Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?  (Read 989 times)

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2020, 08:53:28 pm »
So many times people say they don't reprimand bad behaviour after it has happened because it confuses the dog. Whereas I think the opposite of that. For example, your dog runs off and won't come back immediately you call it. When it does you don't want to punish it because you don't want it to think you punished it for returning.  So, it learns that it can come back when it wants and then it adds chasing sheep into the equation and now it has done something really bad and do you still not reprimand because it still came back? Obviously you have to teach recall first but if a dog that has learnt recall decides to ignore it until it is ready to return I would reprimand that behaviour. I would use my voice and my stance, I would put it on the lead and I would take it home and ignore it during that process. I don't have to be harsh. The punishment is that the dog no longer feels welcome in the pack because it's behaviour was unacceptable and being part of the pack is really important to a pack animal.


If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

That's how I used to do it.  And I now believe that all I taught those dogs was that I would sometimes randomly be cross.  :'(


When puppies are reprimanded by their dam they learn a lesson and I'm sure that the lesson wasn't that randomly their mother is cross  :thinking: 




SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2020, 08:55:53 pm »
Yessss!!! 

(Although why such educated and erudite dogs dor't just simply elucidate their requests, I'm not sure.  :-J  :roflanim:)

Another of the many, many mistakes I've made along the way was being too obsessed with verbal commands, and getting frustrated if the dog was anticipating the command.  Of course, to the dog, it's all communication, so if our body language is signalling that we are about to do something, it's actually being an obedient dog to make the response as soon as it interprets the signals.  (And then I would tell it off, and make it "Wait!"  :coat:  Oh, there will be ssssssoooooo many apologies to make when I get over rainbow bridge....)

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2020, 08:57:56 pm »
So many times people say they don't reprimand bad behaviour after it has happened because it confuses the dog. Whereas I think the opposite of that. For example, your dog runs off and won't come back immediately you call it. When it does you don't want to punish it because you don't want it to think you punished it for returning.  So, it learns that it can come back when it wants and then it adds chasing sheep into the equation and now it has done something really bad and do you still not reprimand because it still came back? Obviously you have to teach recall first but if a dog that has learnt recall decides to ignore it until it is ready to return I would reprimand that behaviour. I would use my voice and my stance, I would put it on the lead and I would take it home and ignore it during that process. I don't have to be harsh. The punishment is that the dog no longer feels welcome in the pack because it's behaviour was unacceptable and being part of the pack is really important to a pack animal.


If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

That's how I used to do it.  And I now believe that all I taught those dogs was that I would sometimes randomly be cross.  :'(


When puppies are reprimanded by their dam they learn a lesson and I'm sure that the lesson wasn't that randomly their mother is cross  :thinking:

Oh, absolutely.  But the adult dogs reprimand the pup as it does the unwanted behaviour, not some time afterwards.

Giving them a clear indication that this is not a good thing while they are doing it is a completely different scenario to being cross with them after they come back to you, or after you return home.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2020, 09:00:10 pm »
For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e


I completely agree about recall being an absolute must.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2020, 09:01:03 pm »

I find the whole study of non-verbal communication, especially between species, to be fascinating.

Yes indeed!  Shall we do it here, or have another thread?  And if so, where???
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2020, 09:25:18 pm »
I'm for a good old fashioned mixture of both ......
I try to be as positive as possible, sometimes I use treats, frequently I use verbal and physical praise but occasionally I reprimand my dogs.
I would love to be able to train completely using positive methods but I'm not sure that it is possible to be positive all of the time.
Mine are working line labs and they are clever and eager to please in general. I try to teach a lesson well ..... in fact to over teach it. I don't reprimand until I'm sure that the dog knows the lesson and understands what it should be doing.  However, if the dog then chooses to ignore me then I would reprimand.
I think it also depends on the level of obedience you want and expect from your dog and also on the temperament of your dog.


arobwk

  • Joined Nov 2015
  • Kernow. Some say it's in England !
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2020, 09:46:05 pm »
Let's be clear here:  if you catch your dog doing something you do not find acceptable, you admonish them immediately right (?), but if you find your dog has done something you do not find acceptable AND you missed the event, how do you make them connect your annoyance directly to something they've done in your absence?  You can't! 
That said, I swear mine can make a connection between a past event they were admonished for and a similar more recent event I missed, but show non-directed annoyance about.  I can often tell the guilty party (!!), but I still avoid telling them off directly if I actually missed the event.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:35:49 pm by arobwk »

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2020, 10:03:39 pm »
So many times people say they don't reprimand bad behaviour after it has happened because it confuses the dog. Whereas I think the opposite of that. For example, your dog runs off and won't come back immediately you call it. When it does you don't want to punish it because you don't want it to think you punished it for returning.  So, it learns that it can come back when it wants and then it adds chasing sheep into the equation and now it has done something really bad and do you still not reprimand because it still came back? Obviously you have to teach recall first but if a dog that has learnt recall decides to ignore it until it is ready to return I would reprimand that behaviour. I would use my voice and my stance, I would put it on the lead and I would take it home and ignore it during that process. I don't have to be harsh. The punishment is that the dog no longer feels welcome in the pack because it's behaviour was unacceptable and being part of the pack is really important to a pack animal.


If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

That's how I used to do it.  And I now believe that all I taught those dogs was that I would sometimes randomly be cross.  :'(


When puppies are reprimanded by their dam they learn a lesson and I'm sure that the lesson wasn't that randomly their mother is cross  :thinking:

Oh, absolutely.  But the adult dogs reprimand the pup as it does the unwanted behaviour, not some time afterwards.

Giving them a clear indication that this is not a good thing while they are doing it is a completely different scenario to being cross with them after they come back to you, or after you return home.


Puppies live in a fairly contained environment and their everyday life, thought processes and experiences are simple. As their environment and training progresses their lives become more complex. They are in my opinion able to process that today something happened on a walk which was unacceptable to their pack leader not their hooman. It didn't result in a physical punishment or even a shout but a clear push to the outside of the pack which made them feel unsafe for a while. Instead of the usual walk they were taken home and given time out. And your next outing you have to reinforce the positive of a good recall situation.

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2020, 10:16:37 pm »
Yes, catch them in the act.
Sometimes I put mine in a position whereby it is possible to 'catch them in the act'. Eg. I know that a dog knows and can do a good recall. And recall can be at many different levels, right from a puppy who is just beginning to come back when called in the garden when there are no distractions to an older dog with a reliable recall in all situations. If my dog is at a good level in recall teaching.....knows and can recall reliably ....but then starts to ignore me I would perhaps go back a lesson or two to check and consolidate their learning. But then if I was sure that they understood then I would recall when they were near to me and occupied (sniffing in the hedge etc). If they ignored then I could get to them and reprimand while they were ignoring the reprimand rather than once they eventually returned.


But arobwk I agree that mine definitely know when they have done something that they shouldn't have done ......that guilty look when you walk in the room ....puppy dog eyes or what?!!!!!!! And I would reprimand if I walked in the room and found that they had taken something off the kitchen counter for example. I think it depends what they've done and if you know that they know they've done something wrong. Somethings they wouldn't connect but mine would understand a late reprimand for certain things.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2020, 10:34:19 pm »
Let's be clear here:  if you catch your dog doing something you do not find acceptable, you admonish them immediately right (?), but if you find your dog has done something you do not find acceptable AND you missed the event, how do you make them connect your annoyance directly to something they've done in the past?  You can't! 
That said, I swear mine can make a connection between a past event they were admonished for and a more recent event I missed, but show non-directed annoyance about.  I can often tell the guilty party !! - but I still avoid telling them off IF I actually missed the event.


So they eat the sausage you left defrosting in the kitchen when you were doing the garden and you left the kitchen door open. You don't discover this for hours. Do you ignore that? Would you ignore it if they pinched it off your plate whilst you turned your back momentarily? You didn't see either happen?


Personally. I think both is unacceptable and the rule is dog food is provided in the dog dish and I think a dog is perfectly capable of processing that they shouldn't have done that and that they have received admonishment for it.  The empty plate and location is the connection. It would be no good going into the garden and telling them off.



harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2020, 11:02:24 pm »
Yes, catch them in the act.
Sometimes I put mine in a position whereby it is possible to 'catch them in the act'. Eg. I know that a dog knows and can do a good recall. And recall can be at many different levels, right from a puppy who is just beginning to come back when called in the garden when there are no distractions to an older dog with a reliable recall in all situations. If my dog is at a good level in recall teaching.....knows and can recall reliably ....but then starts to ignore me I would perhaps go back a lesson or two to check and consolidate their learning. But then if I was sure that they understood then I would recall when they were near to me and occupied (sniffing in the hedge etc). If they ignored then I could get to them and reprimand while they were ignoring the reprimand rather than once they eventually returned.


But arobwk I agree that mine definitely know when they have done something that they shouldn't have done ......that guilty look when you walk in the room ....puppy dog eyes or what?!!!!!!! And I would reprimand if I walked in the room and found that they had taken something off the kitchen counter for example. I think it depends what they've done and if you know that they know they've done something wrong. Somethings they wouldn't connect but mine would understand a late reprimand for certain things.


Have you lost sausage too?  ;D


Generally speaking dogs learn to do things that make us happy. If we are happy they get to be part of a pack and packs provide what they need, protection and food. Behaviour that makes us unhappy pushes them out of the pack and that makes them feel vulnerable. Dogs have used their intelligence and versatility to infiltrate our packs over a number of centuries demonstrating a fair amount of understanding about what makes us tick. They've been training us all that time  :thinking:


I agree with you in the hills about sometimes having to go back with your lessons to check and consolidate.

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2020, 11:28:23 pm »
Yessss!!! 

(Although why such educated and erudite dogs dor't just simply elucidate their requests, I'm not sure.  :-J :roflanim: )

Another of the many, many mistakes I've made along the way was being too obsessed with verbal commands, and getting frustrated if the dog was anticipating the command.  Of course, to the dog, it's all communication, so if our body language is signalling that we are about to do something, it's actually being an obedient dog to make the response as soon as it interprets the signals.  (And then I would tell it off, and make it "Wait!"  :coat:  Oh, there will be ssssssoooooo many apologies to make when I get over rainbow bridge....)

When you finally get to wherever you're heading Sally, you will, according to Terry Pratchett, discover that all the dogs have been led off by The Death of Dogs to somewhere filled with lamp posts, tennis balls, comfy human beds and dogs with smelly bottoms  :innocent: so say your sorries now  :D
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

Fleecewife

  • Joined May 2010
  • South Lanarkshire
    • Wester Gladstone Hebridean Sheep
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2020, 11:38:33 pm »

I find the whole study of non-verbal communication, especially between species, to be fascinating.

Yes indeed!  Shall we do it here, or have another thread?  And if so, where???

Can we delay it a week or so til this is finished?  The coffee lounge would be the best place for everyone to see it, do you think?
www.scothebs.co.uk

Do something today that your future self will thank you for - plant a tree

Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus - let sleeping dragons lie

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #28 on: June 29, 2020, 12:19:54 am »
I'm not going to belabour the point as we are clearly not going to all agree on this one.

But I'll just finish by saying that that "guilty look" is, in my opinion and that of many modern dog behaviourists, fear at the anticipated random anger which they have learned can happen on the humans' return, and not at all linked to awareness of the deed they did some minutes or hours ago.  Human comes in, sees ripped cushion / empty plate / whatever.  Human body language alerts dog that human is not happy.  Dog has learned that this often precedes a reprimand, so dog's body language goes fear / submission / appeasment.  Human thinks dog is guilty and knows it, so interprets fear / submission / appeasment body language as guilt.


So they eat the sausage you left defrosting in the kitchen when you were doing the garden and you left the kitchen door open. You don't discover this for hours. Do you ignore that?

Yes, 100%, because I cannot punish the dog for that.  I can only punish the dog randomly and make it feel insecure, and furthermore, increase its anxiety when I leave it in anticipation of random punishments on my return.


Would you ignore it if they pinched it off your plate whilst you turned your back momentarily?

Same answer.

If I want to stop the dog pinching my sausages, the best way is to set it up to catch it about to do it, and make the sausages scary so that it builds an association of "oooh, not nice, don't want them after all" when it looks at sausages that aren't in its bowl (or being given to it by your hand if you like doing that.)  The beauty of this is it is not dependant on you being present for a plate of sausages to be unpleasant and the dog walk away from them.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2020, 08:27:35 am »
Mmmmm, but I would guarantee that if I wasn't in the room and my dog was in the act of stealing those sausages they would be looking around sheepishly to check that I wasn't around because they would know and understand that what they were about to do was unacceptable.
If I returned in 5 hours then I think that they might not make an association but 10 minutes later they would. They would remember what they had done 10 minutes before and already have been taught that it was unacceptable.
I also think it depends on how you train your dog, the relationship that you have with your dog and what you mean by a reprimand. Surely a good trainer doesn't have a dog that is 'fearful' or overly 'submissive'. I would be very concerned if me showing displeasure at an action meant that the dog then suffered anxiety worrying about my return home or into the room on the next occasion. I would have failed.
I know a lot of excellent/top trainers of gundogs and collies. They do reprimand their dogs and they also praise their dogs. The reprimand and the praise is quiet and controlled. The lessons are taught in tiny positive steps, the dog understands, is confident and understands and there is TRUST between dog and handler. If any reprimand is too harsh, not matched to the temperament of the dog or not understood by the dog then it is a problem. It will break down trust, confuse and worry the dog and hinder training.
I think that the reprimand given is a small part of a much bigger picture and if given correctly is not a big negative. And maybe there lies the problem if people get that wrong.




 

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