[sabrina]

Have been keeping an eye on our local gumtree adds. There are now more cross bred puppies for sale than pure bred. Price varies from £300- £400. why have people become so stupid. Welfare has gone out the window and how many of these so call designer breeds will live long healthy lives. One of my friends has bought a mini pug !!! To me it looks like the runt of a littler but price £1000 and she thinks she has got a bargin. Neither dog or bitch have had vet checks so goodness knows what pups will end up with. Time all dogs bred had to been done with a reg. breeder to put a stop to this money making group of people. Makes me sick   

[doganjo]

I have a friend who has bred a litter of labradoodles.  Both parents have had their respective health checks - she has the Lab Mum and she has a low hip score, and has her elbows x-rayed, and eyes checked every two years as required.  Her pal has the poodle sire and he has had the same. They are now 5 months old and she has reduced the price from £700 gradually down to £350, and as she still has 5 left out of the six she is at the stage of taking any offers just so they can have a home.  She is very conscientious and anyone who calls saying they have an allergy and want a LD she asks them to sit in their car with a  puppy for half an hour and if they have any reaction they don't get a pup.  That's probably why she still has them.  Hopefully another friend of mine is going to have one as they will be ideal shooting companions.

Here is the KC list if anyone wants to check what is necessary
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/download/1100/abshealthreqs.pdf

[SallyintNorth]

You know I have kept schtum up to now out of respect for the people on here who are into their pedigree pooches.

I'm pulling my punches even so, but I really do have to take issue with the idea that crossbreed or mongrel dogs are bound to be unhealthy.

Veterinary Medicine and Genetics both would have it that crossing two breeds would give you the ultimate healthy pooch, the F1 hybrid, good for hybrid vigour.  According to my vet when I was researching options for a friend, it is rare to get the same kind of inherited problems in first cross animals that are found in the parent's breeds - although he did say it would make sense to not cross a breed which, for instance, has a high incidence of hip dysplasia with another which also has a high incidence of the same problem.

I absolutely applaud all the registered breeders who take a great deal of care to ensure that the pedigree dogs they breed and sell have as low an incidence of their breed's particular problems as is possible - but the point is, these tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.

I have had and have known well pedigree pooches, crossbreds and mongrels, dogs from working and field champion strains and some from show strains, rescues and waifs, surplus farm collies - you name it.  All have been lovely dogs, some have had problems, some with health and a few with temperament.  For the most part, the crosses and mongrels have had less problems and lived longer than pedigrees of the same body type.  A vet once told me that the usual 'one human year equates to seven dog years' applies to large pedigree dogs, that with mongrels and some smaller breeds it is more like one for five.

Me, I like to live and let live.  If some people prefer pedigrees, that's fine with me.  But I don't like being preached at and I will stand up for any underdog.  Some of the very best dogs I have known have been crossbreeds and mongrels, several of them rescues.   I have no issue with someone breeding a litter of nice family pet dogs from known but unregistered parents and taking care to make sure the pups go to good homes.  I do dislike breeding for pure profit, whether it's pedigrees, 'designer crossbreeds' or bitzers. 

[Sandy]

Sally, I do agree, I have had a few cross 57 breeds over the years as well as pedigrees, I would still have some but no more room for more dogs as we breed as a hobby, we have Labs, I just think thier temp etc suits us and its been so nice to be in contact with the new families that now own one of our pups. We do make some money and that often is spent back on the pups, the last lot bought a better more dog friendly realy cheap car but we also love having the pups and do worship our pack of dogs!!!!!

People all have thier tastes and needs in dogs and as long as some one wants an important addition to thier family, its great.

[knightquest]

You know I have kept schtum up to now out of respect for the people on here who are into their pedigree pooches.

I'm pulling my punches even so, but I really do have to take issue with the idea that crossbreed or mongrel dogs are bound to be unhealthy.

Veterinary Medicine and Genetics both would have it that crossing two breeds would give you the ultimate healthy pooch, the F1 hybrid, good for hybrid vigour.  According to my vet when I was researching options for a friend, it is rare to get the same kind of inherited problems in first cross animals that are found in the parent's breeds - although he did say it would make sense to not cross a breed which, for instance, has a high incidence of hip dysplasia with another which also has a high incidence of the same problem.

I absolutely applaud all the registered breeders who take a great deal of care to ensure that the pedigree dogs they breed and sell have as low an incidence of their breed's particular problems as is possible - but the point is, these tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.

I have had and have known well pedigree pooches, crossbreds and mongrels, dogs from working and field champion strains and some from show strains, rescues and waifs, surplus farm collies - you name it.  All have been lovely dogs, some have had problems, some with health and a few with temperament.  For the most part, the crosses and mongrels have had less problems and lived longer than pedigrees of the same body type.  A vet once told me that the usual 'one human year equates to seven dog years' applies to large pedigree dogs, that with mongrels and some smaller breeds it is more like one for five.

Me, I like to live and let live.  If some people prefer pedigrees, that's fine with me.  But I don't like being preached at and I will stand up for any underdog.  Some of the very best dogs I have known have been crossbreeds and mongrels, several of them rescues.   I have no issue with someone breeding a litter of nice family pet dogs from known but unregistered parents and taking care to make sure the pups go to good homes.  I do dislike breeding for pure profit, whether it's pedigrees, 'designer crossbreeds' or bitzers. 

What a great post!

Ian

[doganjo]

hese tests and so on are less necessary, even unnecessary, when the animals being bred from are not pedigrees and do not have that in their genetic makeup which comes from generations of selecting on an often narrow range of specific characteristics.

What absolute rubbish!  If you study genetics you will understand that Mother Nature is the one who has the upper hand here and if a breeder DOESN'T do any health checks then that is when MN will put the boot in.  ANY responsible breeder, whether of pedigree, cross breed or mongrel, should be checking the health of any breeding stock they intend to breed with.  And that goes for ALL animals not just dogs!

[Collie26]

I have to agree with sally on this one, sometimes respectible breeders sit on their high horse and saw that this that and the other and they are the worst offenders. How many breeders are there that breed a litter and over price their dogs and never sell them but a family litter might not be all kc reg ect and sell all the pups for much less. Ive read articles where so called breeders say laeve breeding to people who know what they are doing. What is wrong with a person breeding a litter without health checks. And possibly with another breed but knows that they will be able to find loving homes for them??

How many years have people been breeding dogs without health checks annie??? More than they have i expect?? How many great dogs that live till 20 dont have health checks???

And i too hate to see dogs kile jackawaw (whatever that is) labradoodles and they are still mongrels at trhe end of the day and you cannot change that.

People need to relax about daft health checks, take collies most farmers(expecially the ones round here) wouldnt dream of taking both parent to the vets pay fees and then do whatever else. They just let mother nature get on with it and 99.9% of the time she looks after life.

I think breeders are the worse than people breeding the one litter for family pets whether pedegree or not. Because how many litters with a breeders bitch have??

[Fronhaul]

Fact - healthy parents are more likely to have healthy pups and it doesn't matter a hoot whether they are pedigree or crossbred.

But cross a lab with a poor hip score with a poodle with a tendency to say gastric torsion and you risk the worst of both worlds.  That is why I am sick and tired of so called designer dogs.  And that is where the myth that crossbreeds are healthier falls down.  I am sorry but I do not accept that a genuine Heinz 57 is the same as the so called designer dogs.  I happen to have two beautifully bred pointers with great hip scores but I have them because I love the pointer attributes.  There are some absolutely gorgeous labradoodles around.  But there are also some absolute horrors around with severe health problems and severe temperament problems.

And in answer to your question Collie26 most of the breeders of working dogs I know will limit their bitches to around 2 litters over their lifetimes. 

[doganjo]

Fact - healthy parents are more likely to have healthy pups and it doesn't matter a hoot whether they are pedigree or crossbred.

But cross a lab with a poor hip score with a poodle with a tendency to say gastric torsion and you risk the worst of both worlds.  That is why I am sick and tired of so called designer dogs.  And that is where the myth that crossbreeds are healthier falls down.  I am sorry but I do not accept that a genuine Heinz 57 is the same as the so called designer dogs.  I happen to have two beautifully bred pointers with great hip scores but I have them because I love the pointer attributes.  There are some absolutely gorgeous labradoodles around.  But there are also some absolute horrors around with severe health problems and severe temperament problems.

And in answer to your question Collie26 most of the breeders of working dogs I know will limit their bitches to around 2 litters over their lifetimes. 

Heartily agree!  I have a fairly little known breed and almost every one of our pups is sold before it is born - not just me, other people in our breed too - not only that, all our dogs are pets, as well as working and show dogs.  I have been in the Dog World for nigh on 50 years and the number of breeders I've known, over that period of time, who take more than 3 litters from any bitch I could probably count on two hands.  Not only that the majority of them will only breed from healthy parents - that does not necessarily mean expensive tests - many checks can be done by a simple DNA test these days - total cost per dog £90  That is less than one sixth of the price of one of my puppies!  It is not worth the hassle not doing these tests nowadays as people are very ready to sue if they get a puppy with a hereditary disease. and there are now lawyers out there ready to take on cases on a NWNF basis.
This is the problem - too many people hear the word 'breeder' and think immediately 'puppy farmer'  It is NOT the same!

[sabrina]

I am not against the Heinz 57 type pup, had a few over the years. What I am getting at is the people who are doing this just because there is money to be made without any care or long term thought to what they are breeding. One add on gumtree last week was a pup free to good home, lab cross with kidney problems that needed long term medication. The owners bought the pup and then found out it had problems. Most breeds of dogs were cross bred to get our pedigree animals but at least its done with health checks as Annie says. An add that starts of by saying teacup size to me is not about health but money and there are always people who will pay for what they think is different. Out of the labaradoodles that I used to get in my class only one did not cast hair and 2 were lovely family pets the rest were nutters to be quite frank and the owners could not cope.

[Roxy]

my neighbour has a labradoodle.  As a pup he reminded me of an hyperactive child.  His owner had him at dog training etc, but it did not change him.  Numerous times he got in my field and chased the hens, and ignored the owner when she called him off.  She used to have a whistle in her mouth, and do signals with her hands when out with him .....all this achieved was a very red faced  woman who was puffed out blowing on her whistle, and the dog running riot!!

To give him credit, now he is older, he is much improved (but not to be trusted with livestock still!)

[Berkshire Boy]

The worst culprits are the supposedly respectable breeders, they don't do it for the money - come on get real. Why do so many pedigree dogs have health problems, because of all the inbreeding and fiddling with the breed standard. Bulldogs that can't breath properly etc etc etc.
Not everyone can afford to spend £1000 on a dog so why deny people the chance to own a cross breed at a reasonable price. I have a Lab that gets caught by the local collie every now and then and I sell the pups for £150 which I think is reasonable and am in contact with most of the people who have bought one, why is this wrong.

[doganjo]

The worst culprits are the supposedly respectable breeders, they don't do it for the money - come on get real. Why do so many pedigree dogs have health problems, because of all the inbreeding and fiddling with the breed standard. Bulldogs that can't breath properly etc etc etc.
Not everyone can afford to spend £1000 on a dog so why deny people the chance to own a cross breed at a reasonable price. I have a Lab that gets caught by the local collie every now and then and I sell the pups for £150 which I think is reasonable and am in contact with most of the people who have bought one, why is this wrong.

You are soooo behind the times and insular, it's not real!  The Kennel Club have recently (in the last 2 years) brought in significant changes to regulations for breeding, including health recommendations for each breed, which I posted on here. They are now aiming to limit the age of a bitch to 6 years for last registering of litters, and to a maximum of 3 litters.  ALL breeders should aim to breed ONLY healthy pups and that includes you!  To allow your bitch to run about loose when she is in season and get caught by a stray male which is also not looked after properly will only increase the antagonism to dogs which is bad enough as it is.  The anti dog brigade have a very loud voice in Parliament and will try to have ever more and more restrictions placed on dog owners.  You and others who hide their heads in the sand are assisting them to do this by breeding indiscriminately and without health checks.

[Berkshire Boy]

Oh yes the kennel club, could you wish to find a more irresponsible,hypercritical, money orientated organisation. If they are so wonderful how come so many businesses and organisations distance themselves. I don't think I am the outdated insular one.

[doganjo]

Oh yes the kennel club, could you wish to find a more irresponsible,hypercritical, money orientated organisation. If they are so wonderful how come so many businesses and organisations distance themselves. I don't think I am the outdated insular one.

Fine, carry on selling your unhealthy mongrels then, and wait to be sued one day.  I'll just stick with the organisation that does most to protect dogs in the UK, or rather the ONLY one that does.