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Author Topic: eAML2  (Read 47901 times)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: eAML2
« Reply #30 on: October 02, 2011, 01:47:44 am »
Waterhouse, I would need to be up all night telling you what is wrong with the existing implementation of EID for sheep, but I will tell you some of it.

Before I get onto that however, the thing which has riled me about the idea of implementing this pre-movement notification for sheep is that when sheep EID was introduced, one of the things we as farmers were promised was that there would be no need for us to buy readers or software as all marts and abattoirs would be recording centres, and we would not need to list individual ids if we were en route to a recording centre.  Clearly, if pre-movement notification is introduced then we will need to have readers and software on farm - yet another pointless expense.

In my previous life I was a project manager.  One of my key skills was making sure that whatever got implemented was what was needed, that everyone involved in the project or affected by it got what they needed and that if they had to accept disruption or costs as a result of it, they got something positive from it too to compensate them for that.  It incenses me that Defra continually implement schemes with badly-defined requirements, which are not met, which cause unnecessary disruption and cost and deliver no benefit to anyone, including not delivering the original project goals.

So you see I can't start from the premise "tagging is going to exist for traceability purposes because of the disease that shall not be joked about" because EID as implemented in sheep provides very little improvement in traceability over the previous non-EID method.

It was blindingly obvious to many farmers, myself included, that this would be the case, before the scheme became law.  I attended several meetings with Defra and each time they were told what the problems would be, and each time they were dismissive at best, rude and patronising at worst.

What it would seem is happening now is that Defra has now realised that the whole sheep EID scheme has failed to meet its single original requirement, despite having cost the industry millions and delivered no benefit whatsoever except perhaps to the companies who manufacture and/or sell the tags, taggers, readers and software.  To paper over this, it looks as though they are now going to break yet another of their commitments to farmers, and force us to spend more money implementing readers and software systems on the farm.

Having watched disbelievingly my local marts spend between them hundreds of thousands of pounds on EID readers (money which they can ill afford and in one case at least has resulted in planned improvements which would have delivered significant animal welfare benefits having to be shelved) which still break down at least once a week and which still fail to correctly list more than 97% of the tags running through them, I surely do feel and express a great deal of resistance to being forced into having on-farm readers and software, yes.

What will happen is farmers who currently buy and sell sheep will have to decide if they can afford the equipment and extra work entailed. 

Picture the scene.  It's 4am and you are collecting your lambs to go to the mart today.  You rear your own and bought-in store lambs, so it does require you to read and list all the eartags of all the sheep.  (If it was just your own homebred lambs you could get around the problem by tagging at the point of loading and using the - more expensive - numbered tags so that you know what numbers are in the lambs' ears without having to read anything.)  It will have to be electronically because (a) there are so many sheep it would be infeasible to do this manually and (b) many of the sheep have slaughter tags, on which only an electronic device can read the individual id.  Defra will insist on 100% accuracy - so you tell me what you will do when, having collected the 100 lambs and driven them past the reader, you find only 98 numbers read.  And remember that if they are slaughter tags, you cannot read them by eye.

The farmer in this picture will have had to spend money on equipment and handling facilities (the reader will need to be kept dry, so there'll have to be an undercover race for the lambs to be driven through and past the reader), quite likely will have to move the lambs from where they have been kept to this facility for tag reading before loading, will certainly have to start the whole operation quite a bit earlier to allow for the time it takes to get the readings and deal with any errors.

What will happen is quite a few farmers who currently buy in store lambs to fatten on their spare winter grass, who buy in ewe lambs to grow on and sell as gimmers, will decide it's not worth the hassle and will stop buying and selling sheep.  Most hill farmers rely on the store market for a significant portion of their income, as they do not have the type of ground on which all their lambs can be fattened.  So this will be another nail in the coffin of hill farming sheep.

Which makes it all the more surprising that you say that NSA are behind this.  So before spending any more time writing up what is wrong with the proposals which I haven't seen, I think I had better go and read up what the NSA and others are actually saying and Defra is actually proposing.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2011, 09:09:32 am »
ok, this is a pig topic, and thank god we don't have pig individual ID at the moment, but I'm with Sally.

It needs to be remembererd that it was just over 10 years ago that we had NO id required for sheep.  This previous ID sytem had been in place for around 40,000 years, and apart from the odd person hung by mistake or transported to Oz, it seemed to work very well.

You then follow a process post 2000 F&M that says we need to know who is moving animals where - perfectly reasonable, and if you intrduced a scheme where people had to notify when sheep had moved from one holding to another, 98% of the UK (which is very law conpliant couintry) would follow this. This is as much as you need to know - one or more animals have moved from Fred's farm to Jo's farm 3 days ago.  In the case of an outbreak of F&M, this would catch most of the movements, we already have standstills to slow the disease, with these two measures you would pretty well stop it in it's tracks.

But says civil service mentality 98% is not good enough, we need to be 100% sure. So we want to know how many sheep have moved.  But those pesky farmers will lie, so we need to have flock numbers on tags so we can count sheep and check that which farm they are from.  Damn those pesky farmers take tags out and replace them, we need individual ID to identify every sheep.  Damm there are so many of these sheep that the inspectors can't read numbers, we need electronic numbers so they can have readers.  Damn tags get lost, we need reams of records to tell us which have been replaced.  Of course the present system has no more benefits than the one introduced in 2000, as 98% of the population comply with the moves and standstills, and the 2% that don't can still easily chnage tags, change birth records etc.  So 98% of us have time and expense that creates no benefit.

Hey ho, rant over.

And no, Defra has not changed any policy, "slash and burn" of any imfected farm and contiguous ones still is the policy, so knowing which sheep have moved gets you nowhere, they still come any kill all of them.



 
www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

tizaala

  • Joined Mar 2011
  • Dolau, Llandrindod Wells,Powys
Re: eAML2
« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2011, 09:31:05 am »
I quote Oaklands.........."And no, Defra has not changed any policy, "slash and burn" of any imfected farm and contiguous ones still is the policy, so knowing which sheep have moved gets you nowhere, they still come any kill all of them."

Wrong............the policy is  ' slash and transport infected bodies along the motorways and trunk roads to spread the disease more efficiently '. Like they did so brilliently well last time.



 
« Last Edit: October 02, 2011, 09:32:55 am by tizaala »

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2011, 11:20:46 am »
tizaala you are wrong with the transport of infected animals  along motorways and trunk routes
yes the dead ones were transported from the farms to a central disposal point  BUT DID IT SPREAD THE FOOT ANY FURTHER           there was a part herd of heifers outwintered next the m74 the rest of the herd was culled these heifers were outwith the area that was infected and never contracted f/m even with the lorries going past them
at the last outbreak it was the speed or lack of speed of tracing all people and animals that had come in contact or perceived contact
the old system of keel marks worked at local level transport these sheep from Scotland to wales and you are buggered 
sheep are transshipped all over the UK  and that is the big problem for traceability
oaklands we do have individual id of pigs NOT ELECTRONIC as yet



Britain is now gripped with this culture of blame it has to start somewhere or someone      hendon on the wall was a suitable nail to hang the jacket for obvious reasons with the effect it has had on the farming industry  :farmer:
« Last Edit: October 03, 2011, 10:01:40 am by robert waddell »

waterhouse

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2011, 05:25:29 pm »
Sally, I think we're just at different ends of the same page.  I completely agree with you that DEFRA has made a pigs ear  :) of sheep tagging just as was done with the horse passport scheme - expensive and ineffective.  You'd have thought they'd just occasionally learn from their mistakes.

In summary DEFRA has taken a non-negotiable and inflexible EU requirement and bolluxed it up at the farmers' expense.  As you correctly point out the scheme as it stands doesn't achieve traceability: since 39% of tags ordered in 2011 are slaughter tags it ain't going to either. 

The NSA did a field test earlier this year of EID tags on sheep from all over the UK in a store finishing unit and got 99% success from race fitted readers, 98.5% from hand helds so the system can work.  My point is that the UK's record of getting u-turns out of Brussels has been poor of late and I can't see traceability going away as an issue now that the local abattoir has gone.

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #35 on: October 03, 2011, 09:43:23 am »
Just a thought but the govt knows where every cow, sheep, pig & goat is but they don't know where every immigrant, paedophile & sex offenders is located???? ::) ::)  Maybe they should all be EID'd!! ;D
Thought the govt was trying to get rid of red tape. I for one am totally confused i sold some weaners on Saturday, gave the new ownere the copy of the AML and told them to post the top copy to Stoneleigh, i will probably get bollocked for not letting them know prior but think its just salughter thet are elecetronic now and the rest will folow on in April as ever it has not been explained properley as ever the majority of our type of pig keeeprs barely know of the existence of BPEX and look to the BPA (God help us  ::)) to communciate the ins and outs of this complete b*****ks up of animal movements. Nobody seems to know whether its now the selling/sending party who informs about movement or it continues to be the receiving party.!!!
The next six months are going to be hell!!
Mandy  ??? :pig:

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #36 on: October 03, 2011, 10:18:18 am »
the government does not know where every animal is only if the paperwork is there for them and it has been sent away             the immigrants paedophiles and sex offenders do not send in there paperwork or inform them of there movements
just the same as we could  if we wanted to blend in as they do
what the stuff has the bpa to do with ensuring that pig movements comply with the latest idea on traceability why should your money and mine be spent from the bpa to channel every pig keeper on the correct method of administering a new system
you might as well say the nsa are responsible for ensuring every sheep farmer applies for single farm payment correctly
have you had information from defra on this                 we have not
how did you find out about the new system                 as us from word of mouth and this forum
 >:( :pig: :farmer:

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #37 on: October 03, 2011, 10:53:42 am »
Robert on the blurb from BPEX it says that the BPA will be one of the 'organs'  that will facilitate and 'help' pig keepers understand and use the working of the new system, thats why the BPA are involved and as i read in yackers weekly it is the NSA who are pushing for sheep movements to go electronic too. Theres  no hope for us luddites!!
Mandy  :pig:

Tamsaddle

  • Joined May 2011
  • Hampshire, near Portsmouth
Re: eAML2
« Reply #38 on: October 03, 2011, 11:06:36 am »
What a muddle.  I bought two pigs at Stoneleigh at the BPA sale on Saturday 1 October and was given a paper AML, and now have no idea who I should send the top copy to.   I think I will photocopy it and send one to TS and the other back straight back to Stoneleigh.   I can't possibly imagine how they could work an electronic AML system at a pig market as it is utterly chaotic paying at all - queued for 2 hours, mountains of forms and paper and lists piling up everywhere in their tiny office and 5 frazzled girls seemingly unable to process any transaction without endless conversations with the other 4, even though everyone in the queue had already filled in a paper AML with all the purchaser, transporter and pig ID details by the time they finally got to the window.     If it was electronic all that info for each and every buyer would have to be typed into the computer on the spot which would take even more hours to do.   Oh well hope they sort it out eventually.  Piggies are now back here and seem very contented.    Tamsaddle     

robert waddell

  • Guest
Re: eAML2
« Reply #39 on: October 03, 2011, 11:28:34 am »
tamsaddle         that was 5 girls sorting out a handful of pigs
the bpa has ONE lady (Dianne) and a temp who has no idea             what chance does the bpa have
what like was prices and what breed did you get :farmer:
is it just not great one organisation lamp it on another one to get an easy time  >:(

Berkshire Boy

  • Joined May 2011
  • Presteigne, Powys
Re: eAML2
« Reply #40 on: October 03, 2011, 11:54:01 am »
Robert, according to someone on the Berkshire web site the sale was a disaster,lots of pigs going unsold and some selling at very low prices even though they where good stock. Should have left it at Ross on Wye it was a good one day sale there.
Everyone makes mistakes as the Dalek said climbing off the dustbin.

Fowgill Farm

  • Joined Feb 2009
Re: eAML2
« Reply #41 on: October 03, 2011, 12:03:08 pm »
If you go to the BPA website there is a paragraph on electronic movements and it says they will be holding regional meetings over the next six months to introduce these new services, there will also be something in practical pig magazine. Would have been nice if had been in the last edition before tt all actually kicked off.
Mandy  :pig:

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: eAML2
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2011, 03:49:41 pm »
have you had information from defra on this                 we have not

I received in the post a hard copy of what's online here:
http://www.eaml2.org.uk/resources/000/494/738/eAML2_keeper_mailout_letter__final.pdf

It arrived the same day tizaala started this topic
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Tudful Tamworths

  • Joined Aug 2009
    • Liz's website
Re: eAML2
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2011, 04:24:26 pm »
Tamsaddle - you bought TWO pigs! When I spoke to you you said you were just taking the one. Well done on changing your mind and picking up a bargain. I'm sure they - and you - will be very happy!
Hope it all goes well.
Liz
www.lizshankland.com www.biggingerpigs.com
Author of the Haynes Pig Manual, Haynes Smallholding Manual, and the Haynes Sheep Manual. Three times winner of the Tamworth Champion of Champions. Teaching smallholding courses at Kate Humble's farm: www.humblebynature.com

oaklandspigs

  • Joined Nov 2009
  • East Sussex
    • OaklandsPigs
Re: eAML2
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2011, 06:53:12 pm »
For my sins I am trying to write up the new system for our book.

I have now received answers to my first set of queries, and yes if you do not have internet access, you will need to phone BPEX at least two days before the move, you must legally wait for paperwork to be sent to you, and only then can move.  As BPEX neatly and in civil service language explained it "it allows producers to set up movements days/weeks in advance but it is also appreciated that it may mean an adjustment to current working practices." ie no selling at weekends unless they booked before Thursday.

i have another set of queries, covering moves between engalns/wales and Scotalnd, export, moves from internet user to non-internet and visa versa, in other words anything but the standard move listed in the Q&A - will come back when I know any useful answers.

We are also listed twice, so if you do a move to us you have two choices, don't know if that makes me two producers or just the one so do i have two ets of internet records or one consolidated one - don't yet know !




www.Oaklandspigs.co.uk
"Perfect Pigs" the complete guide to keeping pigs; One Day Pig Courses in South East;
Weaners for sale - Visit our site for details

 

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