[waterbuffalofarmer]

Is there any more news?

[kanisha]

Set up a motion activated camera or cameras irrespective of any people it is as likely to pick up some more information.  What ever it is is has obviously got the sheep really spooked and needs a more active approach. 

On the big cat theory.... would there be the possiblity of a hybrid wild exotic release hybridised with a domestic cat.

Do dogs strip a carcass at the neck? i thought they had a tendancy to go for the belly once down?

[snowyriver]

I firmly believe in the big cats.  I saw a black panther clear as day while out walking my dog (never have been back down that route since!)

I saw one and my neighbour saw one. How would you know if bones under a hedge were sheep, roadkill or big cat?

I'm not sure what killed the lambs, but there are big black cats out there.
I've come face to face with one on a sheepwalk through a covering of bracken not very far from our bungalow at about 4pm one day. Believe me it's not something I ever want to experience again, I'm not totally convinced who got the biggest fright but by god it cleared some ground in seconds to the safety of some wetland and trees. No wonder no one shoots them or takes photos of them, the first thing I was concerned about was my own safety! Other farmers and walkers in the area have also seen some locally, even one sighting of a female with a kitten out on moorland in broad daylight.

[Porterlauren]

Ive no doubt that there are the odd escaped / released cat around. But I don't buy that there are breeding populations. Whats interesting is that pretty much every time one is seen, its always by someone on their own, and some 'civilian' (don't take offence). Ive spent many years and 1000's of hours, in the countryside both day and night, seeking to hunt out beasties from the woods, hedges, bracken, gorse, ditches, forests, moorland, you name it. Ive pretty much tracked down and often ultimately killed (when legal and for a purpose) pretty much every quarry in the British Isles, and many across Europe (the dogs have passports!). This includes all of the usual ones, fox, rabbit, hare, deer of every variety, wild boar, badgers in Europe where it is legal, and a few weird ones, like wallabies (they were not killed). And never in all of that time, have I treed or flushed or caught a large cat in the U.K. And never in all of the hours and hours, they I have spent walking / driving around fields at night with a lamp or night vision have I stumbled across one. And funnily enough neither has any other hunter in the whole country. . . . nor has any of the countless packs of hounds who hunt nearly every moor, wood and field in the U. K over the winter ever treed, flushed or killed one. No game keeper has seen one, no deer stalker sat in a high seat silently for hours. . . . .

It's always some random walker, or someone just having a potter about that 'bumps' into one quite by accident.

So why is that?

And please don't tell me that cats are too smart or cunning or any of that crap. As I have plenty of friends who live in countries where there are big cats (of varying types) who regularly hunt them, and successfully tree of catch them. And they don't seem to be smart enough to avoid the random walkers etc who see them.

[regen]

About 12 years ago we had reports of a local big cat on the prowl. There were even stories of farmers who had lost sheep - it was always 50! but dont know if that was before or after a few beers!  I found some tracks in the snow in the forestry and the local expert came to have a look - yes definately a big cat he said - i was impressed until he professed that it had 2 cubs with it when he examined some other tracks close by- suddenly I was unimpressed as I knew those to have been made by our 2 jack russels the day before, Never the less I took some pictures and sent one of to a big cat website - by return I was asked for more pictures they could use but no ID was forth coming so I sent them to a naturalist who specialised in foot prints and  back came the answer they are all dog prints.

A couple of years later and 20 miles to the east a dog was killed and partially eaten. Even police marksmen were involved but DNA testing only revealed two possible culprits- badger and dog!

That said about 20 years ago a Bulgarian student who was out in the early morning moving irrigation pipes for me said he saw a large black cat the size of a labrador and he had absolutely no reason to lie so he definately thought he saw it.

Where livestock,particularly sheep,are involved and people get to know, the owner would rather blame a big cat than own up to the fact that his dog has turned into a sheep killer!

That there were a few roaming about in the 1980s after the law changed is a distinct possibility but breeding and surviving in the wild in the UK in 2015 I doubt it. Our local foxhound pack goes out to kill foxes - 2 dogs and 10 guns- they have been doing it for years covering some very dense and steep forestry - they kill many foxes but have never seen a big cat inspite of the now very occasional sightings.

Regen

[Coximus]

Update;

Thanks for the continued feedback folks;

personally I am ruling out a big cat, as I am 6 miles from leeds, 4 from wetherby, and 4 from harrogate - The chance of one not being seen, shot or filmed in such a busy busy area is so remote.

As for the rip regarding kites;

Thanks that explains alot - I am directly across the valley from harewood estate, (1.5 miles as the cros flys) who released alot of kites, and it is NOT unusual to see 7-8 of them circling places in the valley, especially in winter, I often get pairs gliding up the thermals up my hillside.

A few questions asked of a gamekeeper from another estate, confirm that 5-8 would be needed to eat that much flesh in the time given, but as their is over 50 nesting within 5 miles, and their was possibly as much as 4-5 hours to do it in, that stripping could be attributed to Kites. - Leave 2 questions, How they were killed, and how the clean cut of flesh on the face was achieved.

The neck was broken from behind, hence me being skeptical of dogs, who IME also rip the throat out often. - Looks like a single Hard bite to the neck.

The Knakerman was perpleced picking the corpse up, said it felt crushed, Scraped back the skin around the neck wounds and it looks like a big bite, 4 punctures, probably from two bites, each about 5mm Dia, breaking the neck from the behind.
Obviously will never know on the stripped carcase.



Still does not answer what killed it - my gut says big dogs.

Worth mentioning, My Better half lived in Tanzania in her youth and I've been talking it over, and it does not strike as big cat behaviour at all really, especially given the proximity to woodland, trees and secluded higher ground, the kills are in the open / semi open, and the eating was not done in a safe location - you could sneak up in the rough on the carcase - Not cat like at all.

[Hellybee]

When we used to mark up lambs with Stockholm tar, we would do neck for badger, forearm and haunches for fox.  Could be be badger,  remember seeing photo a while back where a badger had dragged a large lamb under rocks.  Horrible, I hope you find it, have you done some night watches?  Big hug x

[snowyriver]

Ive no doubt that there are the odd escaped / released cat around.

I certainly would't question someone with your knowledge and experience, but I know what I saw and others in the neighbourhood are witnessing the same.
Some years back, big cats escaped from a keeper some 10 miles away, the female was pregnant and she has since been seen with a kitten by shepherds on a large estate relatively close to where they had been kept, she had given birth in the wild. A party of 4 friends going for a sunday afternoon drive had all seen a big black cat not too far from a narrow country lane. The sightings in our area are seldom by individuals, but groups of people out together.

[Fieldfare]

...I know this is unlikely now- but with a bit of cash you could have a proper CSI forensic examination of the carcass and the area. You are likely to find hairs/saliva from the animal that could then be examined under a microscope and the DNA could be used  to do various tests (such as DNA sequencing/genotyping). In this way you would possibly find out which species is your killer. In case of dog attacks you could even prove that a particular suspected dog was active on the carcass (and samples could also be taken from the dog to see if your sheep's DNA is on it also). These people would know how a case would be properly handled so it would stand up in a court if it had to go that far http://www.tracenetwork.org/wildlife-forensics/ A vet may be considered a 'responsible person' for collecting samples. Defo. would be interesting if a real suspected 'big cat' incident happened.

If it is dogs I guess they are likely to come back. Get a wildlife spy-camera- this would be helpful to ID the dogs. Then go to the police wildlife/rural crime- in a fantasy world they would pay for the forensics? Locally there are 2 GSD's that are suspected(known) to have killed sheep on about 4 occasions- it will happen again and unless someone shoots them or gets enough good evidence it will just continue around here!

[Old Shep]

I know most dog attacks would be from underneath the neck, but think small sheep and big dog (Ridgeback keeps springing to my mind) attack from above is not unthinkable.  Hope the rest keep safe.

[Coximus]

old shep - regarding the ilkley dogs - I know of that, It was true as Their was a bit of a hoohaaaaa when someone went to the police - their dog got home with a .303 wedged in it, the night a few huntsment made 4 dogs get their missing posters up.

We do get the od stray, but never had an issue with them, had a few nips but the fencing is pretty good as is the hedging so it takes a pretty agile animal to break in.

[Coximus]

Thanks fieldffare - I will bear it in mind for future ref - I burnt the remains of the eaten one (only the head left with flesh on by the time I went back to collect it) and the other was collected Sat eve by the Knakerman. Still untouched strangely.

Most dogs round here are on a lead, as pretty much all my neighbours are known to be zero nonsense types- but as you’ve seen the lay-by by my land - it is a popular walkers spot, and so close to leeds and harrogate mean someone could of been having a day trip and let the dog out - the kills were all in sight of the lay by / beauty spot.
Would still need to have been a big dog.

I dont want any more deaths, but if their are at least I can be prepared for action.

That and mixing up my visit times abit more in case it is a dog walker, as they tend to be elderly during the week, and so between 10-3, I tend to visit first thing and then after work / early evening.

[Marches Farmer]

If the neck is broken then that would indicate not natural causes.  I would be thinking dog, especially as it's during the day; and birds have stripped it after the kill.

The preferred method for cats catching small mammalian prey is to jump, turn in the air and come down on the back.  In the case of rats they then break the neck, being as cautious about those teeth as I am.

[Buttermilk]

I watched a single foxhound kill a fox with a bite to the back of the neck.  When I was younger, more energetic and foxhunting was legal.

[shotblastuk]

We had a wallaby on the loose at the weekend here in Gloucestershire. Not sure they are any threat to livestock though!!