Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?  (Read 981 times)

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2020, 08:41:59 am »
Mmmmm, but I would guarantee that if I wasn't in the room and my dog was in the act of stealing those sausages they would be looking around sheepishly to check that I wasn't around because they would know and understand that what they were about to do was unacceptable.
If I returned in 5 hours then I think that they might not make an association but 10 minutes later they would. They would remember what they had done 10 minutes before and already have been taught that it was unacceptable.
I also think it depends on how you train your dog, the relationship that you have with your dog and what you mean by a reprimand. Surely a good trainer doesn't have a dog that is 'fearful' or overly 'submissive'. I would be very concerned if me showing displeasure at an action meant that the dog then suffered anxiety worrying about my return home or into the room on the next occasion. I would have failed.
I know a lot of excellent/top trainers of gundogs and collies. They do reprimand their dogs and they also praise their dogs. The reprimand and the praise is quiet and controlled. The lessons are taught in tiny positive steps, the dog understands, is confident and understands and there is TRUST between dog and handler. If any reprimand is too harsh, not matched to the temperament of the dog or not understood by the dog then it is a problem. It will break down trust, confuse and worry the dog and hinder training.
I think that the reprimand given is a small part of a much bigger picture and if given correctly is not a big negative. And maybe there lies the problem if people get that wrong.


Completely agree. Also dogs move on and quickly. They want to be excepted back into their comfortable, safe place.


I know trainers who are harsher than I would ever be and their dogs are happy, good workers without issues.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2020, 08:59:51 am »
When you see a professional trainer reprimand their dog, it will be for something the dog is doing right there and then, and the dog will be in no doubt about why it is being reprimanded.  So that is just the same as the dam telling the pup off, and won't erode trust or security or engender fear.

What you won't see that professional trainer do is reprimand the dog "for" something the dog did some time ago.  And I have quoted that "for" because in that circumstance, the human will understand the "for" but the dog will not.  All the dog will know is that sometimes, out of the blue, it will be reprimanded and it will have no idea why.  So those reprimands erode security and engender fear.

Dogs are creatures of immediacy.  They work on associations : deed -> reaction.  They do not think, "Hmm, not sure why that has just happened.  Wonder what I might have done in the last 60 minutes that might be the reason I am being shouted at now.  Let me think... now, working backwards from now : greeted hooman, heard hooman come in door, heard hooman car arrive, walked around checking sniffs, licked butt, had a big stretch and roll, had a snooze, made my bed forty gaziiliion times, walked around checking sniffs, had a woof at the cat next door through the window, ...."  And even if they did arrive at "chewed up cushion" an hour ago, they are much, much more likely to associate the reprimand with something much more recent - which will be you coming home.   :'(
« Last Edit: June 29, 2020, 09:06:28 am by SallyintNorth »
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2020, 09:03:02 am »
I don't believe that I'm harsh at all with my dogs but do realise after going to a puppy training class which was an all positive class that some people now seem to disapprove of all reprimand with some passion and wouldn't agree with my way of training.
I find the subject quite interesting and I'm open to any new training methods/tips/thoughts etc.


I've also watched with horror some people who seem to believe they are training in a kind way but are actually constantly correcting and nagging their dogs. No peace for them or their poor dogs.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2020, 09:10:37 am »
I'm not going to belabour the point as we are clearly not going to all agree on this one.

But I'll just finish by saying that that "guilty look" is, in my opinion and that of many modern dog behaviourists, fear at the anticipated random anger which they have learned can happen on the humans' return, and not at all linked to awareness of the deed they did some minutes or hours ago.  Human comes in, sees ripped cushion / empty plate / whatever.  Human body language alerts dog that human is not happy.  Dog has learned that this often precedes a reprimand, so dog's body language goes fear / submission / appeasment.  Human thinks dog is guilty and knows it, so interprets fear / submission / appeasment body language as guilt.


So they eat the sausage you left defrosting in the kitchen when you were doing the garden and you left the kitchen door open. You don't discover this for hours. Do you ignore that?

Yes, 100%, because I cannot punish the dog for that.  I can only punish the dog randomly and make it feel insecure, and furthermore, increase its anxiety when I leave it in anticipation of random punishments on my return.


Would you ignore it if they pinched it off your plate whilst you turned your back momentarily?

Same answer.

If I want to stop the dog pinching my sausages, the best way is to set it up to catch it about to do it, and make the sausages scary so that it builds an association of "oooh, not nice, don't want them after all" when it looks at sausages that aren't in its bowl (or being given to it by your hand if you like doing that.)  The beauty of this is it is not dependant on you being present for a plate of sausages to be unpleasant and the dog walk away from them.


I'll agree we wont agree on this.  :)



in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2020, 09:16:44 am »
Well yes SITN it is all about .....when, why, how and what has gone before.


And of course time scale ..... no good correcting for something that happened yesterday or several hours ago ....... but mine are aware of something they did a few minutes before.


And of course professional trainers aim to not have to reprimand a dog at all by teaching the dog in tiny steps, teaching the same lesson with distractions, in different settings, reading the dogs body language, anticipating when the dog will go wrong and making sure it doesn't and also putting the dog in a position that if it does ignore a command you can correct the dog while in the act.
Professional trainers probably don't use reprimands as much as some pet owners. My dad trained other people's gundogs and he would say that you aimed not to have to reprimand but if you did you would do it in a way that the reprimand counted .... the dog understood what the correction was for and the correction was precise and measured. I remember him telling folk off for reprimanding their dogs usually saying ...... ' it's you and not the dog'!

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2020, 09:19:21 am »
I think the folks who disapprove of any kind of negative reinforcement (even things like shaking a bottle of pebbles when the dog looks at your sausages ;)) are coming, on the one hand, from a similar place as my antipathy to using titbits for training.  It's all about timing; titbits are a wonderful reinforcing aid in skilled hands, but unfortunately a lot of pet handlers simply don't have the skill to make the titbit instant enough.  So they end up reinforcing the wrong behaviours.  I used to see it a lot when I did dog obedience classes with the wonderful ladies in Cricklade 30 years ago; the teacher would demonstrate giving the titbit instantaneously as the dog sat in front of her on its recall, then the hapless pet owner would have a go, and by the time the dog got the titbit it was jumping up her to get at it.  So the behaviour that actually got reinforced would be jumping up! ::)  It's so much easier to get a word of praise delivered at the exact right moment - and you can use it for things that went well remotely too ;)

And the same applies to the timing of negative reinforcement, as I have been trying to explain.  But in this case, some people would argue that it is actually cruel to the dog to be reprimanding it when it doesn't know why, and since getting the timing right is very hard for a lot of people, then if there are ways to train without any negative reinforcement, that is kinder to dogs.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2020, 09:21:00 am »
My dad trained other people's gundogs and he would say that you aimed not to have to reprimand but if you did you would do it in a way that the reprimand counted .... the dog understood what the correction was for and the correction was precise and measured. I remember him telling folk off for reprimanding their dogs usually saying ...... ' it's you and not the dog'!

Oh, this.  So much this. 

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 09:23:40 am »
My dad trained other people's gundogs and he would say that you aimed not to have to reprimand but if you did you would do it in a way that the reprimand counted .... the dog understood what the correction was for and the correction was precise and measured. I remember him telling folk off for reprimanding their dogs usually saying ...... ' it's you and not the dog'!

Oh, this.  So much this.

One of the things I have learned as I work with the working collies is that they are always trying to do the right thing, so if you shout at them when they aren't delivering what you want, you simply break their hearts.   :'(   It is always the handler's fault.  (Maybe not when they are very first learning, and run in excitedly and even grip :o, perhaps, but once you have them sorted with the basics.)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #38 on: June 29, 2020, 09:55:58 am »
My dad trained other people's gundogs and he would say that you aimed not to have to reprimand but if you did you would do it in a way that the reprimand counted .... the dog understood what the correction was for and the correction was precise and measured. I remember him telling folk off for reprimanding their dogs usually saying ...... ' it's you and not the dog'!

Oh, this.  So much this.

One of the things I have learned as I work with the working collies is that they are always trying to do the right thing, so if you shout at them when they aren't delivering what you want, you simply break their hearts.   :'(   It is always the handler's fault.  (Maybe not when they are very first learning, and run in excitedly and even grip :o , perhaps, but once you have them sorted with the basics.)


Most dogs try to please you. I wouldn't reprimand a dog because it didn't do what I wanted it to do
working the sheep or retrieving a rabbit. That isn't about unacceptable behaviour. And will absolutely break trust and confidence.




SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #39 on: June 29, 2020, 10:06:48 am »
Most dogs try to please you. I wouldn't reprimand a dog because it didn't do what I wanted it to do
working the sheep or retrieving a rabbit. That isn't about unacceptable behaviour. And will absolutely break trust and confidence.

Well let's cherish that as something we can agree on!  lol   :hug:
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2020, 10:12:37 am »
My working line labs do want to please and so they are relatively easy to train. However I don't think that they 'always' want to please and sometimes they would prefer to do what they want to do. Often it is the handlers 'fault' but sometimes the dog surely chooses to ignore and do what it wants to do?


When you're working any dog I'd agree though that you have to be very careful when and how much you reprimand and how you reprimand because you can easily 'ruin' a young dog for work. Hence why professional trainers are so careful and considered in using reprimands.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2020, 11:16:56 am »
For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e
I disagree!!!

By far teh most important commadn is STOP - right where you are, no questions.

THEN and only then should you recall - when it is safe for the dog to do so.

A friend of mine had a pup from me, they lived near a railway line, the dog had a 100% recall as it was used with birds of prey.  Heidi was out for a walk with 2 year old Copper one day and she ran off to hunt, Heidi saw her at the other side of the railway line and immediately whistled recall. Copper immediately started to run back - just as the Inverness to London train came along - she carried her beloved dying dog 3 miles to her car and Copper died in her arms.
So STOP command is first - 100%  It can be a life saver
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2020, 11:51:45 am »
My working line labs do want to please and so they are relatively easy to train. However I don't think that they 'always' want to please and sometimes they would prefer to do what they want to do. Often it is the handlers 'fault' but sometimes the dog surely chooses to ignore and do what it wants to do?


When you're working any dog I'd agree though that you have to be very careful when and how much you reprimand and how you reprimand because you can easily 'ruin' a young dog for work. Hence why professional trainers are so careful and considered in using reprimands.


I'm sure they choose to ignore and that could be because we have blurred the lines, given the wrong signals etc but also it could be just to test our dominance as pack leader.

harmony

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2020, 12:00:42 pm »
For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e
I disagree!!!

By far teh most important commadn is STOP - right where you are, no questions.

THEN and only then should you recall - when it is safe for the dog to do so.

A friend of mine had a pup from me, they lived near a railway line, the dog had a 100% recall as it was used with birds of prey.  Heidi was out for a walk with 2 year old Copper one day and she ran off to hunt, Heidi saw her at the other side of the railway line and immediately whistled recall. Copper immediately started to run back - just as the Inverness to London train came along - she carried her beloved dying dog 3 miles to her car and Copper died in her arms.
So STOP command is first - 100%  It can be a life saver


I would agree that "stop" is up there with recall. Although it could be down, sit or stay as long as the dog also learns it doesn't move again until told. Sad story  :hug: :hug:

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Graeme Hall or Barbara Woodhouse?
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2020, 12:24:00 pm »
Arrr Doganjo, that is so sad.


I'm just reinforcing/teaching to a higher level the stop whistle with my young dog. Your tragic story shows the importance of the stop command for safety and to be honest I hadn't thought too much about it in that way.
Thanks for sharing.  :hug:

 

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