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Author Topic: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?  (Read 1084 times)

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2020, 12:43:05 pm »
For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e
I disagree!!!

By far teh most important commadn is STOP - right where you are, no questions.

THEN and only then should you recall - when it is safe for the dog to do so.

A friend of mine had a pup from me, they lived near a railway line, the dog had a 100% recall as it was used with birds of prey.  Heidi was out for a walk with 2 year old Copper one day and she ran off to hunt, Heidi saw her at the other side of the railway line and immediately whistled recall. Copper immediately started to run back - just as the Inverness to London train came along - she carried her beloved dying dog 3 miles to her car and Copper died in her arms.
So STOP command is first - 100%  It can be a life saver

Thank you Doganjo, that is genuinely helpful.  A similar thing happened in our village where someone, like us, has the road going through the middle of his land. After bringing his flock across, he failed to notice his favourite collie was still on the other side when he called it. The dog was killed in front of his eyes - horrific.
I had forgotten that whilst training our new dogs but I'll remember it now  :thumbsup:
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2020, 03:38:32 pm »
For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e
I disagree!!!

By far teh most important commadn is STOP - right where you are, no questions.

THEN and only then should you recall - when it is safe for the dog to do so.

A friend of mine had a pup from me, they lived near a railway line, the dog had a 100% recall as it was used with birds of prey.  Heidi was out for a walk with 2 year old Copper one day and she ran off to hunt, Heidi saw her at the other side of the railway line and immediately whistled recall. Copper immediately started to run back - just as the Inverness to London train came along - she carried her beloved dying dog 3 miles to her car and Copper died in her arms.
So STOP command is first - 100%  It can be a life saver

Thank you Doganjo, that is genuinely helpful.  A similar thing happened in our village where someone, like us, has the road going through the middle of his land. After bringing his flock across, he failed to notice his favourite collie was still on the other side when he called it. The dog was killed in front of his eyes - horrific.
I had forgotten that whilst training our new dogs but I'll remember it now  :thumbsup:

Next question - how do you teach a dog to stop when it's off the lead? Do you start when it's walking beside you on a lead?
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2020, 04:20:08 pm »
Once they can sit using a verbal command. I introduce the whistle. So, as they sit from the verbal command I blow a single blast of the whistle as their bottom is touching the floor.  A young dog gets it in no time at all and then you can drop the verbal command and just blow the whistle. This is with the dog on lead and heeling. Then I might run and blow the whistle and hope that the dog responds and sits quickly.


Then I would blow the whistle as the dog is playing in the garden for example but when they are nearby and not particularly distracted by anything. Hopefully the dog stops and looks round. If it doesn't sit you could use the verbal command too. Then I say stay and walk to them and praise or give a treat. I'd expect them to stay there until told to 'play' or whatever command you use that means off you go. Then increase the time before they are allowed to play. Or when they have mastered this part you could give a recall command. Or give the play command from wherever you were when you blew the whistle. Mix it up then so the dog doesn't know exactly what you will ask it to do from this stop signal. Then it's attention is on you. It's thinking ok what now.


in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #48 on: June 29, 2020, 05:23:53 pm »
Then with a gundog you might blow the stop whistle and dog sits. It doesn't move as it's waiting for a command. Then throw a ball to its right and it stays until a hand signal is given for it to fetch. The dog has already mastered steadiness to the fall at this point. In this way stopping to the whistle becomes fun because dog relates stopping to something fun but of course its still under control.


Then gradually increase the distance between you and dog when you blow that whistle. Further away the dog is the more likely he is to ignore you.


You can sit them. Walk away. Call your dog to you and when they are fairly close blow the stop whistle. They sit you walk to them and praise. Then gradually blow the whistle when the dog is further from you. Mine quickly learn this so don't do it too much as they start coming back slowly waiting for the whistle! Ha!


With gundogs the stop whistle is used when the dog is looking for an unseen dummy/bird and might need help finding it from its handler. It stops and looks to the handler who gives a hand direction. You don't really want them to sit as they get to know the lesson just to stop quickly and look to you for a command.


Now, what do you do if your dog has gone through the many steps of teaching the stop whistle, understands it, has shown that they understand it but chooses to ignore it?????????  I've never known a dog that wouldn't choose on occasion to ignore it eg. Mmmmm, stop or chase the rabbit, sooner run after that dog and play.
This is when I might gently reprimand a dog while in the act of ignoring that stop whistle. In the long term I see it as a positive. Dog can enjoy retrieving that wouldn't be possible if it wasn't trained to that whistle and for safety it knows not to ignore that whistle.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
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Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #49 on: June 29, 2020, 06:05:48 pm »
Quote
Next question - how do you teach a dog to stop when it's off the lead? Do you start when it's walking beside you on a lead?
Exactly as #inthehills says
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #50 on: June 29, 2020, 07:21:37 pm »
Working on the later stages of stop whistle with my young dog, Doganjo ........ What have I missed??????? :eyelashes:  Any tips?

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #51 on: June 29, 2020, 09:28:58 pm »
I just always teach the sit to whistle starting at my side, then on the lead in the garden, then off the lead in the garden, then on the lead in a large but enclosed area, then off the lead in same area, then on the lead in the big wide world, then on a longer lead, and then a longer one, then on a trailing lead, then I trust them - any slip from 100% and they go back a step. No second chances, no relaxation, there wouldn't be if there was a car coming.

That said, Missy has been a trial for me, mainly because I became ill soon after I got her so it's been more difficult.  Not her fault.  But her recall is pretty good, as is her turn, so I could turn her rather than recall if necessary.  She's just so blooming fast.  :'( :'( :'(
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #52 on: June 29, 2020, 11:29:30 pm »
Thank you for that @in the hills .  I get the gist of the method and can pick that out, but I shan't be using a whistle, just verbal commands.  The dogs are still a bit nervous from their year in the rescue and sudden sounds frighten them. Also, when I most needed it I would be bound not to have a whistle with me.  These are not working dogs, just old ladies living out their lives who need to be safe.  They don't go far from us and our land is not so huge they would ever be out of earshot.  Away from home they will be on retractable leads.  All I need is to be able to stop them in their tracks if they get close to machinery or make a mistake around the livestock, or someone leaves a gate open onto the road.
I have always used an oral whistle for recall with all my dogs, so they are learning that too.
It's day 5 since we got the girls and we are all making excellent progress.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #53 on: June 30, 2020, 07:39:42 am »
In those situations maybe a simple 'no' command would suffice, FW.




Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #54 on: June 30, 2020, 01:52:12 pm »
In those situations maybe a simple 'no' command would suffice, FW.

Wouldn't that be confusing ? All our previous dogs have always had the 'no' command, but used differently to 'wait' or 'wait there'.  I think 'stop' is different yet again and is a bit like the driving test - when the examiner says 'stop' he means an emergency stop and not a hover-what-shall-I-do-next? - there's a finality to 'stop' and I can think of a couple of situations where we would find it useful, so we shall proceed with that.  The girls are both bright, as shown by how quickly they are adapting to their new lives  :thumbsup: so they'll get it.
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #55 on: June 30, 2020, 03:01:30 pm »
Whatever suits you and your crew, FW.


I was just thinking that the stop command takes a while to teach thoroughly and though it is subtly different the 'no' command may already be known to your dogs or will be taught by you in lots of situations indoors and out. And will probably give much the same response .....to stop and look at you and give time for a 'come' or 'stay' command depending on circumstance.


I think my natural response if my dog was heading towards stock or an open gate would be 'no'.


You're probably saying 'no' when your dogs take any interest in your stock ..... probably on lead I guess at the moment. But when off lead you can still shout 'no' if they show interest and same at the open gate. Dig should still stop and look at you thinking it's doing something wrong. And 'no' is a very quick word to shout out in an emergency. Probably easier than stop.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #56 on: June 30, 2020, 03:07:38 pm »
Stop whistle is different for a working dog because you wouldn't shout 'no' when they were hunting for a retrieve because it is just a stop and look at me you want.


Shouting 'no' would be confusing for them as it usually means you're about to do something that I don't want you to do. They might be running in the wrong direction but they aren't actually doing something that needs a 'no' command.


Maybe for a pet dog the 'no' command is easier and all that is needed in 99% of situations.


I don't know ..... but have fun!

arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #57 on: June 30, 2020, 03:46:28 pm »
"Stop" - um yeah, I hadn't thought about that 'til now for my pet dogs.  Noting the good posts, I'm gonna have to do some new training.  For my pets, could be a distanced "Lie down", but I think I will go see what I can do with "Stop". 

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
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Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #58 on: June 30, 2020, 04:04:36 pm »
Single word STAY is what i teach when within earshot.  That is taught exactly the same way as with a whistle.

Always start training this command with the dog beside you on a lead.  Sit the dog, give the command STAY and take one step away, return immediately so as the dog doen't get the chance to break from the command - then gradually increase the length of time. 

When that is robust you move onto the next stage of stepping away further - to the end of the lead and start off with one second and build up the length of time.

It's done slowly and one step at a time so that the dog is not confused and feels secure.  Never do a recall from a STAY
HTH
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #59 on: June 30, 2020, 04:22:38 pm »
Yes, Doganjo, that's true.


For a non working dog a really good stay command would also be a good substitute for the stop whistle/command. When you think about it that is all you want the non working dog to do so teaching a separate stop command might not be worthwhile.

 

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