The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: sabrina on August 21, 2011, 03:43:16 pm
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Have been keeping an eye on our local gumtree adds. There are now more cross bred puppies for sale than pure bred. Price varies from £300- £400. why have people become so stupid. Welfare has gone out the window and how many of these so call designer breeds will live long healthy lives. One of my friends has bought a mini pug !!! To me it looks like the runt of a littler but price £1000 and she thinks she has got a bargin. Neither dog or bitch have had vet checks so goodness knows what pups will end up with. Time all dogs bred had to been done with a reg. breeder to put a stop to this money making group of people. Makes me sick :o
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I have a friend who has bred a litter of labradoodles. Both parents have had their respective health checks - she has the Lab Mum and she has a low hip score, and has her elbows x-rayed, and eyes checked every two years as required. Her pal has the poodle sire and he has had the same. They are now 5 months old and she has reduced the price from £700 gradually down to £350, and as she still has 5 left out of the six she is at the stage of taking any offers just so they can have a home. She is very conscientious and anyone who calls saying they have an allergy and want a LD she asks them to sit in their car with a puppy for half an hour and if they have any reaction they don't get a pup. That's probably why she still has them. Hopefully another friend of mine is going to have one as they will be ideal shooting companions.
Here is the KC list if anyone wants to check what is necessary
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf)
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You know I have kept schtum up to now out of respect for the people on here who are into their pedigree pooches.
I'm pulling my punches even so, but I really do have to take issue with the idea that crossbreed or mongrel dogs are bound to be unhealthy.
Veterinary Medicine and Genetics both would have it that crossing two breeds would give you the ultimate healthy pooch, the F1 hybrid, good for hybrid vigour. According to my vet when I was researching options for a friend, it is rare to get the same kind of inherited problems in first cross animals that are found in the parent's breeds - although he did say it would make sense to not cross a breed which, for instance, has a high incidence of hip dysplasia with another which also has a high incidence of the same problem.
I absolutely applaud all the registered breeders who take a great deal of care to ensure that the pedigree dogs they breed and sell have as low an incidence of their breed's particular problems as is possible - but the point is, these tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.
I have had and have known well pedigree pooches, crossbreds and mongrels, dogs from working and field champion strains and some from show strains, rescues and waifs, surplus farm collies - you name it. All have been lovely dogs, some have had problems, some with health and a few with temperament. For the most part, the crosses and mongrels have had less problems and lived longer than pedigrees of the same body type. A vet once told me that the usual 'one human year equates to seven dog years' applies to large pedigree dogs, that with mongrels and some smaller breeds it is more like one for five.
Me, I like to live and let live. If some people prefer pedigrees, that's fine with me. But I don't like being preached at and I will stand up for any underdog. Some of the very best dogs I have known have been crossbreeds and mongrels, several of them rescues. I have no issue with someone breeding a litter of nice family pet dogs from known but unregistered parents and taking care to make sure the pups go to good homes. I do dislike breeding for pure profit, whether it's pedigrees, 'designer crossbreeds' or bitzers.
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Sally, I do agree, I have had a few cross 57 breeds over the years as well as pedigrees, I would still have some but no more room for more dogs as we breed as a hobby, we have Labs, I just think thier temp etc suits us and its been so nice to be in contact with the new families that now own one of our pups. We do make some money and that often is spent back on the pups, the last lot bought a better more dog friendly realy cheap car but we also love having the pups and do worship our pack of dogs!!!!!
People all have thier tastes and needs in dogs and as long as some one wants an important addition to thier family, its great.
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You know I have kept schtum up to now out of respect for the people on here who are into their pedigree pooches.
I'm pulling my punches even so, but I really do have to take issue with the idea that crossbreed or mongrel dogs are bound to be unhealthy.
Veterinary Medicine and Genetics both would have it that crossing two breeds would give you the ultimate healthy pooch, the F1 hybrid, good for hybrid vigour. According to my vet when I was researching options for a friend, it is rare to get the same kind of inherited problems in first cross animals that are found in the parent's breeds - although he did say it would make sense to not cross a breed which, for instance, has a high incidence of hip dysplasia with another which also has a high incidence of the same problem.
I absolutely applaud all the registered breeders who take a great deal of care to ensure that the pedigree dogs they breed and sell have as low an incidence of their breed's particular problems as is possible - but the point is, these tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.
I have had and have known well pedigree pooches, crossbreds and mongrels, dogs from working and field champion strains and some from show strains, rescues and waifs, surplus farm collies - you name it. All have been lovely dogs, some have had problems, some with health and a few with temperament. For the most part, the crosses and mongrels have had less problems and lived longer than pedigrees of the same body type. A vet once told me that the usual 'one human year equates to seven dog years' applies to large pedigree dogs, that with mongrels and some smaller breeds it is more like one for five.
Me, I like to live and let live. If some people prefer pedigrees, that's fine with me. But I don't like being preached at and I will stand up for any underdog. Some of the very best dogs I have known have been crossbreeds and mongrels, several of them rescues. I have no issue with someone breeding a litter of nice family pet dogs from known but unregistered parents and taking care to make sure the pups go to good homes. I do dislike breeding for pure profit, whether it's pedigrees, 'designer crossbreeds' or bitzers.
What a great post!
Ian
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hese tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.
What absolute rubbish! If you study genetics you will understand that Mother Nature is the one who has the upper hand here and if a breeder DOESN'T do any health checks then that is when MN will put the boot in. ANY responsible breeder, whether of pedigree, cross breed or mongrel, should be checking the health of any breeding stock they intend to breed with. And that goes for ALL animals not just dogs!
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I have to agree with sally on this one, sometimes respectible breeders sit on their high horse and saw that this that and the other and they are the worst offenders. How many breeders are there that breed a litter and over price their dogs and never sell them but a family litter might not be all kc reg ect and sell all the pups for much less. Ive read articles where so called breeders say laeve breeding to people who know what they are doing. What is wrong with a person breeding a litter without health checks. And possibly with another breed but knows that they will be able to find loving homes for them??
How many years have people been breeding dogs without health checks annie??? More than they have i expect?? How many great dogs that live till 20 dont have health checks???
And i too hate to see dogs kile jackawaw (whatever that is) labradoodles and they are still mongrels at trhe end of the day and you cannot change that.
People need to relax about daft health checks, take collies most farmers(expecially the ones round here) wouldnt dream of taking both parent to the vets pay fees and then do whatever else. They just let mother nature get on with it and 99.9% of the time she looks after life.
I think breeders are the worse than people breeding the one litter for family pets whether pedegree or not. Because how many litters with a breeders bitch have??
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Fact - healthy parents are more likely to have healthy pups and it doesn't matter a hoot whether they are pedigree or crossbred.
But cross a lab with a poor hip score with a poodle with a tendency to say gastric torsion and you risk the worst of both worlds. That is why I am sick and tired of so called designer dogs. And that is where the myth that crossbreeds are healthier falls down. I am sorry but I do not accept that a genuine Heinz 57 is the same as the so called designer dogs. I happen to have two beautifully bred pointers with great hip scores but I have them because I love the pointer attributes. There are some absolutely gorgeous labradoodles around. But there are also some absolute horrors around with severe health problems and severe temperament problems.
And in answer to your question Collie26 most of the breeders of working dogs I know will limit their bitches to around 2 litters over their lifetimes.
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Fact - healthy parents are more likely to have healthy pups and it doesn't matter a hoot whether they are pedigree or crossbred.
But cross a lab with a poor hip score with a poodle with a tendency to say gastric torsion and you risk the worst of both worlds. That is why I am sick and tired of so called designer dogs. And that is where the myth that crossbreeds are healthier falls down. I am sorry but I do not accept that a genuine Heinz 57 is the same as the so called designer dogs. I happen to have two beautifully bred pointers with great hip scores but I have them because I love the pointer attributes. There are some absolutely gorgeous labradoodles around. But there are also some absolute horrors around with severe health problems and severe temperament problems.
And in answer to your question Collie26 most of the breeders of working dogs I know will limit their bitches to around 2 litters over their lifetimes.
Heartily agree! I have a fairly little known breed and almost every one of our pups is sold before it is born - not just me, other people in our breed too - not only that, all our dogs are pets, as well as working and show dogs. I have been in the Dog World for nigh on 50 years and the number of breeders I've known, over that period of time, who take more than 3 litters from any bitch I could probably count on two hands. Not only that the majority of them will only breed from healthy parents - that does not necessarily mean expensive tests - many checks can be done by a simple DNA test these days - total cost per dog £90 That is less than one sixth of the price of one of my puppies! It is not worth the hassle not doing these tests nowadays as people are very ready to sue if they get a puppy with a hereditary disease. and there are now lawyers out there ready to take on cases on a NWNF basis.
This is the problem - too many people hear the word 'breeder' and think immediately 'puppy farmer' It is NOT the same!
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I am not against the Heinz 57 type pup, had a few over the years. What I am getting at is the people who are doing this just because there is money to be made without any care or long term thought to what they are breeding. One add on gumtree last week was a pup free to good home, lab cross with kidney problems that needed long term medication. The owners bought the pup and then found out it had problems. Most breeds of dogs were cross bred to get our pedigree animals but at least its done with health checks as Annie says. An add that starts of by saying teacup size to me is not about health but money and there are always people who will pay for what they think is different. Out of the labaradoodles that I used to get in my class only one did not cast hair and 2 were lovely family pets the rest were nutters to be quite frank and the owners could not cope.
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my neighbour has a labradoodle. As a pup he reminded me of an hyperactive child. His owner had him at dog training etc, but it did not change him. Numerous times he got in my field and chased the hens, and ignored the owner when she called him off. She used to have a whistle in her mouth, and do signals with her hands when out with him .....all this achieved was a very red faced woman who was puffed out blowing on her whistle, and the dog running riot!!
To give him credit, now he is older, he is much improved (but not to be trusted with livestock still!)
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The worst culprits are the supposedly respectable breeders, they don't do it for the money - come on get real. Why do so many pedigree dogs have health problems, because of all the inbreeding and fiddling with the breed standard. Bulldogs that can't breath properly etc etc etc.
Not everyone can afford to spend £1000 on a dog so why deny people the chance to own a cross breed at a reasonable price. I have a Lab that gets caught by the local collie every now and then and I sell the pups for £150 which I think is reasonable and am in contact with most of the people who have bought one, why is this wrong. ???
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The worst culprits are the supposedly respectable breeders, they don't do it for the money - come on get real. Why do so many pedigree dogs have health problems, because of all the inbreeding and fiddling with the breed standard. Bulldogs that can't breath properly etc etc etc.
Not everyone can afford to spend £1000 on a dog so why deny people the chance to own a cross breed at a reasonable price. I have a Lab that gets caught by the local collie every now and then and I sell the pups for £150 which I think is reasonable and am in contact with most of the people who have bought one, why is this wrong. ???
You are soooo behind the times and insular, it's not real! The Kennel Club have recently (in the last 2 years) brought in significant changes to regulations for breeding, including health recommendations for each breed, which I posted on here. They are now aiming to limit the age of a bitch to 6 years for last registering of litters, and to a maximum of 3 litters. ALL breeders should aim to breed ONLY healthy pups and that includes you! To allow your bitch to run about loose when she is in season and get caught by a stray male which is also not looked after properly will only increase the antagonism to dogs which is bad enough as it is. The anti dog brigade have a very loud voice in Parliament and will try to have ever more and more restrictions placed on dog owners. You and others who hide their heads in the sand are assisting them to do this by breeding indiscriminately and without health checks.
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Oh yes the kennel club, could you wish to find a more irresponsible,hypercritical, money orientated organisation. If they are so wonderful how come so many businesses and organisations distance themselves. I don't think I am the outdated insular one. ::)
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Oh yes the kennel club, could you wish to find a more irresponsible,hypercritical, money orientated organisation. If they are so wonderful how come so many businesses and organisations distance themselves. I don't think I am the outdated insular one. ::)
Fine, carry on selling your unhealthy mongrels then, and wait to be sued one day. I'll just stick with the organisation that does most to protect dogs in the UK, or rather the ONLY one that does.
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And how many dog breeders (not puppy farmers but genuine breeders) do you think actually make any significant profit from their hobby Berkshire Boy? Because while I may see friends making a profit on one litter I can't think of a single one who makes any significant income over the course of a year out of their dogs. Mind you I can't think of any who charge £1000 for a pup either. And I do know a fair number of breeders given my Mother bred pedigree dogs for nearly 60 years.
Sitting beside me is a girl that placed at Crufts. She has a great hip score, a fantastic temperament but she hates showing. Far from breeding from her the breeder gave her to me because I already had one of her breeding and was looking for a companion for him. Hundreds of pounds invested in hip scoring, entry fees for shows, travelling both here and in Ireland campaigning her on the show circuit for nil return. And with respectable breeders who for one reason or another don't want a bitch bred from while that was very generous it is not that unusual. And that is the reality of respectable breeders. It is their hobby.
And why is it wrong to let a bitch in season run around? Think about the effect it has on the local dogs. A dog will travel a distance to a bitch in season. That collie is probably supposed to be working not heading off and disappearing. And potentially putting himself in danger if he crossed roads and encountered traffic. To say nothing of the fact the owner may not have wanted him to cover a bitch. How much did you pay the owner of the collie as a stud fee or was the money you received from the pups pure profit after you had subtracted any feed costs?
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why would anybody sue you for selling a pup :farmer:
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Interesting point
How much did you pay the owner of the collie as a stud fee
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Oh dear sounds too much like me, however, two spingers rather than doodles. Me thinks owner is to blame more than the pooches - well it is in my case
As a pup he reminded me of an hyperactive child. His owner had him at dog training etc, but it did not change him. Numerous times he got in my field and chased the hens, and ignored the owner when she called him off. She used to have a whistle in her mouth, and do signals with her hands when out with him .....all this achieved was a very red faced woman who was puffed out blowing on her whistle, and the dog running riot!!
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Why would anyone sue for buying a pup, if you buy your family a pup in good faith and it turns out to have hip problems or any other serious condition. 1 long term vet fees if you are lucky, pup put to sleep which leaves family traumatise the list could go on. I know quite a few breeders through working and showing my dogs and their dogs always come first. Their family, well looked after and much ed loved. The people we bought Fallon from came to our house to check us out before they would agree to sell us one of their pups. They also came to see her at 6and 12 months of age and out of the 8 puppies they sold only 1 did not get a good home and when they discovered this they bought the pup back. Breeding any animal well cost wither its pure or cross bred, I choose not to breed Fallon who was a stunning animal and plenty of people told me to take a litter of her. My reasons being I could not live with myself if anything I bred ended up in a bad home or worse out on the street. Since Fallon passed away I have been wondering about buying another puppy or going to our local dogs home. My worry is will I end up with a nutter or another screwed up animal like Tanya. With young grand children I have to be careful.
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Fine, carry on selling your unhealthy mongrels then, and wait to be sued one day. I'll just stick with the organisation that does most to protect dogs in the UK, or rather the ONLY one that does.
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My pups are not unhealthy. Mum is a pedigree Lab and the dad is a good working dog. I live in the middle of nowhere and the only dog that comes visiting is him. So according to you all kennel club breeders are the bees knees and anyone else is a disgrace and should be banned from having dogs and breeding. You should be very carefull you don't hurt yourself when you fall off that high horse.
As to not many pups around for £1000 you obviously breed the wrong dogs. A friend of mine breeds Bernese mountain dogs £1200 each ,a waiting list and a very nice profit.
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And how many dog breeders (not puppy farmers but genuine breeders) do you think actually make any significant profit from their hobby Berkshire Boy? Because while I may see friends making a profit on one litter I can't think of a single one who makes any significant income over the course of a year out of their dogs. Mind you I can't think of any who charge £1000 for a pup either. And I do know a fair number of breeders given my Mother bred pedigree dogs for nearly 60 years.
Sitting beside me is a girl that placed at Crufts. She has a great hip score, a fantastic temperament but she hates showing. Far from breeding from her the breeder gave her to me because I already had one of her breeding and was looking for a companion for him. Hundreds of pounds invested in hip scoring, entry fees for shows, travelling both here and in Ireland campaigning her on the show circuit for nil return. And with respectable breeders who for one reason or another don't want a bitch bred from while that was very generous it is not that unusual. And that is the reality of respectable breeders. It is their hobby.
And why is it wrong to let a bitch in season run around? Think about the effect it has on the local dogs. A dog will travel a distance to a bitch in season. That collie is probably supposed to be working not heading off and disappearing. And potentially putting himself in danger if he crossed roads and encountered traffic. To say nothing of the fact the owner may not have wanted him to cover a bitch. How much did you pay the owner of the collie as a stud fee or was the money you received from the pups pure profit after you had subtracted any feed costs?
Brilliant post! well done!
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I have seen the good side and bad side of both so called respectable KC registered breeders, like everything you have to check out where you decide to buy from and decide what you want to buy.
Nowadays I seem to get peoples cast offs and only have rescue dogs, Rusky a heinz 57 who was left with me at 2 days old and the owner went missing overnight, Bruno a fab GSD that I took off someone for beating him with a stick, and finally Minty a border collie that I found as a pup wandering looking very near to the end. I love them all but it makes me sad to see these dogs mistreated and neglected because people get them too cheap and think they are disposable like most of the materialistic things these days.
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Ellisr, I agree, just having a badge or belonging to organisatios don't make you good or right!
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o dear the people the dog breeders sell to must not be stitched up right if the same were true in the pedigree pig world nobody would sell a pig at all
we breed dogs collies and the pups are born and reared in the house not just dragged into the house on sale day cowering in a corner stinking of pish like the ones we saw when we were looking for dogs yes we have orders for pups and advertise the remainder
we don't vet the purchasers (it would cost a fortune) we keep in touch with buyers if they want to(it is always interesting to hear how well the pups are getting on and how attached to them they get
i still cant see why you would be sued unless the buyer knows more about breeding than the seller or you are purposely breeding dogs that are unfit for purpose :dog:
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I don't like the fact that we are moving towards a sue for no reason culture but I am pleased that it might come in with dog breeders. There are some good breeders out there but there are more bad ones. If a few were sued 'big style' then perhaps it would put the frighteners on the bad breeders and stop so many dogs being bred.
When all is said and done, it's the dogs who suffer most AND THEY SHOULDN'T!!
The Kennel Club has only started to get it's act together recently following that damning exposure on the BBC and the susequent withdrawal of sponsorship of Crufts. They were so set in their ways and some of the breed clubs SO wrong that they had no choice but to change but they'll find a way round it and revert back to mating close relatives for the 'type'
Showing is a hobby for most breeders and they need money to do it and that's one reason for breeding. Whatever the reason stated for breeding a litter, the idea is to raise money when it comes down to it. I tell you one thing though, no breeder will let a winning dog go unless there is a bigger winner following behind.
Don't even start me on which end of the lead is being judged at these shows......................
Ian
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I have faith in human nature. Perhaps I hide my head in the sand. I judge the dogs not the people. I don't make profits on breeding. I only breed when I want a pup and I have 4 or 5 more homes waiting - before I breed. I have decided not to breed my younger bitch as she had a Caesar last time - no medical reason, an attack by another dog. My older bitch is spayed, I will do the same with Belle. If I have another bitch it will be at least 2 years before I breed from that. Perhaps I am in the minority. If I am I am very surprised, and if I am I am very sad.
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If there are so many different breed standards and health checks how come there are so many different problems with so many breeds, hip dispysia, heart problems, breathing problems. Correct me if im wrong but arent the kennel club responsible for setting these??
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There is a breed standard for each breed. It is obvious that you couldn't have the same breed standard for every breed. Each type of cheese has a different recipe. These are recipes for breeds of dog, or cat, or pig etc etc
The health checks have been set out as a result of a number of years research; and this research shows that there are inherited traits that are the same in many breeds. Hip dysplasia for instance is common to, and is rife in, a large number of breeds. Just watch the next Labrador as it walks away from you!
The Kennel Club cannot control what Breeders do, there is no legislation in place - at the moment! (or in fact individual people who want to have a litter, as breeding is open to anyone, and that is the main problem)
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Gosh. Just as well that we all like each other!
I'm afraid that hard economic times, greed and stupidity come together all too often and not least in the dog world.
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My other half wanted to go back to keeping great danes after our 3 lovely boys time passes but neither of us can justify specifying abreed of dog when there are a lot of unwanted dogs needing homes and love
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My other half wanted to go back to keeping great danes after our 3 lovely boys time passes but neither of us can justify specifying abreed of dog when there are a lot of unwanted dogs needing homes and love
If I was starting again, and didn't have four pedigree dogs now, I'd consider doing the same, but I wouldn't go out and buy a mongrel through choice.
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We used to go to rescue centers all the time but all was to offer were very large dogs and cross staffies, nothing wrong with them but at the time we had a small house and I wanted a smaller dog, we bought Bruce who turned out to be a lovely cross and was a deliberate mateing of Rottie and Sheep dog, then a few years on, the same applied and it was also hard and expensive to get a small rescue dog so we bought a patterdale/lakeland, both have since gone but we bought our lab as we wanted to be sure of what the fully grown dog would turn into roughly, some pups that are 57 types, you never know. THats our reason for pedigree, I have had several Labs durring my life and loved them, also had a Alsation but I found others were funny with you when out walking, people never trust them but she was lovely and ended up with displaced hips!!!
My point is CHOICE!!!!!! Know one should make anyone buy just pedigree dogs or just mugrals, its all about choice and the old way of if I had a nice bitch and someone had a lovley male dog, then I am sure I would have mated them. Trends go either way and who am I to stop people buying what they want for a price they want to pay.
I don't want a designer vigina but sure not stopping others from having them ;)
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We had a short-lived German Shepherd from the RSPCA who'd been in a particularly nasty cruelty prosecution. Sheba was the loveliest natured dog - never nagged and was always surprised and pleased every time she was fed.
We lived in the centre of town then on the shortest route between the main fastfood outlets and the railway station. I used to take her out around eleven every night for a short walk wearing a cheap reflective jacket. The fact that Sheba could barely walk and my jacket was orange didnt stop the local inebriates from thinking they were in the presence of the Old Bill. It was a hoot!
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It's all about choice. If I choose to breed crosses thats my choice, if people want to buy crosses that's their choice and if breeders want to breed pedigree dogs thats their choice.
Why certain people think they can dictate what others should do and that their way is the only way is beyond me.
It's terrible that so many dogs are awaiting rescue but I don't see why that should stop you getting the dog you want, its your choice.
If everyone stopped buying puppies and re homed rescue dogs instead that would be great, no one would breed pedigree and the Kennel club would go out of business and we could all make our own choices. I can dream. :D
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Just as I can dream that people will act responsibly, plan their litters and never allow bitches in season to roam. Whether you breed pedigrees or cross breds of any species careful selection of sire and dam is I believe the starting point. And nothing will ever shift me from that view. Sandy describes choice. Allowing a bitch to roam removes choice from the owner of the dog. And there is the vital difference.
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It's all about choice. If I choose to breed crosses thats my choice, if people want to buy crosses that's their choice and if breeders want to breed pedigree dogs thats their choice.
Why certain people think they can dictate what others should do and that their way is the only way is beyond me.
It's terrible that so many dogs are awaiting rescue but I don't see why that should stop you getting the dog you want, its your choice.
If everyone stopped buying puppies and re homed rescue dogs instead that would be great, no one would breed pedigree and the Kennel club would go out of business and we could all make our own choices. I can dream. :D
I have always insisted that choice is our right. Our Kingdom has been built on that premise. But someone buying a puppy which has inherently diseased parents has no choice - until a year or two down the line they discover their much loved animal has a heart defect, or hip dysplasia. Then they have a choice - spend a large amount of money hoping to give their pet some quality of life or have their vet kill it - oops sorry euthanase, put to sleep - or whatever other euphonism you care to use. Is that choice? I don't think so! If anyone who breeds, whether they are called a breeder, a back street breeder, a small time breeder, or just someone with a nice bitch and a friend with a lovely male dog, were to do all the required health checks then everyone would have a choice. That is the whole point - breed anything you like to anything else you like - have that choice - but ensure they are not carrying any inherited diseases first.
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Like us humans?
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Well OH came home last night, went onto the computer to show me an E-Mail from one of our friends. She has just taken on a cross Golden Retriever pup. Mother a pure bred was dumped at a rescue centre when she was pregnant. As far as the owners were concerned their bitch was ruined by having puppies that were not pure bred. Puppy is beautiful very much like her mother. I so want to fill the large gap in my life that losing Fallon has left. Tanya is starting to recover from losing her friend as is Jake but I find each day hard. Maybe the right dog will find me.
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Sabrina :bouquet: for you.
I think the right dog will come along when the time is right, im a strong believer in that outlook, when your heart is ready. :wave:
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Maybe the right dog will find me.
I think they often do. :bouquet:
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:bouquet: How lovely, we had a stray walk into our house years ago, sadly she also ran off again a few years later, the littlest Hobo!!!!!
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A good indicator of the relative health of cross breeds vs pedigrees is the hunting world. Game keepers dogs have to work hard and so good health is at a premium. They are increasingly looking to crosses such as labradoodles as the traditional breeds are suffering increasing health problems which are rare in crosses.
As for registered breeders. We have 2 deerhounds as well as lurchers. Currently deerhounds are a pretty healthy breed, probably because until the hunting ban they were often used for hunting as well as showing. But I for one have great concerns about the future. Many breeders are fixated on breeding simply for the show ring and so look to exaggerate certain characteristics which judges look for. Inbreeding is the quickest way to do this. The breeder of our dogs imported the male to avoid inbreeding problems. But a number of "reputable" breeders who were interested in puppies were unhappy because they were not inbred enough!
I dislike the Kennel Club enormously, but I have to admit it is the one organisation with the resources and clout to change things. They need to get away from the total aversion to outcrossing with different breeds to increase the gene pool, and get away from the stupid obsession with the current breed standards which are aimed at the show ring and put the long term health and welfare of the breed at the centre of any future standards.
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A very well put post Alvic. The only problem is whether the Kennel club has the will to change, it is still run by the pink gin and blue rinse brigade like so many of our outdated organisations.
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A good indicator of the relative health of cross breeds vs pedigrees is the hunting world. Game keepers dogs have to work hard and so good health is at a premium. They are increasingly looking to crosses such as labradoodles as the traditional breeds are suffering increasing health problems which are rare in crosses.
Not up here they ain't - my pal has three doodles left from a litter of 6 that are 5 months old - from two health tested parents, one of which is a lab that is worked and has FT Ch parents and grandparents. She had five left up until last weekend. The first one went when they were 12 weeks old. Fortunately she has the facilities to look after them and do a wee bit of training with them, but be warned anyone who thinks they can make a quick buck from any kind of doodle. Any breeder, whether a one off or in large numbers should be prepared to take any dogs back or hold onto them until they find their forever homes. She had a lab dog a couple of years ago pup until he was 13 months - from the sister to the dam of the doodles, sire a FT Ch.
I dislike the Kennel Club enormously, but I have to admit it is the one organisation with the resources and clout to change things. They need to get away from the total aversion to outcrossing with different breeds to increase the gene pool, and get away from the stupid obsession with the current breed standards which are aimed at the show ring and put the long term health and welfare of the breed at the centre of any future standards.
I must take issue with this unfair and irrational condemnation.
Breed standards were initially written for working breeds and progressed from there. The problem is that non-dog people were employed to 'standardise' the standards. But if you read any standard properly you will understand that the word picture it paints is for conformation regardless of whether the actual dog works or not. And if a dog is not conformed properly it cannot reach its full potential in the field. For example "Chest deep. Brisket reaching to elbow. Foreleg length is slightly greater than chest depth. Ribcage well rounded. Back short with loin short and strong" indicates to me that this dog should have a deep chest for plenty of heart room, with plenty rib cage room for both heart and lungs, and short coupled, with a decent length of leg, so that it can hunt for me all day on either moors and woodlands. In addition, if you read the list of Health requirements for 'responsible' breeders (ABS) you will see that the KC are taking great care on health issues.
As regards aversion to outcrossing I think you mean cross breeding? You perhaps do not realise that there are regulations in place to do just that - but only to improve on what is there already - that is the whole point of breeding in my opinion, breed to improve the stock you have now - surely that applies to all animals??? The KC will allow dogs to be registered which are a result of continued crossbreeding provided they breed true within seven generations and are certified by two conformation judges to be of a quality conforming to the standard.
As for gene pools, in the majority of breeds there is a huge gene pool, the problem is that if a dog wins a lot in either bench or field it is the best thing since sliced bread and everyman and his wife wants to use it at stud. THAT is what narrows the gene pool NOT the number of dogs in the country. Human stupidity! The KC cannot regulate that!
And incidentally, the KC is run by a huge office organisation, not by a few oldies drinking G & T
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I've had pedigree and cross breeds, Boxers, staffie, collies, lab, chihuahua's, and apart from the staffie who is a total baby and loves every one and any one, I think the crossbreds are the happiest, friendliest, and healthiest. Even the staffie, despite her being 100% staff, she doesnt have any papers to her name to say she is of sound health or best of type,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedigree_Dogs_Exposed)
I agree with Berkshire Boy, as far as I can see the KC have got their heads a bit too far up where the sun doesnt shine, and see it as they dont need to change because they ARE the kennel club and what they say has to go. Bunch of self righteous snobs most of them.
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Bunch of self righteous snobs most of them.
I'll let my fellow Championship Judges and FT Secretaries know how you feel when we next meet up. ;D ;D ;D
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As often happens there's right on both sides. The KC people are a bit of a caricature but they are trying to do a rather difficult job between a membership which has a proportion of dodgy operators and a dog-buying public which is frequently badly informed and subject to the vagaries of fashion.
The rescue charities around here are well stocked with Jack Russell types that bite and untrained PitStaffWeilers that want to rip your throat out. People are odd and money makes them odder. We did btw have a labradoodle pup for socialising as a assistance dog which was both very daffy and dumped fur in industrial quantities. She failed to qualify.
In a different context the horse business is full of horses that shouldn't be bred from, fat ponies that have to be rolled into the ring, pushy parents and elastic tape measures.
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I can see the logic in Doganjos comments on breed standards. But what is important is not what they say or who wrote them but how they are interpreted, and from what I've seen through the deerhound world that is as much to do with fashion than with fitness for purpose. If they are so good at ensuring good conformity why do show greyhounds rarely perform in the racing world? Because they may fit the breed standard but are poor runners! Try reading some of the work by Bill Docherty of Doxhope Deerhounds. He was a highly respected breeder and worker of deerhounds who probably has forgotten more about deerhounds than I will ever know, and is very critical of the current fashions, particularly the trend for ever larger dogs.
As for outcrossing or crossbreeding whatever you like to call it. What I mean is introducing new genetic variety into a breed which can only come from other breeds. I agree some breeds have that variety, but some do not and while there may be regulations to allow it how often does it happen? If at all it is a random and occasional process rather than what is needed which is a planned programme. Miss Noble one of the great names in the history of the deerhound world was happy to use black greyhounds in her breeding to improve the breed and she bred champions who were fine hunters. Which raises the question, what is meant by improving the breed? I would argue strongly that getting rid of the health problems caused by inbreeding is a huge improvement, even if it reduces the fitness for purpose. After all what is the point of breeding the perfect dog if it in effect kills the breed?
My problem with the Kennel Club is not what they have in their rules or even their intent. It is the total lack of vision and leadership in this area. Yes they have changed, but unless they are prepared to take on those breeders who think winning Crufts is more important than the long term health of the breed then they are wasting their time and risk government stepping in with a whole load of legislation no one in the dog world wants to see. They need to take serious advice from the veterinary profession and start planned long term breeding programmes improve the health of all breeds, not just those that have specific and serious problems. To go with this they need to take on breeders who insist on bad practice and ban them from the showing world. The pedigree show world would never be the same again, but is that such a bad thing?
I don't care who runs the KC, and wouldn't assume it is "a few oldies drinking G & T" (I love a G&T and am getting towards the old stage), if we are all so wrong about them then why are they so often criticised by so many different groups including many vets.
Finally if I can find it I'll post a link to a very interesting article which I came across in one of the dog magazines. It was by an American breeder of Terriers who maintained that the KC had ruined many of the traditional breeds of terriers. He referred to the KC as a tar pit which sucks breeds in and never lets them go.
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alvic your having a laugh when you mention the government stepping in to rule the dog world
look at what they did to the car industry the coal mines and the steel mills now the banks and the economy
there is enough graft and corruption without loading it onto the dog world as well
i like a g&t if somebody is buying and you are better with dittery old duffers running something than young wet behind the ears fashion conscious youngsters :D :farmer: :D
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Robert - exactly. That's what I meant, it's the last thing we need so lets get it sorted before they cast their beady eye in the direction of the dog world!.
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A lot of organisations employ people with good intentions but the organisation has to be money driven, look at Banks, the tellers are nice people but the band managers ripped us off, the higher up the ladder the more power. The Kennel club are just another organisation, the principle good and some employees good, but the main power not what its meant to be......some times we have to see beyond what we think is organisations intentions
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A lot of organisations employ people with good intentions but the organisation has to be money driven, look at Banks, the tellers are nice people but the band managers ripped us off, the higher up the ladder the more power. The Kennel club are just another organisation, the principle good and some employees good, but the main power not what its meant to be......some times we have to see beyond what we think is organisations intentions
You make very good points there, Sandy, and to be honest I'm not really sure what good slagging off the KC will do. Perhaps it is time to set up a new organisation for dogs, one that is owned by all the people who subscribe to it, not just a select few who employ a staff, that will enforce responsible breeding, and enforce all health tests are done. That is all I am wanting - for anyone who breeds a litter of puppies to do their very best by them no matter whether they are cross bred, pure bred or 57 varieties. I am sorry but it has NEVER been proven to my satisfaction that mongrels are automatically healthier - in dogs there is no such thing as hybrid vigour. Both parents MUST have ALL the relevant tests done. It annoyed me intensely to read not so long ago of, for instance, a working lab that couldn't see (PRA) or walk (HD) by the time it was 2! We cannot control Mother Nature but we sure as Hell can give her a bloody good kick up the pants!
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Mother Nature sorts it - Survival of the fittest. The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.
It's time to name and shame the unsrupulous (sp) breeders of all dogs so that people are made aware of what is going on.
By the way, if mother nature were to intervene, what would happen to breeds like the British Bulldog whos' head is so big that only C Sections facilitate the continuance of the breed? How can that be right?
Ian
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:)
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alvic your having a laugh when you mention the government stepping in to rule the dog world
look at what they did to the car industry the coal mines and the steel mills now the banks and the economy
Off topic, but actually it was the combination of trade unions and Japanese imports that did for the car industry. I agree that the government robustly sealed up the coffin by mismanaging British Leyland but the damage had already been done.
i like a g&t if somebody is buying and you are better with dittery old duffers running something than young wet behind the ears fashion conscious youngsters :D :farmer: :D
Well I do agree with you there - but then I am the other side of my half century and the younger me wouldn't have agreed at all! ;D
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The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.
My point is that the lab in question should never have been bred! Its parents had not been hip tested nor had the two yearly eye checks ::)
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The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.
My point is that the lab in question should never have been bred! Its parents had not been hip tested nor had the two yearly eye checks ::)
They should, I'm with you there :)
Ian
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Off topic, but actually it was the combination of trade unions and Japanese imports that did for the car industry. I agree that the government robustly sealed up the coffin by mismanaging British Leyland but the damage had already been done.
I spent some years up to the elbows in BL during the early 80s and I would place 60% of the blame onto management who were utterly useless and 40% onto HMG which would not take on the unions. Sir Michael Edwardes was probably a positive element but wasn't really supported by HMG. The thing was rotten at the core from Lord Stokes reign when Triumph and Rover competed head on in the same market with not a component in common, for example.
You can't blame the Japanese for making decent cars cheaply, and anyway there was a "voluntary" restriction on imports at the time to 9% of the market when BL had 35%. I recall Ford made about twice as many cars per employee (and they had their issues) but Toyota made around eight times as many as BL. All the many BL innovations were wasted by lousy build quality, detail design and inability to talk to their diminishing customer base. Remember the Allegro, the Austin 3-litre, Marina, Princess, Stag etc. You were given a squirrel with the Rovers to run along behind and pick up the nuts as they fell off.
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possibly this warrants a separate thread when the nuffield factory was built at bathgate it was a government responce to a dwindling job market the graft and corruption was evident the as is now with government intervention with anything at the factory build there were fortunes to be made with short loads and false documentation
after it was operational the theft that was rife was unreal as was the wastage there was stories of the night shift sleeping on the job and i saw this for myself on a conducted tour of the factory the makeshift beds at the back of packing cases
management blamed the workies the workies blamed the management all were responsible in some shape or form bl developed the mini tractor at a time when everybody was going over 100hp now the mini tractor market is dominated by the Japanese they also ignored the home market concentrating on the third world market when this dried up they were screwed some of there innovations were ahead of others (first with a syncro gearbox)
it is funny how the defeated nations in ww2 are now the one that are dominant
one of the great products of leyland the range rover was starved of development funding in the early years and is now a success story and land rover was not British but a copy of the American Willis jeep made with aluminium because steal was in short supply
so if the government ever gets there paws on the dog world who knows what shambles they would make of it
we all have opinions and the right to keep and own animals and breed them it is just some are better than others at it and it is not just the dog world that is suffering from wrong selection the pig world also suffers the same the recent sale of GOS pigs is a prime example :farmer:
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Pretty much agree though Japan has been in a slump for 20 years with a dwindling and ageing population. And the German banks financed both the sub-prime crisis and the Euro-liar countries so they're looking screwed too. Deutsche bank's share price has halved in the past few weeks while commerzbank's is down two-thirds.
When I left school one of my friends went to work at vauxhall where theft of bits was pretty much a perk of the job. Shades of Johnny Cash
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I have two golden retrievers coming fast towards a year old now. When the time comes they will both be hip tested etc. If either of them are way off the low scores I am going to have them spade. It is just not worth ruining someone else's life selling them an unhealthy puppy.
Years ago we purchased a collie pup papers galore. She lived to 6 months old as she had been born with a condition that the only treatment that would have saved her would have been a heart transport. We took her to the Royal Vet college in Hertfordshire for this diagnosis. Probably the rest of the litter would have been born with similar problems in their opinion, but I could not find out as breeder was reluctant to give me any info on how the rest of the litter fared. That is just selling puppies for profit, blow the consequences.
I have had collie pups since then. One who ended up in the rescue centre until we rescued him at 6 weeks so interbreed that he has one small eye which he has some vision in and the other none. He ended up there as the breeder could not get any money for him.He is now 11. The other 11 year old collie also from the sanctuary when she was a pup two weeks later than the first, had worms the length of a 12" ruler when we took her home in the car,I've never seen anything like it before. She was another that could not be sold.They have been great dogs so far and they had no papers.
So please be responsible breeders. Who wants an unhealthy dog. They are far happier if they are as well as it is possible for us to make them.
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I have two golden retrievers coming fast towards a year old now. When the time comes they will both be hip tested etc. If either of them are way off the low scores I am going to have them spade. It is just not worth ruining someone else's life selling them an unhealthy puppy.
Years ago we purchased a collie pup papers galore. She lived to 6 months old as she had been born with a condition that the only treatment that would have saved her would have been a heart transport. We took her to the Royal Vet college in Hertfordshire for this diagnosis. Probably the rest of the litter would have been born with similar problems in their opinion, but I could not find out as breeder was reluctant to give me any info on how the rest of the litter fared. That is just selling puppies for profit, blow the consequences.
I have had collie pups since then. One who ended up in the rescue centre until we rescued him at 6 weeks so interbreed that he has one small eye which he has some vision in and the other none. He ended up there as the breeder could not get any money for him.He is now 11. The other 11 year old collie also from the sanctuary when she was a pup two weeks later than the first, had worms the length of a 12" ruler when we took her home in the car,I've never seen anything like it before. She was another that could not be sold.They have been great dogs so far and they had no papers.
So please be responsible breeders. Who wants an unhealthy dog. They are far happier if they are as well as it is possible for us to make them.
And that is EXACTLY what I have been saying all through this thread!
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Latest add on our local Gumtree warning owners NOT to give dogs free to good home. Seems these poor pets are being snapped up for bait in dog fighting. :o
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OMG how awful. Please do not give them away for free. If really stuck try R.S.P.C.A or Scottish equivalent or local animal sanctuary's, not let them go as dog bait, it makes all the hair on my arms stick up just thinking about that.
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Yes, it's all over Facebook and Twitter, and blogs - rife in Aberdeen, no-one dare leave their dogs tied up outside a shop these days - I never did anyway but a lot of people do.
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Its rife in our area too. We have a traveller site a mile or so from here and while the majority of the residents there are lovely, law abiding people (in fact one is my best friend!) there is a small minority who are not (isn't there always in every social group?) . We have known of local dogs, cats, chickens and ducks stolen as bait for either the fighting dogs (Akita's they have) or their cock fighting. I've had a friend lose a cockerel and as she lives opposite and 2 of her sheep were attacked and killed by a loose dog from there, we have suspicions. Very sad, cruel and totally abhorrant IMO.
There is also known to be a man in a blue van collecting 'unwanted' staffies who were posted as free to good home, they are also planned as bait ???
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B*ST*RDS!!!!
These scum should be put into a cage, naked and used as training for police dogs >:(
Makes me SO angry when dogs are abused.
Ian
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Dogs ARE mans/womans best friend...without my dogs I would be sad!
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Dogs ARE mans/womans best friend...without my dogs I would be sad!
Hear, hear Sandy
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Mother Nature sorts it - Survival of the fittest. The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.
It's time to name and shame the unsrupulous (sp) breeders of all dogs so that people are made aware of what is going on.
By the way, if mother nature were to intervene, what would happen to breeds like the British Bulldog whos' head is so big that only C Sections facilitate the continuance of the breed? How can that be right?
Ian
Ian your idea is a fair one but don't start naming and shaming on this site lest some one decided to take the site owners on for liabel and loss of income .. there are many that would chance their arm trying to get compensations that's for sure.
A letter to local councils asking about dog breeded licences and council health checks etc. because you are very very worried & concerned as to the sort of dog they are selling (you can also ask to remain anonymous ) with similar to the RSPCA etc often is far more effective.
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I was talking to a woman who was running a high energy rescue centre basically for unwanted dogs like collies ect. They have been comming from all over battersea where collies arent suited to city life really! And also frim ireland lots from ireland pups to elderly dogs, there has been a surge in collies as the government has given farmers a grant to breed collies which has resulted in lots of unwanted collies!!?? How much is true about this i wouldnt like to say about the grant that is. But she also said (please dont take my word for this because i havent looked at this) but that the welsh government has given planning permision for 200!!!! Yes 200 kennels used for breeding dogs!!!!!!!!!
This isnt going to help anyone !!!
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Yes, it's true - I saw a campaign/petition on Facebook to try to get the Welsh Government to turn this around and cancel the licences.
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Mother Nature sorts it - Survival of the fittest. The lab in question would die. Unless of course insurance policies are thrown at it.
It's time to name and shame the unsrupulous (sp) breeders of all dogs so that people are made aware of what is going on.
By the way, if mother nature were to intervene, what would happen to breeds like the British Bulldog whos' head is so big that only C Sections facilitate the continuance of the breed? How can that be right?
Ian
Ian your idea is a fair one but don't start naming and shaming on this site lest some one decided to take the site owners on for liabel and loss of income .. there are many that would chance their arm trying to get compensations that's for sure.
A letter to local councils asking about dog breeded licences and council health checks etc. because you are very very worried & concerned as to the sort of dog they are selling (you can also ask to remain anonymous ) with similar to the RSPCA etc often is far more effective.
As pet shop owners, we were assesed as to our standards etc by Birmingham City Council. During a conversation with the head man himself, we asked how many registered dog breeders there were in the whole of Birmingham?
Guess how many?
The answer - ONE! I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
No worries of me doing anything on here to jeopardise this site by the way. It's too good :)
Ian
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I'm more than sick as well.
Before the holiday of a life time ( nearly six week touring around Europe dragging out 4 bed shed ) we sought out as many kennels as we could find in a 30 mile area . Had a look at them all and ended up with only two to go back to , the one we initally decided on said sorry we cannot do it as there is a fully booked list for three days in the middle of the period .
they only kennel dogs and do not breed them nor do they rehome them .
second place was looking good .. an RSPCA vehicle was there taking two very skinny sheepdogs into the reception building .. the dogs were in a rweal mess , coveren in excrement aqnd showing ribs you could have played the national anthem on.
We had a good look round ..not all pens were full bit they were dry and clean , no real nasty stink etc etc.
Things looked good the people had a breeding establishment and out nin a well wired in barn and yard area were several young pups yapping and prancing around.
On this information we left Merle there secure in the knowledge he would be looked after . The owners even said they would specially buy in his diet of Skinners Rough and Ready for him and feed him the two meals a day of two of our scoops each time .
We also provided a vet bedding blanket and a kong extreme chew thingy for his stay .. lots of assurances were given as to his great time he would have. He weighed 31 Kg a fortnight earlier at the vets when we took him for his Kennel cough vaccination & to get him a front line flea treatment and a decent wormer down his neck .
When we returned & went to collect to collect the dog the next morning , Merle let out a long drawn out howl as he recognised the car and my daughters voice. .... something he has never done before.
he cried into my hands when his pen was opened , he smelt of rotting something and looked much thinner than when we took him. he looked ass if he needed a bath .
I took him to the caged cargo areaof the KIA and had to help put him in the car as he was shaking and unsure. at geting in .
My lass paid whilst I did this . On getting home I checked him for fleas ( he been Front lined the day before going to the kennel ) and found him quite hot , his fore legs were full of thick matted hair that stank to high heavens .. I stripped off bunged on some shorts and took him into our wetroom and gave him a ( vet prescribed ) medicated shampoo , as I did this I noticed several sores on him and that he had no claws to speak of, his elbows were devoid of hair, he was runnig a temperature.
Once shampooed and gently dried I noticed he had no toe nails on any of his feet they were worn to almost the quick and there were several circles on his pads wht had been healed leaving rings where something had occured.
I rang the vet and got an appointment for the next morning .
Merle had a very high temp[erature and weighed only 24,4 kg the vet estimated he'd lost over 6 kg thats 13.2 pounds in old money .
The vet gave him a real good examination and said she was disgusted that he'd ben kept in a kennels and not been taken to a vet . he was not only suffering a high temp & been half starved he was also very very dehydrated and would have been very very ill in another few days or so.
He's now had a course of antibiotics and in ten days has put back on six pounds in weight . his temp had settled .
The sores have healed but the bare elbows are still balder than me.
That stinking stuff on his front legs was saliva in his hair wherer he had licked at sore places leaving him with a skin infection ..it is slowly starting to lift out as his hair regrows ..each day I gently comb him out and the pile of brown matted hair is getting smaller it now is only a big jaffa size.
He won't leave my side , he's getting three meals aday of 200 grm each meal plus a codliver oil capsule every other day and has also been re frontlined and re wormed ..poor little bugger was full of worms ... god only knows what he'd been fed or where theybhad been keeping him for his vet bed blanket was not chewed up he usually gets through one every month , he also demolishes a kong extreme every six weeks .. the one we sent with him was on top of a cage out side the main kennel block and untouched .
Our vet told us of the days when she was trying to get animal experience in place to help her become a vet.. one lady made up three meals aday for her goldie and put them in heat sealed bags with the dogs name on them and each days date .. the vet said a soon as the lady went out the gate the owner of the kennels threw the lot in the 1 tonne industrial wheelie bin and said the dog gets this .. which was about a cheap and nasty a dry dog food you could ever buy unless you had it specially made for you ... it was a very poor maintenence diet for an old dog formula.
I live in South Wales and if this is the standard of registered kennels god help the poor mutts.
Breeding set ups are even worse as we found out after buying a goldie four years ago aged 9 weeks old .. We got a dog ( JET _ that initally looked as though it belonged to the farm house we visited to buy him ( pedigreed at that if I wanted to pay extra )
he always seemed to not want to play and bounce around loike a loon as my other goldies have always done.
At seven months old his hips were so shallow they would not support him he had had six leg dislocations front and rear just walking to 7 from school 450 mtrs away and back , the vet reckoned he was at least 10 months old for when he was castrated at this seven month point his tackle was that of a very mature dog , one of the biggest he'd ever seen so said the vet ..
We tried using things from the vet such as a high protein medicated diet to speed up bone growth but at just over ten months old after three more dislocations we had him put down his hips & shoulders were severely arthritic and creaking , he was in tremendous pain most of the time.
I took him to the vet the day after we purchased him , he had to be treated for a strange kidney infection and despite being assured he had been treated with a prescribed wormer a few days earlier he shat kitting needle lengths of them for two days after the vets dosage of wormer for he found them in a lump in his gut.
After we had had him put down I got a bit morbid and started looking at some pictures of him that we took at the farm house when the penny suddenly dropped.. close to the kennel shed was a sheep trailer ,the floor showed it was covered in vast amounts of yellow excrement & some reddish regurgitated food .
.. sheep s**t is green .. Jet had been shipped in from a puppy farm and he'd been the runt of an earlier litter and had been shoved in with the litter being sold.
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I have a friend who has bred a litter of labradoodles. Both parents have had their respective health checks - she has the Lab Mum and she has a low hip score, and has her elbows x-rayed, and eyes checked every two years as required. Her pal has the poodle sire and he has had the same. They are now 5 months old and she has reduced the price from £700 gradually down to £350, and as she still has 5 left out of the six she is at the stage of taking any offers just so they can have a home. She is very conscientious and anyone who calls saying they have an allergy and want a LD she asks them to sit in their car with a puppy for half an hour and if they have any reaction they don't get a pup. That's probably why she still has them. Hopefully another friend of mine is going to have one as they will be ideal shooting companions.
Here is the KC list if anyone wants to check what is necessary
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf)
More likely that folks don't have the dosh to feed them & look after them .. there is a massive desserted dog prob at present due to the depresion/recession & unemployment.
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Plantoid I am so sorry to hear of Merle's plight.
It's a cautionary tale. Always try a stay of a night or two in a new kennels before leaving your pet for a longer stay.
I don't know if you have ever left Merle in kennels before, but what you describe sounds like pining and displacement activity, pure and simple. He's been distraught at being left in kennels (I'm sorry if this is hard to hear) and has chewed his legs and paced and jumped until his nails have been worn right down. His weight loss is most likely a combination of incessent pacing and jumping and not eating due to pining. The bare elbows are likely to be from lying on cement with insufficient bedding underneath him - perhaps he lay at the door and not on the bedding you took in for him, I don't know.
No question the kennel staff should have realised he was struggling and done something to help - and you must tell them how upset and angry you are at the state your dog was in and their lack of reaction to it.
If you need to leave Merle again, would it be possible to have him stay with a friend, preferably one with another dog he likes? If not, you will need to build up his confidence in kennels slowly with short stays. Other options - some people do house- and pet-sitting, or a local friend maybe would stay at your home with him? Some people do 'kennelling' where the dog lives in their home with them and is treated like their own family pet.
Another thing that might help is to have another dog as a companion for Merle, then you can kennel them both together and they won't feel so abandoned if they have each other.
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Hi Sal,
Thanks for your input .. there was no vacancies to try a trial session .
I've done the kennelled with good friends who had two dogs ..
Never again ....so many fleas , sores / infected flea bite despite me frontlining her the day before kennelling , she also and dog infected bites off their animals , plus the 30 kg of food that should have lasted two months was all gone .. our goldie had shot up from 27.5 kg to 38 kg in seven weeks , she cringed & wimpered when I picked up my copy of The Times .... all due to " My best friends " of 12 years .
I also did a specialist gundog kennelling with her .. the kennel pen was almost solid with crap when we returned five days early , her feed bowl was crusted with gunge and her coat was full of fleas and dog muck.
Though I did find a good guy who I used to go shooting with ,he treated her like she was his own dog , she slept bybhis bed.
When we went to pick her up after four weeks she was non plussed as to who she went with after her initial greeting us.
Re Merle ,
I talked at length with the vet and they said that in their mind he was only getting a poor maint. ration . He drank a bowl of water and wolfed a first return meal .. she said that for him to be in the kennel so long he would have adjusted cats are different and would starve .
I forgot to say he has been a leg licker from day one , he always pulls his bedding out of any bed box then lays his chest on it and chewes it to bits . Yet his bedding was on top of the pen and still fully complete instead of being in tatters as I would have expected .
We sat and weighed up the likely costs of trying to get the kennel sorted out and a county court refund/compensation but realised that it would cost us a fortune with no real chance of success .
Those kennel people also know where we live so we came to the conclusion not was just not worth it..
The best thing we can do is tell as many people as we can what weight he went in and what weight he came out if they are looking for a kennel & let them make their own decisions , sound in the knowledge that if you reccommend something as good you'll tell around four people and they will make the knowledge base spread to around 30 people , yet if you have a problem you tell over 12 people and the base now expands to well over 300 people .
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We have a farm bred collie springer cross, she was from the farmers gun dog and sheepdog! They had bred a couple of these litters over the years as the pups turned out to be excellent pets. Ours is wonderful, despite when I brought her home being told by everyone I know that I had made a mistake and she would be impossible - she is the best family dog I think I could have!! Our son has ADHD and she has the energy to cope with him and charges around with him all day long and never seems to get tired, but is also very loyal and protective of us all and and other animals.
We also have a KC registered Newfoundland, who is also a much loved family pet and although is very clumsy, messy, and a bit naughty at times is just as brilliant! She has different strengths, her size and loud deep bark warns off any intruders and she is so loving and caring with us, especially our son.
I think it all depends on what you want a dog for, I think there are good and bad people involved in pedigree breeding and also in mongrel breeding and I don't think it is right to say all pedigree breeders are wrong or all mongrel or traditional breeders are wrong.
The farmer we got our girl from charged only £90 for her, the Newfy cost us £900 from a pedigree breeder. They both bred for completely different reasons, the farmer just because he had 2 lovely dogs who had a track record of producing brilliant family pets although not pure breds and the pedigree breeder had an interest in Newfoundlands and St Bernards. Other breeders at the time were charging £1500-£2000 for a black and white Newfy pup like ours.
We were quite annoyed at one point, when the Newfy was 6 months or so old we took her to a large country show which just happened to be holding a large dog show, and we thought it would be a good idea to take her round as part of her socialisation. We got to the part of the show where they were showing the Newfies and were delighted to see so many! Soon after we arrived we were surrounded by people prodding her, inspecting her teeth and feet and demanding to know her pedigree. They were falling over each other to get to us first. After repeating to them that she was just a family pet upteen times and telling people 'no we wont take a deposit for her first pup' we had had enough. After one chap demanded 'whats it out of?' i replied 'SHE came out of another dog!' These people also completely ignored our other dog, one person even shoving her out the way so she could get to the Newfy. We vacated quite quickly as we were telling these people to leave them both alone and our tempers were getting quite short! Some of the pedigree breeders do see them as objects, and not as a living breathing creature who just wants to please.
What really annoys me is the lack of control over people keeping dogs, I think that is the problem. All of the dog rescue places are full of poor staffies etc that have been used by thugs to threaten people which has ruined the reputation of a breed which are also great family dogs. Also these designer handbag dogs, these silly airheads who have them as an accessory then want to change them as regularly as the new fashion dictates as if they were a pair of shoes or a bag.
That is what needs sorting out, whether you want a specific breed or a mutt, it doesnt matter, but some sort of control needs to be put in place to stop so many unwanted dogs being bred in the first place.
GGrrr rant over now, we all love dogs on here it seems, we shouldnt be having a go at each other just because we all like something different! I personally dont want a short haired dog and I like bigger types, but I will still cuddle anything who wants to give me a big slobbery licky cuddle :dog:
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I have followed this thread with interest and wasn't going to throw my two-pennorth into the ring but, Berkshire Boy, how many of the K.C. commitee have you met?
Alvic, I have kept show Greyhounds for a few number of years and can tell you they were never originally bred to race, but for hunting, much as a Deerhound was and only when people started racing them were they scaled down to be "nippier" and quicker on the turn. I like both types but would like to see more legislation in breeding racers (but that's another discussion!)
My girls wouldn't win a race, granted, but they would hunt all day AND come back with something for the pot!
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On a lighter note :D I have a pug bitch in full season and a whippet stud dog who KNOWS IT!!! Should I breed them what would I call the pups? Whuggets, Pippets? And who will part with, say, £800 a pup :o :o
(Seriously, some folk would!)
And, talking of indiscriminate breeding, I know of someone who bought a breed of toy dog, had her mated, kept two pups, a dog and a bitch, then mated both bitches, the dog pup to his mother and sister every time they came into season and sold the pups, obviously not K.C. registered for £600 each.
This is not against the law as neither is anyone letting their bitch out to breed indiscriminately with whatever dog comes along, but it is ill-advised and, unfortunately the K.C. have no jurisdiction here.