[Hillview Farm]

We had issues with dogs last year (three attacks in 8 weeks) and not one left or pulled wool off.

I agree report it and I'd sit out there or pay someone with a gun to do so.

Must thoughts would be dog. The one with the broken neck could have run into the fence. We had one that as soon as the sheep died we believe the 'fun' was over and left. Perhaps the other one had been killed by a dog and exposed flesh so birds came and pecked.

Think I would have had the vet out to look and do  a PM  and see how if there was anything they could have died from naturally

[Steph Hen]

I am sorry for your loss. What a traumatic thing to happen.

Let's say we don't believe in big cats, and they wouldn't be out in the day, also applies for fox and badger.
Corvids would have taken eyes had it been there longer, so not left since last night.
Dogs are the obvious one, but don't normally eat so and I would expect more damage to the rest of the eaten sheep, pulled wool, etc.
Eagle? Nah.

From the photo, looks like ribs have been chewed (or am I looking at it wrong?) indicating large mammal.

If you can bring yourself to skin them you may get clues? Looking for puncture wounds or bruises to indicate attack pattern, bite size or claw wounds to indicate cat. Can you put one back as bait for your armed (camera or gun) vigil? 

[Marches Farmer]

Let's say we don't believe in big cats, and they wouldn't be out in the day, also applies for fox and badger.

Saw a black panther (actually a melanistic puma) at 7.00 a.m. from a distance of around 200 metres. My neighbour across the valley saw an identical animal twice, once at 11.00 a.m. from very close quarters - he was downwind on the other side of a field hedge. I'm presently spotting a big dog fox at around an hour before dusk almost every day, crossing from one side of a field into the steep ground next to the stream - his days are few, though.

[Steph Hen]

Sorry, I was sort of generalising train of thought, - but slapped down the text and now see it didn't make sense   
I've seen these out in daytime too, and convincing enough footage of big cats in uk to know that there are some. But generally, kinda recon most predations by fox or badger would be at night, and if it were a question of a big cat vs escaped Fido, assume it was dog as most likely... Unless there was evidence to reject this.

[Coximus]

thanks for all the feed back guys - alot to think on;

The photos are on the animals as found in situ,

I couldnt of missed the stripped carcase as I know that lamb well - it has unique double horns and was a very tame lamb. Also the stripped carecase was near the entrace to the field, where I walk through (in the middle of the sheep "path").

The first un stripped one had light cuts and marks to the neck where the break was - something took it down by the neck, that I am certain of.

Their were bits of wool upto 5m away from the stripped carcase, so could of been dogs with that in mind.

Their are plenty of ravens and crows about to strip, but the short time frame, and the fact the eyes had not been taken tells me something bigger was feeding after the kill, and that their was little time from kill to me finding them.

Also rigor mortis had not set in.

Their was alot of blood about 1 m from the stripped carcase, but very little near the non stripped one.

I dont want to think big cat as in this area with plenty of active shooting farmers, I cant imagine one would last long at all, however it is all too unlike dog for my liking. Unless a pack of dogs.



This morning, strange behaviour all over again with all animals staying clear of the road boundary and behaving odd, flocking tightly and very skittish, their approach distance is nearly 100m now, up from 10m, so something is bothering them.

Long few days ahead.

[waterbuffalofarmer]

I would inform my local fox hunter or a hunter and ask them to search for any predator.

[Garmoran]

When dogs kill sheep they make a lot more mess than that.

If a dog had picked that carcass clean (or a fox) there would be more bone damage and displacement.

...

It would be odd however for ravens to strip the bones like that and not take the eye, although it does happen.

It doesn't look like those animals have been attacked and killed there. . . . . if a dog had pulled it, you'd have tufts of wool pulled out and a lacerated throat.

Seems almost as if they have had their necks broken somehow. . . . . and then been picked over by carrion birds. Very weird to have two though. . . . . .

I have to agree with Prterlauren, though it doesn't really help much. I have never seen an animal stripped so quickly or cleanly, and we have hoodies, buzzards and white-tailed eagles looking for carrion.

You have my sympathy - it's bad enough when beasts die for explicable reasons, but we can do without mysterious deaths like this. I hope you get to the bottom of it.

[Marches Farmer]

Back to the big cat possibility - we have plenty of farmers around with shotguns but our area has lots of ancient woodlands, steep sided valleys with streams at the bottom and so on.  I'd guess they'd go for easy prey like rabbits but lambs are probably a lot easier pickings than deer.

[Porterlauren]

With what you say about the blood, the wool pulling and the marks to the neck. . . . . it does sound more dog like. Out of interest are the marks to the neck under the throat / to the side, or on the back of the neck?

I can't imagine that a pack or single dog would be able to strip the flesh from the bones so 'neatly', they would chew at bones, break them, and pull bones apart etc.

The road boundary thing is interesting. . . . . . .


With regard to the big cat theory - My biggest argument against it, is where are the dead ones. If there are so many wandering around that they are seen all over the country. Why has one never been found dead of natural causes, hit by a car, caught in a snare, caught in a cage trap, shot, flushed on a pheasant drive, flushed from woods or cover by hounds, seen by someone lamping or using night vision etc etc etc. There are a hell of a lot of people out there looking for beasts day and night. . . . . and none of them have ever bumped into one.

[Steph Hen]

There have been a handful of bodies of cats. I've seen two convincing videos on the Internet. One on train tracks in Scotland and one in a field in England, think it was Hereford or somewhere. Without more evidenced I struggle to believe that there really is a breeding population, but am convinced that in there is the odd big cat is out there.

[Black Sheep]

Afraid I can't add anything authoritative on what is responsible but the discussions are intriguing. Whether there are big cats wild in the UK or not will likely run and run, but if there are they would have most likely have come from exotics kept as pets that were released by their owners, rather than take the alternative options, when the Dangerous Wild Animals Act came in in 1976. That was nearly 40 years ago - probably at least 3 generations of these species later. That means either continued releases, which seems unlikely, or sustained breeding, which also lengthens the odds.

Anyway, putting that aside... Big cats will eat in situ if they don't feel vulnerable. Lions are the obvious example, but I seriously doubt a roaming pride of lions!!! However I have seen examples of leopards quite bold enough to eat in the open and sometimes in daylight where they are the dominant predator in that system (as they certainly would be over here). Whilst normally lions and spotted hyena would "outrank" them, where these are absent (for example on African farm land due to eradication) the leopard will be top dog, so to speak. Kills can then be left in the open with no attempt to disguise or cache them. The broken neck is actually typical of a leopard but the pattern of missing tissue isn't. The "cleanness" of the area stripped of flesh and lack of marks on the bones is really odd too for any predator.

If there are big cats wild in the UK they are most likely to be one of the solitary types, e.g. leopard or puma (mountain lion/cougar - although recent data suggests these could be more social than previously thought). They are exceptionally stealthy and will not necessarily run. There are many examples showing how well camouflaged these creatures can be and if they believe they haven't been seen they will stay put. A human may need to get exceptionally close to make them bolt (within 5m for example) although I would agree if dogs had the scent this would be a different situation. They are also stealthy enough to approach people and other animals with them having no idea whatsoever of their presence. Leopards are frequently known to sneak up on large dogs (think alsatian size) on African steadings and spirit them away without a sound being heard and even to take dogs from within houses at night.

I guess what may be worth doing would be to survey the area moving outwards in ever widening circles looking for other signs - be they fur, tracks, disturbed ground, blood trails and so on. Given the strange behaviour towards the road boundary I'd do the same all along there, especially looking at any gaps where a predator could have hidden or come through. We also shouldn't ignore the human angle. I think you said this was a friendly sheep so it could have approached a human interloper in the field. Horns give leverage to break necks and tissue can be cleanly removed with a knife - although quite why like this would be anyone's guess. Are there any signs of other people on site - footprints etc, tyre marks on the grass verge etc?

Hope you get some answers.

[Marches Farmer]

I saw one and my neighbour saw one.  If a sheep dies the crows strip it within hours and the foxes and badgers carry off any bits left.  How would you know if bones under a hedge were sheep, roadkill or big cat?

[nutterly_uts]

I don't think the lack of solid evidence is necessarily due to a lack of big cats - there are plenty of reports from otherwise reliable people.

I know its not the same, but don't forget Gorillas were thought to be made up by local people for many years before being officially discovered and they are much bigger, destructive AND numerous than big cats would be.

" It wasn’t until 1847 that a westerner (physician Thomas Savage) managed to obtain several gorilla bones, including a skull, while in Liberia, and published the very first formal description of the great ape. The next decade, explorer Paul du Chaillu became the first modern European to see a live gorilla during his expeditions to equatorial Africa. As for the mountain gorilla, a different, larger species, it was believed to be a myth until 1902!"

In 1890, Henry Stanley explored the jungles of the Congo looking for Okapi but it was only when an Okapi skin and skull was only found and categorised in 1901 was it recognised, despite reports of it going back as far as Egyptian times.

And there is the guy who does research into Tigers in the Himalayas who KNOWS they are there but getting further evidence is a nightmare :  http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8998000/8998042.stm

Again all the above places are MUCH bigger than the UK, but equally the populations of the animals are much bigger too (I'll hazard a guess there are more tigers in the Himalayas than big cats in the UK!)

[jward]

I firmly believe in the big cats.  I saw a black panther clear as day while out walking my dog (never have been back down that route since!)

But also because where my farm is there's been quite a lot of sightings (Wynyard/Stockton) and I had a foal attacked at the same time as there was a spate of them.  They were in a field next to a large wood and river and the foal was a few days old and his jaw and neck was ripped open and had to be stitched back up.  The vet said if it had been any deeper then it would have killed him and it was his opinion that it was some kind of big wild animal and the mare had saved his life by protecting him as she had deep wounds on her hind legs too.

I've heard of farmers finding sheep carcasses in trees near me too a few years ago.

[Old Shep]

Coximus am I right in thinking there could be quite a lot of Red Kites around you?   I'd still go with the theory of a dog or dogs killing them but maybe Kites would strip the bones and leave the eyes?  ( I don't know of this maybe someone else does?)


A few years ago  I heard a tale of a pack of dogs around Ilkley - all lived in different houses in Ilkley and were chucked out in the evening to get their exercise and let back in when they came back!  The dogs would meet up and trek up to the moors together and then hunt as a pack killing a few sheep each time.  I think efforts by local farmers and Police finally got them caught.