[danndans]

I've had pedigree and cross breeds, Boxers, staffie, collies, lab, chihuahua's, and apart from the staffie who is a total baby and loves every one and any one, I think the crossbreds are the happiest, friendliest, and healthiest. Even the staffie, despite her being 100% staff, she doesnt have any papers to her name to say she is of sound health or best of type,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed

I agree with Berkshire Boy, as far as I can see the KC have got their heads a bit too far up where the sun doesnt shine, and see it as they dont need to change because they ARE the kennel club and what they say has to go. Bunch of self righteous snobs most of them.

[doganjo]

Bunch of self righteous snobs most of them.

I'll let my fellow Championship Judges and FT Secretaries know how you feel when we next meet up.

[waterhouse]

As often happens there's right on both sides.  The KC people are a bit of a caricature but they are trying to do a rather difficult job between a membership which has a proportion of dodgy operators and a dog-buying public which is frequently badly informed and subject to the vagaries of fashion.

The rescue charities around here are well stocked with Jack Russell types that bite and untrained PitStaffWeilers that want to rip your throat out.  People are odd and money makes them odder.  We did btw have a labradoodle pup for socialising as a assistance dog which was both very daffy and dumped fur in industrial quantities. She failed to qualify.

In a different context the horse business is full of horses that shouldn't be bred from, fat ponies that have to be rolled into the ring, pushy parents and elastic tape measures.

[Alvic]

I can see the logic in Doganjos comments on breed standards. But what is important is not what they say or who wrote them but how they are interpreted, and from what I've seen through the deerhound world that is as much to do with fashion than with fitness for purpose. If they are so good at ensuring good conformity why do show greyhounds rarely perform in the racing world? Because they may fit the breed standard but are poor runners! Try reading some of the work by Bill Docherty of Doxhope Deerhounds. He was a highly respected breeder and worker of deerhounds who probably has forgotten more about deerhounds than I will ever know, and is very critical of the current fashions, particularly the trend for ever larger dogs.

As for outcrossing or crossbreeding whatever you like to call it. What I mean is introducing new genetic variety into a breed which can only come from other breeds. I agree some breeds have that variety, but some do not and while there may be regulations to allow it how often does it happen? If at all it is a random and occasional process rather than what is needed which is a planned programme. Miss Noble one of the great names in the history of the deerhound world was happy to use black greyhounds in her breeding to improve the breed and she bred champions who were fine hunters. Which raises the question, what is meant by improving the breed? I would argue strongly that getting rid of the health problems caused by inbreeding is a huge improvement, even if it reduces the fitness for purpose. After all what is the point of breeding the perfect dog if it in effect kills the breed?

My problem with the Kennel Club is not what they have in their rules or even their intent. It is the total lack of vision and leadership in this area. Yes they have changed, but unless they are prepared to take on those breeders who think winning Crufts is more important than the long term health of the breed then they are wasting their time and risk government stepping in with a whole load of legislation no one in the dog world wants to see. They need to take serious advice from the veterinary profession and start planned long term breeding programmes improve the health of all breeds, not just those that have specific and serious problems. To go with this they need to take on breeders who insist on bad practice and ban them from the showing world. The pedigree show world would never be the same again, but is that such a bad thing?

I don't care who runs the KC, and wouldn't assume it is "a few oldies drinking G & T" (I love a G&T and am getting towards the old stage), if we are all so wrong about them then why are they so often criticised by so many different groups including many vets.

Finally if I can find it I'll post a link to a very interesting article which I came across in one of the dog magazines. It was by an American breeder of Terriers who maintained that the KC had ruined many of the traditional breeds of terriers. He referred to the KC as a tar pit which sucks breeds in and never lets them go.

[robert waddell]

alvic your having a laugh when you mention the government stepping in to rule the dog world
look at what they did to the car industry the coal mines and the steel mills now the banks and the economy
there is enough graft and corruption without loading it onto the dog world as well
i like a g&t if somebody is buying and you are better with dittery old duffers  running something than young wet behind the ears fashion conscious youngsters  

[Alvic]

Robert - exactly. That's what I meant, it's the last thing we need so lets get it sorted before they cast their beady eye in the direction of the dog world!.

[Sandy]

A lot of organisations employ people with good intentions but the organisation has to be money driven, look at Banks, the tellers are nice people but the band managers ripped us off, the higher up the ladder the more power. The Kennel club are just another organisation, the principle good and some employees good, but the main power not what its meant to be......some times we have to see beyond what we think is organisations intentions

[doganjo]

A lot of organisations employ people with good intentions but the organisation has to be money driven, look at Banks, the tellers are nice people but the band managers ripped us off, the higher up the ladder the more power. The Kennel club are just another organisation, the principle good and some employees good, but the main power not what its meant to be......some times we have to see beyond what we think is organisations intentions

You make very good points there, Sandy, and to be honest I'm not really sure what good slagging off the KC will do.  Perhaps it is time to set up a new organisation for dogs, one that is owned by all the people who subscribe to it, not just a select few who employ a staff, that will enforce responsible breeding, and enforce all health tests are done.  That is all I am wanting - for anyone who breeds a litter of puppies to do their very best by them no matter whether they are cross bred, pure bred or 57 varieties.  I am sorry but it has NEVER been proven to my satisfaction that mongrels are automatically healthier - in dogs there is no such thing as hybrid vigour.  Both parents MUST have ALL the relevant tests done.  It annoyed me intensely to read not so long ago of, for instance, a working lab that couldn't see (PRA) or walk (HD) by the time it was 2!  We cannot control Mother Nature but we sure as Hell can give her a bloody good kick up the pants!

[knightquest]

Mother Nature sorts it - Survival of the fittest. The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.

It's time to name and shame the unsrupulous (sp) breeders of all dogs so that people are made aware of what is going on.

By the way, if mother nature were to intervene, what would happen to breeds like the British Bulldog whos' head is so big that only C Sections facilitate the continuance of the breed? How can that be right?

Ian

[Sandy]

 

[SallyintNorth]

alvic your having a laugh when you mention the government stepping in to rule the dog world
look at what they did to the car industry the coal mines and the steel mills now the banks and the economy

Off topic, but actually it was the combination of trade unions and Japanese imports that did for the car industry.  I agree that the government robustly sealed up the coffin by mismanaging British Leyland but the damage had already been done.

i like a g&t if somebody is buying and you are better with dittery old duffers  running something than young wet behind the ears fashion conscious youngsters  

Well I do agree with you there - but then I am the other side of my half century and the younger me wouldn't have agreed at all!   

[doganjo]

The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.

My point is that the lab in question should never have been bred!  Its parents had not been hip tested nor had the two yearly eye checks

[knightquest]

The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.

My point is that the lab in question should never have been bred!  Its parents had not been hip tested nor had the two yearly eye checks

They should, I'm with you there 

Ian

[waterhouse]

Off topic, but actually it was the combination of trade unions and Japanese imports that did for the car industry.  I agree that the government robustly sealed up the coffin by mismanaging British Leyland but the damage had already been done.

I spent some years up to the elbows in BL during the early 80s and I would place 60% of the blame onto management who were utterly useless and 40% onto HMG which would not take on the unions.  Sir Michael Edwardes was probably a positive element but wasn't really supported by HMG.  The thing was rotten at the core from Lord Stokes reign when Triumph and Rover competed head on in the same market with not a component in common, for example. 

You can't blame the Japanese for making decent cars cheaply, and anyway there was a "voluntary" restriction on imports at the time to 9% of the market when BL had 35%.  I recall Ford made about twice as many cars per employee (and they had their issues) but Toyota made around eight times as many as BL.  All the many BL innovations were wasted by lousy build quality, detail design and inability to talk to their diminishing customer base.  Remember the Allegro, the Austin 3-litre, Marina, Princess, Stag etc.  You were given a squirrel with the Rovers to run along behind and pick up the nuts as they fell off.

[robert waddell]

possibly this warrants a separate thread      when the nuffield factory was built at bathgate it was a government responce to a dwindling job market     the graft and corruption was evident the as is now with government intervention with anything    at the factory build there were fortunes to be made with short loads and false documentation 
after it was operational the theft that was rife was unreal as was the wastage  there was stories of the night shift sleeping on the job and i saw this for myself on a conducted tour of the factory  the makeshift beds at the back of packing cases
management blamed the workies the workies blamed the management     all were responsible in some shape or form   bl developed the mini tractor at a time when everybody was going over 100hp  now the mini tractor market is dominated by the Japanese   they also ignored the home market concentrating on the third world market when this dried up they were screwed     some of there innovations were ahead of others (first with a syncro gearbox)
it is funny how the defeated nations in ww2 are now the one that are dominant
one of the great products of leyland the range rover   was starved of development funding in the early years and is now a success story  and land rover was not British but a copy of the American Willis jeep made with aluminium because steal was in short supply
so if the government ever gets there paws on the dog world who knows what shambles they would make of it
we all have opinions and the right to keep and own animals and breed them it is just some are better than others at it  and it is not just the dog world that is suffering from wrong selection the pig world also suffers the same the recent sale of GOS pigs is a prime example