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Author Topic: eAML2  (Read 62184 times)

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #60 on: October 06, 2011, 06:34:59 pm »
HH,

Great to hear, i am trying to write up the English/Welsh new rules, but still have numerous Q's os with BPEX who are running the system.  That their replies are taking a while does lead one to wonder how well thougth through the processes are.

Hopefully Scorland will have a more pracmatic version, but who knows !
www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

HappyHippy

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #61 on: October 06, 2011, 07:48:06 pm »
Pffft  ::) Robin, Scotland's will be just as much of a nightmare to decipher as yours, I'm sure  ::)  ;)
But I'm not even starting to it til I've got an AHO who's familiar enough with it to answer the questions I'm going to have  :o  :D But it'll be just like the NHS optical prescription stuff - as soon as you get used to the system and iron out all the flaws, they'll go and change it again  ::)
Legislation - don't ya just love it !  :P
Karen  :wave:

Edit: Just to really make you feel great ::) my AHO suggested that they (the government) are toying with the idea of EID tags for pigs and bringing them in line with the sheep and cattle systems - how much fun and expense is that going to be for all us 'little guys'  ???
« Last Edit: October 06, 2011, 07:50:23 pm by HappyHippy »

tizaala

  • Joined Mar 2011
  • Dolau, Llandrindod Wells,Powys
Re: eAML2
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2011, 06:50:40 am »
 I had to ring animal health last Friday to get a flock number for the sheep and their letter had not arrived by Thursday so I rang again , and while I had them on the phone I asked about the pig situation and Welsh farmers without mobile signals and no computers, they put me onto a " spokes person "  and I quote " dunno mate, It's causing major chaos, nobody has a clue how we are going to get it sorted by next year , It hasn't been thought through propperly, sodding Brussels." ..........Interesting !

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #63 on: October 11, 2011, 11:15:09 am »
Think this new directive is also going to mean theres a lot more illegal moves, had a chap ring me up the other day about bringing a sow in for service, when i mentioned about an AML coming with her he said whats the point who the hell in Stoneleigh will care whether we've moved a pig or not! i told him that if he wanted to bring her to me he did so with paperwork or needn't bother coming!
How the heck are they going to police movements now, wil investigations still got thro' TS?
Mandy  ??? :pig:

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #64 on: October 11, 2011, 01:21:27 pm »
Think this new directive is also going to mean theres a lot more illegal moves, had a chap ring me up the other day about bringing a sow in for service, when i mentioned about an AML coming with her he said whats the point who the hell in Stoneleigh will care whether we've moved a pig or not! i told him that if he wanted to bring her to me he did so with paperwork or needn't bother coming!
How the heck are they going to police movements now, wil investigations still got thro' TS?
Mandy  ??? :pig:

Sadly I think the at least two days notice for thiose without computers will simply lead to more unreported moves, as the old boys (and girls) fail to grapple with this stuff. 

I did my first e-aml from here on Sunday - System printed a very snotty letter about an "attempted" pig movement and not moving pigs without a herd no. and a £5,000 fine for me to give to my new pig keeping customer, who of course legally has 30 days to get their herdmark. Not a good introduction to Animal Health for someone new to pigs.  Letter comes from a "customer contact" team, but the letter has no contact details so you can't respond to them !

Hey ho!
www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #65 on: October 11, 2011, 02:01:48 pm »
if pigs are moved illegally  either because they cant be bothered with the rules or they don't have a computer
what are they going to do with them after they get them    more illegal moves or will home kills flourish
maybe that is the whole point of the introduction of these rules to fine and put on the gallows all those that do not comply or cant comply      or is there more to this      time is going to tell :farmer:

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #66 on: October 11, 2011, 07:00:16 pm »
Robert,

Hessitate to say this, but if buyer and seller both breed, then any trace of move can easily be undone in not born one end, and additional birth at the other.   

Additionally moves dates could easily be fudged into the future eg move on Saturday will be phoned in on Monday to get paperwork for a mythical move the following Thurdsay.  An outbreak on Tuesday would have no record of the move, and no-one likely to hold hands up, hense a contact/move would be lost that would have been reported otherwise.

I hope I am wrong !
www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #67 on: October 11, 2011, 07:20:09 pm »
i was thinking more of the people buying for fattining  never though of fudging the paperwork like you described
just have to wait and see how it all pans out
i was also under the impression the old system worked all right o well silly me     onwards and upwards
bigger fans bigger piles of crap and soft touch switches :farmer:

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #68 on: October 12, 2011, 12:34:52 pm »
Contacted BPEX today about pig movements and suggested they have a look at this forum and our comments, a chap called Andrew Knowles (head of BPEX communications) says he will come on the forum and answer our questions so hopefully a result.
Mandy  :pig:

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #69 on: October 12, 2011, 02:00:13 pm »
Good news,

I have several Q's os with BPEX at the moment an many more that i have not yet asked, so knowing what is happening would be good.

The site certainly needs updating (still says on the homepage they are sending out next week the letter which we all got in August)

The guides only cover registration - guides needed for farm to farm to farm, farm to market (and farm to show in due course), and a decent one for farm to slaughter - so that people can know ahead of doing it what info is needed, and covering both sender and receiver being on computer, sender on PC -  receiver not, sender not on PC but receiver is, moves between E&W and Scotland (who still have paper at the mo), and import/export moves.

Additionally you are required to have a herdmark before you register, but the Defra guide to keeping pigs says to get this after you have got pigs, so if you follow the defra guide you get a very snotty letter from AHVLA saying that you are liable to a £5,000 fine. All AH's will now need to issue herdmarks before people get, so they can register with e-aml. And can someone stop this really awful letter being sent - it will just lead to less not more compliance, and makes AH look like a load of...

The system all over the place says "slapmark" which is only used for moves to slaughter (and then it is only one option), the correct term should be herdmark.  Not being pedantic, many new pig keepers won't know what a slapmark is, or think they must slap a live to live move.

If you do a farm to farm e-aml, and know the registration no. of the haulier, and complete this, you STILL have to input it again to confirm move, there needs to be a check to say if you have already done it, and not to  require it being re-input.  Systems should not require the same data twice.

Any future communications should not repeat the "takes no longer than one minute" - this is simply not correct !  If receiver if not registered, it takes longer than a minute before you even start the form, and the form takes longer than one minute in nay case.   You don't win friends by stretching the truth.

There should be an option to make the haulier the same as either the sender or receiver and as a result populate the address field - most smallholder moves are done by one or the other, and to have to type this is again leads to wasted time, and chance of error.

How will force majeaure be dealt with for those without PC's - eg I arrive on land and it is flooded, need to move pigs urgently, but have to give two days notice to BPEX and await a form before I can move.

Are BPEX sending out email forms to non-pc users first class?

Why are pigs with temporary marks required to complete "holding of birth" - I can see nothing in the legislation that requires this, and I may not know this in any case.

There seems to be no option for having one form with different types of pigs, so if I am taking 3 finishers and a cull sow to the abattoir or selling live do i have to fill in two forms? (and again i see nothing in law requiring the type of pigs being moved, so why is this being gathered?)

Has Wales yet passed the legislation that e-aml requires - i cannot trace this legislation.

Overall major question, why do those without computers now have to give at least two working days notice of a move, and await forms, when someone with a pc but not working printer, can use a pro-forma and handwrite the info that they have typed in.  At least then those moving pigs at the weekend would only need to decide this on Friday at 4.45pm phone the details through and then do a hand pro-forma, not have to decide Wednesday or otherwise have to break the law.

That's my list so far.

Look forward to the answers.

PS and while I think of it, presume BPEX covers Scotland (as part of Britain!), so when will the new Scottish movement rules (and system?) come in requiring notification on the day, and how will it work?






« Last Edit: October 12, 2011, 06:57:45 pm by oaklandspigs »
www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: eAML2
« Reply #70 on: October 12, 2011, 02:26:46 pm »
I'm glad we've got you guys, oaklands & Mandy (Fowgill) 
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

andrew knowles

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: eAML2
« Reply #71 on: October 14, 2011, 11:55:21 am »
Dear Mandy and other participants on this forum
 
Firstly thank you for all the feedback on this forum which is a site I wasn't previously aware of.  Can I also thank oaklands pigs for the valuable feedback and observations as BPEX doesn't pretend to have a monopoly on wisdom and knowledge on the subject of pig movements and eAML2.

Forgive me for not responding to every post on this forum but hopefully I can cover off some of the main point that are being raised.

The eAML2 project is a Defra project and BPEX is contracted by Defra to deliver the solution of a robust electronic pig movement service.

The reasons for introducing the new eAML2 system
These are numerous but include the following:

Current paper AML2 system can take up to approximately 3 weeks for movements to be entered on to the government data base which is unsatisfactory especially in the case of a major disease outbreak resulting in long standstill periods for pig keepers, mounting welfare issues etc

Current paper system has no way of identifying errors in data, missing data and checking standstill periods are correctly enforced etc

Currently Defra, Animal Health, RPA etc do not have a robust database of all the pig keepers in the country, it only collects details on new keepers but cannot track changes in details or remove premises which no longer keep pigs.  hence the reason for the eAML2 letter going out to people no longer in pigs and people being asked to confirm details where the current database is out of date.

The benefits of eAML2
As an individual pig keeper
Reduction in duplicate paperwork especially on moves to slaughter where at present you have to complete an AML2 and an FCI form both requesting the same information in slightly different formats

Its quick and easy to do (once you have completed the initial registration of all your details)

You get your Meat Inspection reports back by e-mail automatically which enables pig keepers to understand and identify emerging health and welfare issues at an early stage

As a sector
We all get the benefit of a much more accurate and constantly updated herd register of all premises where pigs are being legally kept.  I am sure I don't need to spell out how important this if for disease control reason and maximising pig health and welfare.

We free up trading standards time etc so they can more effectively devote time to identifying and following up situations where pigs are being kept at unregistered premises etc which again I am sure everybody understands the importance of.

By having an accurate database of pig keepers we can more effective communicate and so avoiding in future the frustrations some people on this site have expressed about poor communication.

We all have a common and correct understanding of the law regarding pig identification and movement (and it is clear from some of the comments on this forum regarding slap marks and herd marks and temporary paint marks that there is a need for this).

Why pre-notification of pig movements?
 
By having pre notification of movements everybody involved in a pig movement has an awareness of what is going on and we capture the pig movement information in a matter of days not weeks as at present. 

Throughout developing the eAML2 system we have sat down with pig farmers and keepers, markets, show organisers, abattoirs, hauliers, marketing organisations  etc and used their knowledge and experience to guide the processes we have followed.  Yes pre notification is a move away from the current system, but everybody said that it was not a big issue and that the vast majority of pig movements do have some element of pre notification at present anyway (you will all no doubt be aware that you don't have to pre notify a move to a market for eAML2).

What if I don't have a computer?

If you don't have access to a computer or wish not to use a computer for your pig movements that is personal decision and you have the option to use the MLCSL eAML2 service.  It doesn't mean a 2 working day pre notification as some have stated on this forum, you can fax or phone the intended movement details through to them and they will fax you back a haulier summary, you just have to allow sufficient time for that process to be completed. Of course if you have the haulier summary posted back to you you will need to allow sufficient time and therefore need to call in a few days in advance  .

And the MLCSL service is 9-5 Monday to Friday partly to save tax payers money (as it is funded by Defra not the BPEX levy) and partly because everybody from industry agreed that actually that was sufficient to cover the overwhelming majority of calls.  Yes there will always be the occasional query on a Sunday morning which it would be great to respond to immediately but in reality it is imposable to justify manning a helpline through Saturday and Sunday on the off chance of a call.
 
Has eAMl2 been thoroughly thought through?
 
To address another concern that eAML2 hasn't been thought through in detail, I can assure you it has been developed in considerable detail and has been operating for farm to slaughter movements for well over 18 months in a large national pilot and well over 6 months for farm to farm movements.  At present well over 45% of pig movements are taking place via the eAML2 service. it’s well over a quarter of all F-S moves

The reason for a delay in responding to specific e-mail queries is more a reflection of prioritising the work load of the eAML2 helpline to respond to calls seeking advice and guidance following the recent mailing to in excess of 30,000 pig keepers which as you would expect has caused a short term spike in demand on the helpline.

eAML2 is not capturing any new or different information that is currently required to be completed on existing AML2 or FCI forms.  Whether people have been correctly filling out the current forms is a different issue but not a matter for BPEX to comment on.

The eAML2 project has had to develop a common movement process which works for business of all sizes, from a keeper of a single pig through to large pig farms, for movements of every type including farm to farm, abattoir, shows, markets, vets, exports etc, and we have gone about this is a structure, methodical and detailed way.

What is happening in Scotland?

This is a Defra project (not a BPEX project) and the Defra project covers England and Wales.  Scotland have decided to develop their own independent electronic pig movement scheme but have given Defra assurances that it will interface with the eAMl2 system before the end of the eAML2 transitional period of 31 March 2012.

Why hasn't anybody told you about eAML2 before now?
 
There has been a constant stream of articles on eAMl2 over the past two years in the regional press, national trade press, pig press, internet, membership organisations etc.  We have sent out posters to markets, abattoirs, haulier and fliers to all pig keepers we have on our databases.  I spent three days in Wales last year running workshops on eAMl2, but in the absence of a database of all pig keepers in England and Wales we unfortunately cannot guarantee that the message gets sent through every letter box, or even gets read if it does make it to the right letter box so I thank this site for helping spread the word.

eAMl2 is a change from the old AML2 paper system and change isn't always well received by everybody (the introduction of AML2 wasn't exactly a popular move when it came into existence).  It will require all of us to think about how we do things and maybe in some circumstances mean we have to slightly modify how we do things.  However it will bring benefits to both individual pig keepers and the whole of the pig sector.  I and colleagues in BPEX will do our best to try and help make the change as easy and painless as possible and I know from past experience the pig sector will demonstrate why it is wisely regarded as the most progressive and forward thinking part.

Thank you once again for having the opportunity to contribute to this forum

Andrew Knowles, BPEX a division of Agriculture and Horticulture Development Board


Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #72 on: October 14, 2011, 12:35:39 pm »
Thank you Andrew for your comprehensive reply which reads somewhat toeing the party line/teaching to suck eggs! and doesn't directly answer any our particular questions eg what happens if we advise a move and it doesn't happen? and some of the more pertinent questions asked by Oaklands. We all know the reason behind moving to the new sytem and whilst we have no problem with the sytem itself you will admit it does need some tweaking here and there as already pointed out above. You say that 45% of movements are done electronically but that it is only 25% of F-S movements so you've still got 75% to go! and i would suggest that the 25% are the commercial boys not smallholders like ourselves with only 2 or 3 sows. You say it will reduce paperwork but everyone i know who uses it still has to take a paper AMl with them just in case so we are duplicating work! And the office only being open 9 - 5, a lot of small keepers work in other jobs and do their paperwork at night or weekends. A lot of small keepers have not even heard of you or believe that you're only work for the commercial boys and the majority of us would relate or know more about/to the BPA (a cross we have to bear). I admit to binning stuff that come from BPEX becoz i don't believe it relates to me or my pigs. and i certainly don't consider myself to be part of any sector!, we don't do many market movements either so sorry we ain't noticed that one! You say its difficult answering all our questions but that mainly beause the people working on the helpline could be as well inputting data on beans or toilet rolls as pigs.
One size you will find does not fit all.
So i don't really see many answers in your reply, but you'd make a darn good politician!
Mandy  :pig:
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:50:13 pm by Fowgill Farm »

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #73 on: October 14, 2011, 03:24:30 pm »
or a drug salesman to the doctors ;) :farmer:

grumpsgarden

  • Joined Aug 2011
Re: eAML2
« Reply #74 on: October 14, 2011, 04:01:30 pm »
hi well im lost on this one and its the first ive heard of it must amit today was the first time ive actualy read this thread and im a pig keeper , also im a dunce with pc and also dyslisc so get family or friends to help with my forms it took me hours to raed and the had to get my oldest daughter to try and explain it to me , so does it meen when i take my pigs to slaughter i need to do a pc form , if so think i had better arrange some one to be here to help me with it , thats going to be fun as my faimly live over 5 hours away at least with the paper forms i just signed them and added my numbers then gave them to buyer to help me with or when i brought pigs the seller did the forms this could stop me keeping pigs as its taking me ages to understand the paper ones  :'(

 

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