The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Coximus on September 24, 2015, 10:46:03 pm

Title: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 24, 2015, 10:46:03 pm
Rightio ;

An odd one for me at least, 2 dead sheep in one day, situation as follows;

All 50 animals due to be in this 15ac field present and find around 5pm, Around 9pm Text from sister tending her horse stating one ewelamb is stuck in the fence (head through netting horns catching).

Go release said lamb and double check all ok as this is the first time any of this lot of sheep had ever been stuck. All appears fine.

Check again about 10:30 am today, all fine, in fact a wonderfully easy check as the whole lot were sunbathing under the hedge so could count them and walk past.

Quick look in at 3pm, nothing untowards all sheep grazing away.
5:15 Same ewe lamb as yesterday head stuck in fence, whole flock 400 yards away, lamb bleating madly, go release and check her, and walk along the fence to what looks like a resting ewe - turns out to be a recently killed (still warm, eyes in etc) wether, neck broken, still fresh, So I now assume something has been in the field and killed this lamb, others ran away and the daft ewe got stuck in the fence again, wonder if something similar happened yesterday.

Look around and notice another black lump on the ground not with the rest of the animals or moving - go check, An its another wether, this time its been stripped to the bone from jaw to middle of the rib cage - just sekeletal remains, top of head still on an eyes still in (I use eyes as a good indicate of age as the crows have them out double quick round here - in both these cases they were taken by 6pm).

This wether was known well to me as it had unusual twinned horns (horns growing so close they merge) and was a friendly one and came hoping for food this morning.

They were killed and stripped down double fast - am I right to assume dogs? Or a dog kill and foxes scavenging the kill?

They could not of been dead for more than 2 hours, the un-eaten one less than an hour IMO due to being warm and no rigor mortis.

Otherwise I cant think of anything else? THe Kill is abit like a badger kill, but I'm not aware of badgers ever taking such mature animals?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: bazzais on September 24, 2015, 10:55:21 pm
Shocking sorry to hear it.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on September 24, 2015, 10:56:08 pm
What state was the killed and uneaten one in? Other than neck broken? I.e any wounds etc etc. also any wool pulled out, wool around field etc.

Any marks on bones of eaten one, and any bones displaced, moved, carried away etc, or skeleton just stripped of flesh?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: bazzais on September 24, 2015, 10:57:10 pm
So did you move them or preparing to move them?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 24, 2015, 11:24:19 pm
Un-eaten one a few scratches on head and neck, neck broken, no obivous puncture wounds on neck, 4 horned and had blood on horn;

Am I ok to upload pictures of this on here? obivously one is rather graffic;

Bazzais - animals all moved to next field now, but they were due in this one for another 2 months.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 25, 2015, 12:49:37 am
These are both of them - about 30 mins after first found when I came back with barrow / sacks to remove them. In that time the mostly intact one had an eye pinched by the crows who had arrived.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 25, 2015, 12:50:02 am
and the second
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: shygirl on September 25, 2015, 09:20:40 am
That's tragic. We have a goat who traps her head in the fence quite regular and I so worry it will attract predators as she's a sitting target.
Not sure what kills yours but they ate a lot quickly.
When wev had dead sheep, crows have gone for the intestines rather than neck.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: SallyintNorth on September 25, 2015, 09:35:32 am
Badgers generally strip the skin - when you find inside-out skin, it's a good indication it was badgers.

The rib bones have been picked clean, not crunched - doesn't look like a dog has eaten it to me.  Looks more like a bird has been eating it.

What condition are they in?  Skinny or nicely plump? 
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Rosemary on September 25, 2015, 09:42:11 am
No idea but very, very sorry to hear this. :hug:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: SallyintNorth on September 25, 2015, 09:46:44 am
I meant to say that too - horrible thing to happen.   :bouquet:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: harmony on September 25, 2015, 10:03:09 am
Very sorry for you, that is very upsetting. There is the possibility that neither died because of an attack but natural causes and that carrion just picked your first lamb clean so I would give the rest of the flock a good check.



Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Foobar on September 25, 2015, 10:28:12 am
If the neck is broken then that would indicate not natural causes.  I would be thinking dog, especially as it's during the day; and birds have stripped it after the kill.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Remy on September 25, 2015, 10:37:07 am
That's awful, sorry to hear  :-\ .   I would think it unusual for a badger or fox to take on a well grown sheep, they are more usually scavengers.  If the first dead lamb was still warm with a broken neck it might implicate dogs?  It would be my first thought.


I know that there is flystrike around at the mo (four of mine have been struck very quickly) but doesn't sound from your description that's the case  :-[
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on September 25, 2015, 11:14:15 am
 I'm so sorry  :hug: :hug: it could be a wild massive cat, I would alert the local authorities about how they have been killed. For a carcase to be stripped that quickly it could have been killed by a pack of dogs, not foxes, but most likely a panther or two.Have you seen any panthers of big wild cats about?  Could you move them to another field? Have you got a gun? Maybe conceal yourself in bushes and watch the flock and  watch to see for anything suspicious.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Foobar on September 25, 2015, 11:18:23 am
How close is your field to civilisation?  Do ppl walk dogs in the area / are they any footpaths nearby?


Sorry for your loss btw  :(.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on September 25, 2015, 11:58:36 am
so sorry to read about this, horrible and worrying.
just wondering, don't get cross, but because they all seemed to be OK earlier on, could you have missed the half eaten one? thinking it was sleep from a distance?
Didn't think badgers were about during the day?
Doesn't explain the broken neck though.
I think it should be reported to police, if there are other incidents in the neighbourhood it may all come together and a high alert put out?
Posters up asking if anybody has seen anything? (with a picture) if it is a dog maybe owners will start keeping them on leads? there must have been evidence on the dog when it got home!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Sbom on September 25, 2015, 01:21:58 pm
We had one sick the other day and it looked to have been attacked by dogs as it had blood on its head, and is next to a footpath where we have had previous dog problems, it came back to the farm and was treated but died the next day. On closer inspection we found what appeared to be a single bullet hole in the side of its head :-( , had a root around but due to it being in the skull we couldn't find the bullet.
Police informed but not really interested
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: harmony on September 25, 2015, 03:19:11 pm
If the neck is broken then that would indicate not natural causes.  I would be thinking dog, especially as it's during the day; and birds have stripped it after the kill.


I have seen sheep with broken necks that have slipped off walls or rocks. It happens. Dogs pull wool off chasing and bringing down sheep. You would see it it the grass.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 25, 2015, 04:12:36 pm
Have there been reports of big cats in your area?  I've seen a black panther here in the Marches and they will tend to patrol the same route once they know food's around.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: nutterly_uts on September 25, 2015, 05:32:30 pm
I think if I was you I'd be finding a convenient place to park up with a blanket, thermos etc and spend 24hrs to see if anything is around. 2 days of weirdness and 2 deaths would have me pretty worried

Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: verdifish on September 25, 2015, 06:14:19 pm
Regardless of the culprit this does need reporting! 
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Cheviot on September 25, 2015, 06:17:22 pm
In the first pic, is that where you found the carcass, as there doesn't seem to be any blood, I would have thought if the sheep had been killed then eaten, there would have been some blood?
Regards
Sue
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Old Shep on September 25, 2015, 06:30:10 pm
I would really suspect a dog or dogs, if undisturbed they can eat the carcase.  The one with the broken neck could have done it crashing into the fence or a wall panicking.  Really sorry - its an awful thing to happen.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Bramham Wiltshire Horns on September 25, 2015, 06:59:01 pm
i dont have no experience with sheep, but my first though on seeing the carcass was large cat!!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Me on September 25, 2015, 07:06:10 pm
Ok so assuming it was "the beast" what are the chances of it habitually killing and eating in the open in the daytime and remaining unseen/un-shot? Less than none. Sorry peeps it is not a big cat. 
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on September 25, 2015, 09:49:13 pm
Just a few things -

When dogs kill sheep they make a lot more mess than that.

When big cats kill quarry, they certainly make more mess than that.

Big cats don't eat in situ they drag away.

If a dog had picked that carcass clean (or a fox) there would be more bone damage and displacement.

The stripping of the flesh looks very akin to what happens to sheep here with the ravens.

It would be odd however for ravens to strip the bones like that and not take the eye, although it does happen.

It doesn't look like those animals have been attacked and killed there. . . . . if a dog had pulled it, you'd have tufts of wool pulled out and a lacerated throat.

Seems almost as if they have had their necks broken somehow. . . . . and then been picked over by carrion birds. Very weird to have two though. . . . . .

P.S ive a lot of experience with killing things / dead things  :innocent:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Rupert the bear on September 25, 2015, 10:38:23 pm
Definitely report, but contact the local shooters ( local gunsmith would be 1st port of call ) most of these guys have excellent night vision gear . We had the local guys  for a fox problem , what I saw through the night vision was incredible. It would save you a night out in the cold trying to stay awake !
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: bazzais on September 26, 2015, 12:07:24 am
def been eaten by something, the attack animal?, who knows.

Sorry for your loss.

The reason I asked if they had been moved is that - on big moves, sometimes it kills the few.   They enjoy their own space.

But god knows whats happened here - just gutting really gutted.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Brandi on September 26, 2015, 12:21:43 am
What a terrible shock for you, hope you get some information at least then you could respond in some way, take care of yourself :hug:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Hillview Farm on September 26, 2015, 07:22:28 am
We had issues with dogs last year (three attacks in 8 weeks) and not one left or pulled wool off.

I agree report it and I'd sit out there or pay someone with a gun to do so.

Must thoughts would be dog. The one with the broken neck could have run into the fence. We had one that as soon as the sheep died we believe the 'fun' was over and left. Perhaps the other one had been killed by a dog and exposed flesh so birds came and pecked.

Think I would have had the vet out to look and do  a PM  and see how if there was anything they could have died from naturally
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Steph Hen on September 26, 2015, 09:33:51 am
I am sorry for your loss. What a traumatic thing to happen.

Let's say we don't believe in big cats, and they wouldn't be out in the day, also applies for fox and badger.
Corvids would have taken eyes had it been there longer, so not left since last night.
Dogs are the obvious one, but don't normally eat so and I would expect more damage to the rest of the eaten sheep, pulled wool, etc.
Eagle? Nah.

From the photo, looks like ribs have been chewed (or am I looking at it wrong?) indicating large mammal.

If you can bring yourself to skin them you may get clues? Looking for puncture wounds or bruises to indicate attack pattern, bite size or claw wounds to indicate cat. Can you put one back as bait for your armed (camera or gun) vigil? 



Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 26, 2015, 09:41:40 am
Let's say we don't believe in big cats, and they wouldn't be out in the day, also applies for fox and badger.

Saw a black panther (actually a melanistic puma) at 7.00 a.m. from a distance of around 200 metres. My neighbour across the valley saw an identical animal twice, once at 11.00 a.m. from very close quarters - he was downwind on the other side of a field hedge. I'm presently spotting a big dog fox at around an hour before dusk almost every day, crossing from one side of a field into the steep ground next to the stream - his days are few, though.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Steph Hen on September 26, 2015, 09:49:54 am
Sorry, I was sort of generalising train of thought, - but slapped down the text and now see it didn't make sense    :dunce:
I've seen these out in daytime too, and convincing enough footage of big cats in uk to know that there are some. But generally, kinda recon most predations by fox or badger would be at night, and if it were a question of a big cat vs escaped Fido, assume it was dog as most likely... Unless there was evidence to reject this.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 26, 2015, 12:52:55 pm
thanks for all the feed back guys - alot to think on;

The photos are on the animals as found in situ,

I couldnt of missed the stripped carcase as I know that lamb well - it has unique double horns and was a very tame lamb. Also the stripped carecase was near the entrace to the field, where I walk through (in the middle of the sheep "path").

The first un stripped one had light cuts and marks to the neck where the break was - something took it down by the neck, that I am certain of.

Their were bits of wool upto 5m away from the stripped carcase, so could of been dogs with that in mind.

Their are plenty of ravens and crows about to strip, but the short time frame, and the fact the eyes had not been taken tells me something bigger was feeding after the kill, and that their was little time from kill to me finding them.

Also rigor mortis had not set in.

Their was alot of blood about 1 m from the stripped carcase, but very little near the non stripped one.

I dont want to think big cat as in this area with plenty of active shooting farmers, I cant imagine one would last long at all, however it is all too unlike dog for my liking. Unless a pack of dogs.



This morning, strange behaviour all over again with all animals staying clear of the road boundary and behaving odd, flocking tightly and very skittish, their approach distance is nearly 100m now, up from 10m, so something is bothering them.

Long few days ahead.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on September 26, 2015, 01:00:06 pm
I would inform my local fox hunter or a hunter and ask them to search for any predator.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Garmoran on September 26, 2015, 01:45:01 pm
When dogs kill sheep they make a lot more mess than that.

If a dog had picked that carcass clean (or a fox) there would be more bone damage and displacement.

...

It would be odd however for ravens to strip the bones like that and not take the eye, although it does happen.

It doesn't look like those animals have been attacked and killed there. . . . . if a dog had pulled it, you'd have tufts of wool pulled out and a lacerated throat.

Seems almost as if they have had their necks broken somehow. . . . . and then been picked over by carrion birds. Very weird to have two though. . . . . .

I have to agree with Prterlauren, though it doesn't really help much. I have never seen an animal stripped so quickly or cleanly, and we have hoodies, buzzards and white-tailed eagles looking for carrion.

You have my sympathy - it's bad enough when beasts die for explicable reasons, but we can do without mysterious deaths like this. I hope you get to the bottom of it.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 26, 2015, 05:23:56 pm
Back to the big cat possibility - we have plenty of farmers around with shotguns but our area has lots of ancient woodlands, steep sided valleys with streams at the bottom and so on.  I'd guess they'd go for easy prey like rabbits but lambs are probably a lot easier pickings than deer.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on September 26, 2015, 08:36:03 pm
With what you say about the blood, the wool pulling and the marks to the neck. . . . . it does sound more dog like. Out of interest are the marks to the neck under the throat / to the side, or on the back of the neck?

I can't imagine that a pack or single dog would be able to strip the flesh from the bones so 'neatly', they would chew at bones, break them, and pull bones apart etc.

The road boundary thing is interesting. . . . . . .


With regard to the big cat theory - My biggest argument against it, is where are the dead ones. If there are so many wandering around that they are seen all over the country. Why has one never been found dead of natural causes, hit by a car, caught in a snare, caught in a cage trap, shot, flushed on a pheasant drive, flushed from woods or cover by hounds, seen by someone lamping or using night vision etc etc etc. There are a hell of a lot of people out there looking for beasts day and night. . . . . and none of them have ever bumped into one.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Steph Hen on September 26, 2015, 09:18:02 pm
There have been a handful of bodies of cats. I've seen two convincing videos on the Internet. One on train tracks in Scotland and one in a field in England, think it was Hereford or somewhere. Without more evidenced I struggle to believe that there really is a breeding population, but am convinced that in there is the odd big cat is out there.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Black Sheep on September 26, 2015, 09:30:55 pm
Afraid I can't add anything authoritative on what is responsible but the discussions are intriguing. Whether there are big cats wild in the UK or not will likely run and run, but if there are they would have most likely have come from exotics kept as pets that were released by their owners, rather than take the alternative options, when the Dangerous Wild Animals Act came in in 1976. That was nearly 40 years ago - probably at least 3 generations of these species later. That means either continued releases, which seems unlikely, or sustained breeding, which also lengthens the odds.

Anyway, putting that aside... Big cats will eat in situ if they don't feel vulnerable. Lions are the obvious example, but I seriously doubt a roaming pride of lions!!! ;) However I have seen examples of leopards quite bold enough to eat in the open and sometimes in daylight where they are the dominant predator in that system (as they certainly would be over here). Whilst normally lions and spotted hyena would "outrank" them, where these are absent (for example on African farm land due to eradication) the leopard will be top dog, so to speak. Kills can then be left in the open with no attempt to disguise or cache them. The broken neck is actually typical of a leopard but the pattern of missing tissue isn't. The "cleanness" of the area stripped of flesh and lack of marks on the bones is really odd too for any predator.

If there are big cats wild in the UK they are most likely to be one of the solitary types, e.g. leopard or puma (mountain lion/cougar - although recent data suggests these could be more social than previously thought). They are exceptionally stealthy and will not necessarily run. There are many examples showing how well camouflaged these creatures can be and if they believe they haven't been seen they will stay put. A human may need to get exceptionally close to make them bolt (within 5m for example) although I would agree if dogs had the scent this would be a different situation. They are also stealthy enough to approach people and other animals with them having no idea whatsoever of their presence. Leopards are frequently known to sneak up on large dogs (think alsatian size) on African steadings and spirit them away without a sound being heard and even to take dogs from within houses at night.

I guess what may be worth doing would be to survey the area moving outwards in ever widening circles looking for other signs - be they fur, tracks, disturbed ground, blood trails and so on. Given the strange behaviour towards the road boundary I'd do the same all along there, especially looking at any gaps where a predator could have hidden or come through. We also shouldn't ignore the human angle. I think you said this was a friendly sheep so it could have approached a human interloper in the field. Horns give leverage to break necks and tissue can be cleanly removed with a knife - although quite why like this would be anyone's guess. Are there any signs of other people on site - footprints etc, tyre marks on the grass verge etc?

Hope you get some answers.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 26, 2015, 10:14:54 pm
I saw one and my neighbour saw one.  If a sheep dies the crows strip it within hours and the foxes and badgers carry off any bits left.  How would you know if bones under a hedge were sheep, roadkill or big cat?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: nutterly_uts on September 26, 2015, 10:51:13 pm
I don't think the lack of solid evidence is necessarily due to a lack of big cats - there are plenty of reports from otherwise reliable people.

I know its not the same, but don't forget Gorillas were thought to be made up by local people for many years before being officially discovered and they are much bigger, destructive AND numerous than big cats would be.

" It wasn’t until 1847 that a westerner (physician Thomas Savage) managed to obtain several gorilla bones, including a skull, while in Liberia, and published the very first formal description of the great ape. The next decade, explorer Paul du Chaillu became the first modern European to see a live gorilla during his expeditions to equatorial Africa. As for the mountain gorilla, a different, larger species, it was believed to be a myth until 1902!"

In 1890, Henry Stanley explored the jungles of the Congo looking for Okapi but it was only when an Okapi skin and skull was only found and categorised in 1901 was it recognised, despite reports of it going back as far as Egyptian times.

And there is the guy who does research into Tigers in the Himalayas who KNOWS they are there but getting further evidence is a nightmare :  http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8998000/8998042.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/earth/hi/earth_news/newsid_8998000/8998042.stm)

Again all the above places are MUCH bigger than the UK, but equally the populations of the animals are much bigger too (I'll hazard a guess there are more tigers in the Himalayas than big cats in the UK!)
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: jward on September 26, 2015, 11:13:02 pm
I firmly believe in the big cats.  I saw a black panther clear as day while out walking my dog (never have been back down that route since!)

But also because where my farm is there's been quite a lot of sightings (Wynyard/Stockton) and I had a foal attacked at the same time as there was a spate of them.  They were in a field next to a large wood and river and the foal was a few days old and his jaw and neck was ripped open and had to be stitched back up.  The vet said if it had been any deeper then it would have killed him and it was his opinion that it was some kind of big wild animal and the mare had saved his life by protecting him as she had deep wounds on her hind legs too.

I've heard of farmers finding sheep carcasses in trees near me too a few years ago.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Old Shep on September 27, 2015, 09:33:26 am
Coximus am I right in thinking there could be quite a lot of Red Kites around you?   I'd still go with the theory of a dog or dogs killing them but maybe Kites would strip the bones and leave the eyes?  ( I don't know of this maybe someone else does?)


A few years ago  I heard a tale of a pack of dogs around Ilkley - all lived in different houses in Ilkley and were chucked out in the evening to get their exercise and let back in when they came back!  The dogs would meet up and trek up to the moors together and then hunt as a pack killing a few sheep each time.  I think efforts by local farmers and Police finally got them caught.




Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on September 27, 2015, 11:15:11 am
Is there any more news?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: kanisha on September 27, 2015, 11:22:20 am
Set up a motion activated camera or cameras irrespective of any people it is as likely to pick up some more information.  What ever it is is has obviously got the sheep really spooked and needs a more active approach. 

On the big cat theory.... would there be the possiblity of a hybrid wild exotic release hybridised with a domestic cat.

Do dogs strip a carcass at the neck? i thought they had a tendancy to go for the belly once down?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: snowyriver on September 27, 2015, 12:31:57 pm
I firmly believe in the big cats.  I saw a black panther clear as day while out walking my dog (never have been back down that route since!)
I saw one and my neighbour saw one. How would you know if bones under a hedge were sheep, roadkill or big cat?

I'm not sure what killed the lambs, but there are big black cats out there.
I've come face to face with one on a sheepwalk through a covering of bracken not very far from our bungalow at about 4pm one day. Believe me it's not something I ever want to experience again, I'm not totally convinced who got the biggest fright but by god it cleared some ground in seconds to the safety of some wetland and trees. No wonder no one shoots them or takes photos of them, the first thing I was concerned about was my own safety! Other farmers and walkers in the area have also seen some locally, even one sighting of a female with a kitten out on moorland in broad daylight.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on September 27, 2015, 12:42:25 pm
Ive no doubt that there are the odd escaped / released cat around. But I don't buy that there are breeding populations. Whats interesting is that pretty much every time one is seen, its always by someone on their own, and some 'civilian' (don't take offence). Ive spent many years and 1000's of hours, in the countryside both day and night, seeking to hunt out beasties from the woods, hedges, bracken, gorse, ditches, forests, moorland, you name it. Ive pretty much tracked down and often ultimately killed (when legal and for a purpose) pretty much every quarry in the British Isles, and many across Europe (the dogs have passports!). This includes all of the usual ones, fox, rabbit, hare, deer of every variety, wild boar, badgers in Europe where it is legal, and a few weird ones, like wallabies (they were not killed). And never in all of that time, have I treed or flushed or caught a large cat in the U.K. And never in all of the hours and hours, they I have spent walking / driving around fields at night with a lamp or night vision have I stumbled across one. And funnily enough neither has any other hunter in the whole country. . . . nor has any of the countless packs of hounds who hunt nearly every moor, wood and field in the U. K over the winter ever treed, flushed or killed one. No game keeper has seen one, no deer stalker sat in a high seat silently for hours. . . . .

It's always some random walker, or someone just having a potter about that 'bumps' into one quite by accident.

So why is that?

And please don't tell me that cats are too smart or cunning or any of that crap. As I have plenty of friends who live in countries where there are big cats (of varying types) who regularly hunt them, and successfully tree of catch them. And they don't seem to be smart enough to avoid the random walkers etc who see them.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: regen on September 27, 2015, 08:07:44 pm
About 12 years ago we had reports of a local big cat on the prowl. There were even stories of farmers who had lost sheep - it was always 50! but dont know if that was before or after a few beers!  I found some tracks in the snow in the forestry and the local expert came to have a look - yes definately a big cat he said - i was impressed until he professed that it had 2 cubs with it when he examined some other tracks close by- suddenly I was unimpressed as I knew those to have been made by our 2 jack russels the day before, Never the less I took some pictures and sent one of to a big cat website - by return I was asked for more pictures they could use but no ID was forth coming so I sent them to a naturalist who specialised in foot prints and  back came the answer they are all dog prints.

A couple of years later and 20 miles to the east a dog was killed and partially eaten. Even police marksmen were involved but DNA testing only revealed two possible culprits- badger and dog!

That said about 20 years ago a Bulgarian student who was out in the early morning moving irrigation pipes for me said he saw a large black cat the size of a labrador and he had absolutely no reason to lie so he definately thought he saw it.

Where livestock,particularly sheep,are involved and people get to know, the owner would rather blame a big cat than own up to the fact that his dog has turned into a sheep killer!

That there were a few roaming about in the 1980s after the law changed is a distinct possibility but breeding and surviving in the wild in the UK in 2015 I doubt it. Our local foxhound pack goes out to kill foxes - 2 dogs and 10 guns- they have been doing it for years covering some very dense and steep forestry - they kill many foxes but have never seen a big cat inspite of the now very occasional sightings.

Regen
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 27, 2015, 08:36:17 pm
Update;

Thanks for the continued feedback folks;

personally I am ruling out a big cat, as I am 6 miles from leeds, 4 from wetherby, and 4 from harrogate - The chance of one not being seen, shot or filmed in such a busy busy area is so remote.

As for the rip regarding kites;

Thanks that explains alot - I am directly across the valley from harewood estate, (1.5 miles as the cros flys) who released alot of kites, and it is NOT unusual to see 7-8 of them circling places in the valley, especially in winter, I often get pairs gliding up the thermals up my hillside.

A few questions asked of a gamekeeper from another estate, confirm that 5-8 would be needed to eat that much flesh in the time given, but as their is over 50 nesting within 5 miles, and their was possibly as much as 4-5 hours to do it in, that stripping could be attributed to Kites. - Leave 2 questions, How they were killed, and how the clean cut of flesh on the face was achieved.

The neck was broken from behind, hence me being skeptical of dogs, who IME also rip the throat out often. - Looks like a single Hard bite to the neck.

The Knakerman was perpleced picking the corpse up, said it felt crushed, Scraped back the skin around the neck wounds and it looks like a big bite, 4 punctures, probably from two bites, each about 5mm Dia, breaking the neck from the behind.
Obviously will never know on the stripped carcase.



Still does not answer what killed it - my gut says big dogs.

Worth mentioning, My Better half lived in Tanzania in her youth and I've been talking it over, and it does not strike as big cat behaviour at all really, especially given the proximity to woodland, trees and secluded higher ground, the kills are in the open / semi open, and the eating was not done in a safe location - you could sneak up in the rough on the carcase - Not cat like at all.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Hellybee on September 27, 2015, 09:35:52 pm
When we used to mark up lambs with Stockholm tar, we would do neck for badger, forearm and haunches for fox.  Could be be badger,  remember seeing photo a while back where a badger had dragged a large lamb under rocks.  Horrible, I hope you find it, have you done some night watches?  Big hug x
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: snowyriver on September 27, 2015, 09:57:25 pm
Ive no doubt that there are the odd escaped / released cat around.

I certainly would't question someone with your knowledge and experience, but I know what I saw and others in the neighbourhood are witnessing the same.
Some years back, big cats escaped from a keeper some 10 miles away, the female was pregnant and she has since been seen with a kitten by shepherds on a large estate relatively close to where they had been kept, she had given birth in the wild. A party of 4 friends going for a sunday afternoon drive had all seen a big black cat not too far from a narrow country lane. The sightings in our area are seldom by individuals, but groups of people out together.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Fieldfare on September 27, 2015, 10:08:54 pm
...I know this is unlikely now- but with a bit of cash you could have a proper CSI forensic examination of the carcass and the area. You are likely to find hairs/saliva from the animal that could then be examined under a microscope and the DNA could be used  to do various tests (such as DNA sequencing/genotyping). In this way you would possibly find out which species is your killer. In case of dog attacks you could even prove that a particular suspected dog was active on the carcass (and samples could also be taken from the dog to see if your sheep's DNA is on it also). These people would know how a case would be properly handled so it would stand up in a court if it had to go that far http://www.tracenetwork.org/wildlife-forensics/ (http://www.tracenetwork.org/wildlife-forensics/) A vet may be considered a 'responsible person' for collecting samples. Defo. would be interesting if a real suspected 'big cat' incident happened.

If it is dogs I guess they are likely to come back. Get a wildlife spy-camera- this would be helpful to ID the dogs. Then go to the police wildlife/rural crime- in a fantasy world they would pay for the forensics? Locally there are 2 GSD's that are suspected(known) to have killed sheep on about 4 occasions- it will happen again and unless someone shoots them or gets enough good evidence it will just continue around here!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Old Shep on September 27, 2015, 10:46:52 pm
I know most dog attacks would be from underneath the neck, but think small sheep and big dog (Ridgeback keeps springing to my mind) attack from above is not unthinkable.  Hope the rest keep safe.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 27, 2015, 10:55:12 pm
old shep - regarding the ilkley dogs - I know of that, It was true as Their was a bit of a hoohaaaaa when someone went to the police - their dog got home with a .303 wedged in it, the night a few huntsment made 4 dogs get their missing posters up.

We do get the od stray, but never had an issue with them, had a few nips but the fencing is pretty good as is the hedging so it takes a pretty agile animal to break in.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 27, 2015, 11:11:17 pm
Thanks fieldffare - I will bear it in mind for future ref - I burnt the remains of the eaten one (only the head left with flesh on by the time I went back to collect it) and the other was collected Sat eve by the Knakerman. Still untouched strangely.

Most dogs round here are on a lead, as pretty much all my neighbours are known to be zero nonsense types- but as you’ve seen the lay-by by my land - it is a popular walkers spot, and so close to leeds and harrogate mean someone could of been having a day trip and let the dog out - the kills were all in sight of the lay by / beauty spot.
Would still need to have been a big dog.

I dont want any more deaths, but if their are at least I can be prepared for action.

That and mixing up my visit times abit more in case it is a dog walker, as they tend to be elderly during the week, and so between 10-3, I tend to visit first thing and then after work / early evening.


Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on September 28, 2015, 08:15:09 am
If the neck is broken then that would indicate not natural causes.  I would be thinking dog, especially as it's during the day; and birds have stripped it after the kill.
The preferred method for cats catching small mammalian prey is to jump, turn in the air and come down on the back.  In the case of rats they then break the neck, being as cautious about those teeth as I am.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Buttermilk on September 28, 2015, 08:28:17 am
I watched a single foxhound kill a fox with a bite to the back of the neck.  When I was younger, more energetic and foxhunting was legal.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: shotblastuk on September 28, 2015, 08:19:49 pm
We had a wallaby on the loose at the weekend here in Gloucestershire. Not sure they are any threat to livestock though!!  :relief:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 28, 2015, 08:47:01 pm
I saw a dead wallaby on the roadside near Stocksbridge once, was told they live on the moors up their!

Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: moony on September 28, 2015, 09:01:17 pm
We had a couple of similar deaths. That was our old stallion that dispatched them and a fox that stripped them.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: devonlady on September 28, 2015, 09:49:46 pm
We have wallabies in Haldon Forest a few miles away. Few people have seen them though, most are too noisy.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 28, 2015, 11:19:44 pm
Their are two horses sharing the land with my sheep at the moment - you stay stalion? A kick to the head was it? Doesnt explain the marks on the neck, but they could be post death. makes me think, I did see them chasing the sheep last week.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on September 28, 2015, 11:37:00 pm
Ah. . . . . you didn't mention the horses! Ive had a sheep picked up by a horse (with its teeth) and pummelled into the ground, and had plenty run over, kicked and chased about.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 29, 2015, 01:27:30 am
for clarrity, the intact carcase was in the field where a pony and horse are currently grazing, the stripped carcase was in the lower field the horses have never had access to - hmm
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on September 29, 2015, 01:59:58 am
The plot thickens or is that 'becomes clearer'
had a goose killed by a horse in our field.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: JTFarms on September 29, 2015, 03:35:30 am
The stripped carcase was obviously drugged from one field to the other by wild animals such as foxes and wild dogs
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Me on September 29, 2015, 07:53:11 am
Saw a shetland gelding picked off the ground by the neck and then pushed into the ground by another horse once - innocuous enough, sadly there was a farm implement of some kind there and he lost an eye
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: moony on September 29, 2015, 08:21:21 am
Our old stallion used to throw them around. He would toss them again and again and then pretty much disembowel them when they died, hence why he had to be moved on.

Our others get on well with the sheep but even then we have lost a couple to trampling over the years. With such a massive weight difference between them, even a non aggressive action can result in fatality.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Me on September 29, 2015, 08:33:44 am
I did see them chasing the sheep last week.

Facts Watson give me facts  :idea:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: shygirl on September 29, 2015, 07:40:11 pm
our mule tramples dogs, and for that reason never has access to our goats. she taught our highland pony to do the same, and she is just as deadly as she is so big, clumsy and silly. we cant walk the dogs amongst these two without a stick so can definitely believe they could potentially kill a sheep.
our stallion did however trample a sow - who incidentally was in season and was following him all day.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Steph Hen on September 29, 2015, 09:00:22 pm
But the puncture wounds to the neck..?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: BenBhoy on September 29, 2015, 10:11:04 pm
Some twisted sicko?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on September 30, 2015, 09:44:32 am
telling whether it was before or after the animal is killed is hard - could something of been dragging them to somewhere for lunch? I just cant tell without seeing the kill!

personally I've come down on the following two scenarios ;

1) Animals killed by large dog coming off the road, either left in situ or dragged abit, one in the open eaten partially by animals etc and red kite (counted 4 circling a rabbit on the road yesterday so not impossible they stripped it), the lamb near the horses was left as no scavengers wanted to disturb it, too open, exposed and near big animals, one or two tried to drag it hence bite marks, but were un able to move it.

2) Un known death of stripped animal, same fate as above, and animal in field with horse was killed by horse hoof contact and it was just a co-incidence they happened together.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on October 01, 2015, 01:53:21 am
Presume everything has been OK since? hope the rest of the sheep have settled down again.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on October 01, 2015, 03:15:13 am
animals were moved to rented land at a neighbours as a precaution and nothing untoward since, apart from a ram getting in and covering god knows what and when.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: JTFarms on October 01, 2015, 07:15:48 am
Your first pic is not doubt a wild dog like animal as they such as wolves go for the head and throat area when they kill sheep or small prey house dogs that people let roam free will chase the sheep for sport and play and make a kill but rarely ever eat anything they most always bite at he rear of the animal pull out wool and leave bite marks on the hindquarters of the animal the house dogs gang up in packs and their peers never no it unless some knows the dog and owner their at the hose at night on the porch and gone during the day or vise versa and their owners never know you gonna have to get you a gun and light and stay one nite and one one day out there in this field till you get it that is all you can do other than keep feeding it your choice not a  hard one for me.  James
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on October 01, 2015, 12:09:40 pm
Yer because we are crawling with wolves . . . . .
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on October 01, 2015, 12:37:52 pm
I think JTF is from across the pond?
Always interesting to hear from over there though  :)
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on October 01, 2015, 09:10:11 pm
small update today, in the otherwise empty field, nothing in it now for 4 days - Big steamy dog poop, fresh near the gate between top and bottom fields (so dog has crossed a paddock from the road) - this leads to nowhere but another field, albeit with a lovely view - Trail cam to go up and an eye to stay open.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on October 02, 2015, 12:33:30 am
Aye. . . . . thats the thing. It generally IS the obvious answer!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on October 02, 2015, 08:50:08 am
and it wasnt a small dog either judging by this poo.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Me on October 02, 2015, 08:54:30 am
Maybe it was a Chihuahua, but had just eaten a whole sheep
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: waterbuffalofarmer on October 02, 2015, 01:29:31 pm
Isn't it a pity you can't get a gun attached to a camera which can be controlled from anywhere, so then you could shoot the dog in question. Has anyone around where you are, ideally nearest to your land, have any big dogs? Did you talk to the authorities? I would suggest finding the owner, if possible, and bill them for the sheep and request they have their dog put down. It is irresponsibility to leave a dog permanently on the loose. Are you able to get DNA tests done on dog poop, or any poop for example?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: harmony on October 02, 2015, 04:38:52 pm
Now I am all for protecting your livestock and shooting dogs that attack sheep but how would you know it was that dog. Is it permanently on the loose? How do you know that? Just cos the owner didn't poop how do you know it wasn't with someone and on a lead? Trail cam a good idea. Good evidence needed!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Me on October 02, 2015, 04:43:18 pm
Exactly...  :innocent:
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: harmony on October 02, 2015, 05:41:11 pm
I don't know why my reply hasn't come out but WBF whilst I am all for shooting sheep worriers you need to be certain you are shooting the right dog. Just cos the owner didn't poop you can't be sure that the dog poop belonged to a loose dog.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on October 02, 2015, 07:36:27 pm
well the poop was a trespassing poop so thats bad enough!
No footpaths for half a mile.

The nearest neighbour has a dog, but its certainly not that, its well kept and broken to sheep. If I see a dog worrying my sheep, I would naturally deal with in line with the law, as best and as swiftly as I could depending on the circumstances at the time. The issue is being their when it happens.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: clydesdaleclopper on October 02, 2015, 08:18:19 pm
you can't be sure that the dog poop belonged to a loose dog.


As long as it wasn't a loose poop belonging to a dog (sorry to lower the tone  ;) )
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Hellybee on October 03, 2015, 10:30:54 am
The number of dogs I've see lost on the dog sites, whilst having a look through for our own boy, amazes me, perhaps someone has dumped a dog?
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Marches Farmer on October 03, 2015, 11:08:10 am
I see in Farmers Guardian that a dog owner in Anglesey has been jailed for three months for allowing two American pit bulls to savage a bull (which had to be put down) then a few days later 9 sheep belonging to another farmer (who shot the dogs).  She'd put some carpet over the fence to allow the dogs access to the field!!!!
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Coximus on October 03, 2015, 11:56:11 am
True, conclusion is dog, caught someone this morning walking along the hedge line between two fields. Looks like I didnt realise a few locals were using a morning cut-through.

Dog was off lead too, pity no sheep in the field as I was close to loosing my rag.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Porterlauren on October 03, 2015, 01:13:24 pm
The worst bit is chances are the owner saw what the dog did and scarpered.

Get some signs up, loose dogs will be shot. You won't have to shoot any, but it'll make folk think.
Title: Re: Whats killing my sheep?
Post by: Penninehillbilly on October 04, 2015, 01:45:30 am
put your photo of carcase on a poster, either 'did your dog do this? or
'Reward following prosecution' type poster?
as you won't have the evidence to prosecute you won't have to pay anybody?