda for the BPA agm with you mag ;) looks like tea and scones and sod all else :farmer:
Robert they probably would ignore one smallholder but if there were enough of them complaining they'd have to do something. The BPA is there to look after smaller breeders the NPA & BPEX look after the commercial boys and the BPA shouldn't be chasing glory with them it should be looking out for us and helping us promote our breeds and pur produce, which by the look of the accounts they do next to nothing for us. Seems they had a nice time in China helping the big boys win £45million of business but that doesn't help the likes of you and me! They put nothing in funding to help promote breeds in 2010.
Got the AGM blurb in with a snotty missive about double tagging pigs ig thats your preferred method of ID, another thing i have to take them to task on is the fact that only tatooed or notched pigs can be shown at BPA shows, This is discrimination against breeders who choose not to treat their pigs batrbarically by tattooing or notching. If they allow tagging as id then they should be allowed to be shown as well and in a court of law i think they'd be found against for discrimantion. We pay our dues just like the rest. Yes the AGM does sound like the usual drivel, thought the breeders meeting afterwards migth be lively!
Mandy :pig:
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So, I have a pending move for my weaners.
I did not enjoy the process...
My feedback:
- I had to fool the system (by registering a slapmark of 'Yellow spot rump') into accepting a move without a slapmark and with a description of the temporary mark
- There is a lot of muddle around Site name, Business name and owner, Keeper, Driver, etc. I couldn't find any combination that resulted in the data on the form being factual so I gave up, answered the given questions to the best of my ability and left the form as it came out. (For instance, BH is the Business Owner; it's his farm, but I am the owner and keeper of the pigs. He'll drive when we deliver them. Business Owner appears as Owner of pigs; the name you registered in the first place (for which I had used the farm name) appears as Keeper and as Driver.) I expect I will make a better job of this next time...
- The time I entered in 'estimated duration of journey' lost its first two characters on printing. So it just says "Intended journey duration: hours" !
- On printing, the answers come out in really tiny font, much smaller than they need to be. 50-something old eyes can barely read this font in normal lighting and with normal reading glasses on.
Apart from the above, it wasn't too difficult to use the system. So far.
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for the Scottish pig keepers on this forum there is going to be an explanation of the rules posted on here from the Scot eid livestock traceability all the questions that oaklands has asked appear not be be relevant to Scotland
when the new system was being implemented Scotland approached England to copy there system yes that's fine that will be £26000 per year for you to use our template (or what ever it is called) the canny Scots said no we will set one up ourselves and they did for less than a grand i had asked of oaklands why the difference with shutdown period bringing sheep/cattle and goats( 6 days for England and 13 days for Scotland ) the gentleman from Scot eid has answered this that Scotland can contain a disease outbreak with a 13 day period while England is at a disadvantage with only a 6 day period
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Robert,
Very interesting !
The Scots are only collecting the PRIMO info, which is actually the key stuff you need, none of the Welfare of Animals stuff that is the transporter's responsibility, so the system is simple. The E&W version is much more complicated, and has steps in it that make it in my view more prone to error, adn much harder to work.
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so when is scotland's pig movement going electronic?
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now :farmer:
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[/quote]
Got the AGM blurb in with a snotty missive about double tagging pigs ig thats your preferred method of ID, another thing i have to take them to task on is the fact that only tatooed or notched pigs can be shown at BPA shows, This is discrimination against breeders who choose not to treat their pigs batrbarically by tattooing or notching. If they allow tagging as id then they should be allowed to be shown as well and in a court of law i think they'd be found against for discrimantion. We pay our dues just like the rest. Yes the AGM does sound like the usual drivel, thought the breeders meeting afterwards migth be lively!
Mandy :pig:
[/quote]
quick question why do you think tatooing is barbaric ? its quick its easy and the pig is ID'ed for life unlike a tag that can be swapped at will torn out and lost etc.etc.
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went to use the site to day no records
all information gone asking for me to input all information again
so much for you only after put it in once
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JEP,
Can you clarify, was this a future move you had saved, and the system has lost?
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They say their system needed some updates (I bet it did! Hope some of them are oaklands' suggestions) and will be down all weekend.
I thought I'd posted about it, they had a note on the site when I set up my move for next week, but looking back I can see I must've failed to press the Post button. Sorry. :-[
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we sent pig to abattoir just waiting for report back
no details found at all as if i hadn't us site asking for all details again
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quick question why do you think tatooing is barbaric ? its quick its easy and the pig is ID'ed for life unlike a tag that can be swapped at will torn out and lost etc.etc.
The sound of the tatoo pliers crunching the ear turns my stomach, they are not lifelong; i have recently had to apply to have two gilts re-tatooed as they were no longer readable and i have a seven year old boar who is so hairy his tattoo can no longer be found let alone read. It is a messy, stressful process whereas as putting a couple of tags in is akin to ear piercing, short, sharp and if done while they're eating they generally don't even notice, there is little if any blood.
Hope this explains
Mandy :pig:
ps signed up for electronic AML on Saturday have heard nothing back not even a confirmation e-mail!
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Mandy when you are there at the agm have a word with bill howes on tattooing his is readable very readable you can shine a light at the back of the ear and it should show that is what we used to do with cattle they were all tattooed i loved it when the inspectors used to pull us up with not having tags that rebel bit i suppose :D :farmer:
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So, I have a pending move for my weaners.
I did not enjoy the process...
My feedback:
- I had to fool the system (by registering a slapmark of 'Yellow spot rump') into accepting a move without a slapmark and with a description of the temporary mark
- There is a lot of muddle around Site name, Business name and owner, Keeper, Driver, etc. I couldn't find any combination that resulted in the data on the form being factual so I gave up, answered the given questions to the best of my ability and left the form as it came out. (For instance, BH is the Business Owner; it's his farm, but I am the owner and keeper of the pigs. He'll drive when we deliver them. Business Owner appears as Owner of pigs; the name you registered in the first place (for which I had used the farm name) appears as Keeper and as Driver.) I expect I will make a better job of this next time...
- The time I entered in 'estimated duration of journey' lost its first two characters on printing. So it just says "Intended journey duration: hours" !
- On printing, the answers come out in really tiny font, much smaller than they need to be. 50-something old eyes can barely read this font in normal lighting and with normal reading glasses on.
Apart from the above, it wasn't too difficult to use the system. So far.
Well, we did the move today.
- it was very unclear what to advise the recipient to do; I hope he does it ok!
- I figured I'd better get his signature to say he'd received the pigs in good condition; eventually found a thingy that looked like where I'd get him to sign and got that and tore it off. No idea really if that was right. (And I had looked up on Defra's site this morning what I was going to have to do today... Followed links around like someone in a maze... Couldn't really find anything useful at all.)
- have now got back home and tried to confirm the move from my end. Very unclear how to do this. I had to click on a link to the destination farm, which I had registered, so now I am not sure if they have that holding under me... And then I had to 'give feedback' when I was expecting to 'Confirm your movement'. Where do they find these people? ::)
[li]So I felt unsure I'd done it right and tried to look at the movement to check - it says I have 0 Sent 0 Pending 0 0 0 - where has it gone? ???
[/li][/list]
Not happy. My gruntle has been excised. >:(
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After reading all these depressing posts about the problems everyone is having, I submitted a movement for tomorrow (2 pigs farm to slaughter) and the whole thing went through in minutes, without any hiccups - to my amazement. But just in case something goes wrong and they don't send all the details through to the abbatoir, I will take a paper AML2 and FCI form with me as well. Tamsaddle
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Tamsaddle - As you have submited on-line, you'd do better to print & take a spare copy of the elctronic form, as that'll give the abarttoir the reference as well as the aml and FCI info. Otherwise they might process both the elctronic and your aml2, which will confuse the system !
Abattoir moves have been there for some time, and we use them, they are good. Live to live for smallholders has more problems in practical terms, both for those that don't have computers, and those that don't have computers where their pigs are, both will cause issues or as BPEX puts it "require changes in working practices" ie they'll be worse off. A few simple changes would rectify this and produce a system for everyone's benefit with no increased risk, but as legislation has been passed, this will not happen. No-one prepared to change stuff as it involves admitting the current process could have been better, which of course involves someone holding their hand up - so that's not going to happen!
However BPEX are generally responsive to some suggestions for improvements, but still unfortuinately being guided by Defra rather than BPEX being the independant organisation that "represents pig levy payers in England" as they bill themselves.
I am pressing for further improvements in accuracy of info, amount of guidance, and process, so that the site is clearer and easier to use, and has better reminder prompts, to ensure it is as workable solution as we can get within the current legislation,but it is BPEX and Local authorites that will suffer if they don't improve clarity, communication and process. It is also us that wuill suffer if there is another outbreak, and there are lots of uncancelled and pending moves sitting in the BPEX system without it being clear if they happened or not. Dangerous contacts will be missed that should have been in the AMLS system, not languishing in the BPEX one. It could be so much better.
Rant over !
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Hi all
Have used eAML2 three times now, for farm to slaughter movements. First time was a disaster, last two times have gone through without a hitch. I know where Oaklands is coming from, as the cause of the problems we experienced first time were unresolved. Here's the story of our first time...............
We booked 3 pigs in for slaughter. Completed the movement screeen on eAML2 and pressed the submit button - got taken through to the log in screen rather than the hauliers page. Had a look at pending movements and there was nothing there. Phoned the helpline (on my mobile - premium rates!) and they confirmed that no movement had been submitted (suggested I had been "timed out" of the system for taking too long to input everything). So, re-submitted the whole movement, got the haulier page printed out fine and received the confimation e-mail that the movement would be processed overnight.
Took 3 pigs to slaughter (thankfully with back-up paper AML and FCI ). Got to the abbatoir to be told that nothing had come through, so used paper system instead.
Got back to land and checked eAML2 website - one movement shown as pending (though journey was supposed to have started at 06:15 that morning) so couldn't confirm movement. Phoned helpline, who told me there was TWO movements awaiting feedback!. No, I said - explained the whole issue with being kicked out to log in screen and having to re-submit movement. OK, says the lady on the helpline, then you need to provide feedback for one of the movements. I explained no feedback option available - one movement shown as pending. No, she siad, it will definately be there, in red text on your screen. No, I said, nothing there. She went off to investigate and after a few minutes came back to say she had no idea what had gone wrong as everything I had submitted was correctDidn't know why I didn't have the feedback required message so would cancel everything on eAML2 system (as the paper movement forms would go through to record the movement).
As I said, the following two movements we have done (farm to abbatoir again) have gone through without a hitch, but it does make you wonder what will happen if this particular problem recurs once the paper system is withdrawn. The helpline opens after we need to get our pigs to the abbatoir (they need to be booked in by 7:45am at the latest) so could have a problem with the abbatoir refusing to take pigs because thay haven't had the notification e-mail? There is no guidance that I can see on the eAML2 website that covers such a scenario. Needless to say, our abbatoir insist on paper back up copies, as they have had numerous problems with eAML2 with other customers.
Thank you Oaklands for trying to get some clarity on the many grey areas that surround this process. I for one am following this thread with great interest and appreciate yor efforts
Dee
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Is everyone ok with this concept that you confirm a move by 'Submitting feedback'?
To me, feedback is what you give a supplier when they want to know how their product or service has performed.
I couldn't find anywhere to register that my movement had occurred (I was looking for 'Confirm Pending Movement', or, 'Update Pending Movement', or some such.) Eventually I pressed the only thing I could find and discovered that confirming a move is, in fact, giving feedback.
Not intuitive, to say the least. Not to me, anyway.
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i had to do an exam on a computer and a lot of the wording is confusing because it
is written by Americans one continue meant finish
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I have pigs to go to the abbattoir on Monday am i too late to do the eaml today?
Think i'll just send them on paper as always, why can't they get anything working properly before they allow it out for the wider use. >:(
Mandy :pig:
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Mandy
Provided you have registered, you can do abattoir on-line anytime up to midnight Sunday. As suggested to Tamsaddle take a copy of the print-out as transporter and an extra one as a copy for the abattoir, as many (but not all) abattoirs like this. You can of course do this now, and the risks of leaving it to sunday night are
- BPEX system crashing over the weekend - risk very small now they are on dual servers
- Your internet link failing
- Your PC failing
- If your printer fails, you can write the details on a pro-forma - as long as you have printed a proforma - you should have a few of these in stock, and definitely have some after April - you never know when the ink runs out at the wrong time
If you are phoning it in, you can do this tomorrow, providing you have a fax machine, otherwise they will need to post and you wait arrival of the form, so you are too late
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Can you believe it well yes you probably can. Had the Animal Health people out to do a routine inspection of our animal movements paperwork etc and asked him about the eAML2 and he said " oh don't know anything about that, havent heard about it" He honestly didnt seem to know what we were talking about. :pig:
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Well just done first movement to slaughter using it, okish but needs so much info several times.
Said my abbattoir isn't geared up for EAML yet so take 2 copies, OH is going so think he might have fun on the paperwork side coz liklihoood is they've never seen one. Will report back on monday.
Mandy :pig:
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I've used the ScotEid system a couple of times now and find it good :thumbsup:
As you type in the CPH number it brings up the name & address details, very straight forward to use and it emails you the movement form for printing/saving.
No complaints about it..............so far ;)
Sorry, doesn't help you guys down south out - hope yours gets all the wrinkles ironed out soon :wave:
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HH,
Think my wrinkles are here to stay - but as I'm a man I simply fool myself that it makes me look distinguished !
Am pleased that the Scottish system is easy to use - and a shame that the E&W one could so easily have been the same. Hey ho !
Miss Piggy - given the amount of cut backs that will soon hit TS, highly likely that you'll soon be getting the guy who normally does checking xmas teddy bears for loose eyes inspecting you, so even less knowldege in future is likely.
Mandy - yes let us know how it goes !!
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Been on this morning to confirm move (ie give feedback) and the bloody thing won't let me, theres no move in the archive or pending??? confused is that because the office staff don't start until 9 this morning???
Will try later.
mandy :pig:
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wev used scoteid for first time, with success! yippee!
:wave: :wave: :wave:
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Just been on the eid web site, it seems ok to me, i am no techi wizard and managed to see my movement details without stress, hopefully it will continue to be without problems ;D ;D
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I'm just waiting to hear back from BPA about their side of the eaml.
I tried to input the details of the pigs going to the abattoir tomorrow. Their ID's are there, but the date of births are wrong....they are correct on the BPA website.
I've decided to just do the eAML side of things there and input the BPA side and print off the meat certificates separately.
Hopefully I'll hear back from BPA soon.
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wev used scoteid for first time, with success! yippee!
:wave: :wave: :wave:
PP,
Is their a simple guide that talks this process thorugh on a scottish website? If so can you point me at it?
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Been on this morning to confirm move (ie give feedback) and the bloody thing won't let me, theres no move in the archive or pending??? confused is that because the office staff don't start until 9 this morning???
Will try later.
mandy :pig:
Mandy,
Please let me know the outcome and BPEX explanation of this - this is not the first I have heard of this, and if entries are disappearing with low usage, this is a worry when the full system kicks in.
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Hi Robin
Just checked my e-mail and i have feedback confirmation from my abbattoir so went on eaml and sure enuff there it was in my completed movements folder, there is another folder for finished movements but whats the difference, i still haven't had the chance to complete from my end but looks like regardless its gone thro. most peculiar, will try and ring tomorrow for explanation but not holding my breath as suspect they will say well it worked didn't it!
mandy :pig:
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Mandy,
Thanks
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I don't have a problem with feedback I do it on the mobile while at the abattoir and they text back almost immediately.
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I don't have a problem with feedback I do it on the mobile while at the abattoir and they text back almost immediately.
Yeah... I decided I didn't need the government knowing my mobile number... far too Big Brother (in a 1984 way) for me.
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is that not the whole point of e aml or are you just disregarding the information that has to be given
when they get it sorted the place of birth of the pig
holding number and all the tag numbers
haulier and if you have the relevent documentation
time you leave and time you arrive speeding charges you declared the times long journeys time driving etc
reg details just to check if you are rta compliant
i am sure i have missed something have fun filling these forms in they are legal :farmer:
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Really Sally, do you not think that if they wanted your number they couldn't contact numerous organisations who would sell it to them.
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speeding charges you declared the times
am i not the first to get a speeding ticket to stay under 8 hrs?? lol ;D ;) ;)
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Really Sally, do you not think that if they wanted your number they couldn't contact numerous organisations who would sell it to them.
Yes I do not think that.
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Sally , did you honestly think they didn't already have your number? GCHQ routinely monitor every call you make from any transmitable device. ....makes you feel good all over don't it.
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oh i do hope they listen in to the calls made to me from ethnic call centers and the replies given they would go viral maybe not that would give the game away that we are being monitored >:(
anyway with the e aml we are making a stick to beat ourselves with :farmer:
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GCHQ routinely monitor every call you make from any transmitable device.
Nah, they're too busy listening to the French. And Royalty.
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I thought that because of the cuts GCHQ had outsourced telecommunications monitoring to Rupert & James Murdoch.
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I thought that because of the cuts GCHQ had outsourced telecommunications monitoring to Rupert & James Murdoch.
;D