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Author Topic: Killing humanely  (Read 22569 times)

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2015, 01:16:05 pm »
The cartridges? same price, 16 for 50

Stereo

  • Joined Aug 2012
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2015, 01:19:30 pm »
That diagram is really helpful. Thanks again.

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2015, 01:43:28 pm »
The cartridges? same price, 16 for 50
Alrighty I'll have a talk with my abbatoir :)
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2015, 02:49:18 pm »
Were you thinking of them for abbatoir use?

The only drawback with these I could see for abbatoir use is that the reload time is quite long, you need to unscrew the body from head, manually remove the spent cartridge, reload a new cartridge, screw it back together and cock it.

I suspect it could take 30 seconds or so whereas the Cash type etc are pretty much instantly reloaded and ready to go again

waterbuffalofarmer

  • Joined Apr 2014
  • Mid Wales
  • Owner of 61 Mediterranean water buffaloes
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #34 on: September 01, 2015, 02:55:55 pm »
Oh dear back to square one again. :'(
the most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss and have found their way out of the depths. These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and an understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, loving concern.

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #35 on: September 01, 2015, 03:03:51 pm »
A lot of them are similar I think Sally.

a wall mounted dispatcher that just holds the neck so the dislocation can be done by stretching the birds neck is a good aid.

The type that kill the bird by pushing the lever down on its neck are a crush type and should not be used.

Dislocation should always take place by stretching the neck.

This type has jaws which are not aligned.  As the top piece is brought down, it will naturally go to one side or the other of the vertebra, so will force the two vertebrae apart.  = dislocation , not crushing.

There's a pic of one here
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #36 on: September 01, 2015, 05:38:45 pm »
Yep I know the type and these are what the HSA regard as a crush type implement.

The vertebrae are indeed separated by forcing them in opposite directions but the dislocation is being achieved by putting pressure on the neck from either side until it breaks, whether the jaws are aligned or not still creates a crush action.

Think about the forces being applied to the neck just before it breaks.

The HSA say dislocation should happen by the stretching of the neck so the vertebrae are physically separated by the stretching action.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2015, 05:51:29 pm by Clansman »

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #37 on: September 01, 2015, 07:17:39 pm »
With my hands, if I were strong enough, I could hold two ends of a chicken's neck and pull.  The vertebrae would part, the cord would snap, and the chicken would die through having its neck broken.

I do not see how using a piece of metal to push two vertebrae apart is different.  Apart from it's surer.
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Stereo

  • Joined Aug 2012
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #38 on: September 01, 2015, 07:57:32 pm »
The big problem with dislocation is the physical limitations of the person doing it. I have struggled sometimes and I'm no weakling. Was hefting bales as soon as I could walk. But the problem is that sometimes you come across one with a very sturdy neck, especially if you are taking them to 6 months or more. I would be 100% happy to do leghorns etc. no matter what the age but a big Ixworth or Marans is a different matter. Personally I went on the course provided by Ritchie and Pammy Riggs and got taught the right way to dislocate. We also got to practice on dead birds which Ritchie had electrically stunned and bled (he has all the gear and licences etc.). As they were organic Hubbards at 12 weeks (maybe 16?) it was easy. We also got to practice on a duck which was tough and a goose which I couldn't do at all. Coming off the course I was confident as there was a running joke on the day about me pulling the heads clean off. This year though I seem to have lost the knack, or the strength or something.

I think the airgun is a good idea as long as you are 100% sure where the brain is. A .22 is going to be lights out at close range.

One question on the BRNO stunner for Clansman. Does it render the bird dead or just unconscious? The reason the Americans tend to neck cut and also folk like the Rigg's electrically stun and then neck cut is that although the lights are out, the heart is still pumping so the bleeding is more effective and leads to a cleaner carcass.

Obviously dislocation or the airgun means death and at that point everything starts to slow down in terms of bleeding. Lovely subject this, isn't it?

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #39 on: September 01, 2015, 08:57:09 pm »
With my hands, if I were strong enough, I could hold two ends of a chicken's neck and pull.  The vertebrae would part, the cord would snap, and the chicken would die through having its neck broken.

I do not see how using a piece of metal to push two vertebrae apart is different.  Apart from it's surer.

There is no difference, I agree with you, a dead bird is a dead bird and whatever method you use if you end up with a dead bird you have succeeded, whether that's neck dislocation, shooting, bleeding, electrifying, decapitation etc etc they will all kill.

I'd argue the wall despatcher is surer, as Stereo says its all to do with the operator, someone competent at manual neck dislocation will kill a bird every time and exactly the same with the despatcher.

However we are talking about humane killing and at the moment wall mounted despatchers are considered an inhumane method of culling poultry, however efficient they may be.

You could argue cutting their heads off with a pair of garden shears or an axe is a 100% efficient way of killing poultry but its not a humane way   

Stereo, the stunner is a stunner only, however I would seriously doubt any animal would ever recover from the blow, it will still need to be decapitated, bled or have its neck dislocated after stunning.

When I stun the pigs with mine there is no way they'd ever recover from the blow.

I bleed them after stunning but if I didn't they wouldn't regain conciousness.

Of course we also have Kosha and Halal killing here in the UK :)
« Last Edit: September 02, 2015, 09:09:51 am by Clansman »

Stereo

  • Joined Aug 2012
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #40 on: September 01, 2015, 09:07:46 pm »
That's really what I'm trying to achieve. A perfect stun so there is no pain or awareness and enough time to bleed the bird, causing death in itself before the stun wears off. 

HesterF

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • Kent
  • HesterF
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2015, 12:35:26 am »
I think I'd struggle with mamual dislocation of a cockerel (let alone turkey) but I can manage it very neatly with a broomstick - you don't need nearly the same strength. I do it by hand with the crows and even then it takes a fair amount of strength to click the neck. The only problem with the broomstick is getting the position exactly right and that's where the humane part comes in - if you get it right, it's very quick and efficient but if you're slightly off and have to reposition I'm sure it wouldn't count as humane (I've had a couple I felt awful about even if they whole thing only took a few seconds). There's no way I'd want to go near fire arms just for this though - there's a whole bigger issue for me handling fire arms in a house full of children and with absolutely no background in guns. It's a complete catch 22 - with no abattoir around here that will handle poultry, I can't see many options really.

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2015, 09:18:38 am »
Would an air pistol not do for you? They can be very easily locked away.

I now kill all larger birds with an air pistol or rifle.

I've always killed birds by manual neck dislocation and up until the last year or two i've managed no problem even with 30lb+ turkeys but time is taking its toll and i've struggled a bit the last year or two so moved to the air pistol.

I actually wish i'd done it a lot sooner, takes all the hassle out of the job.


pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2015, 09:38:52 am »
So I've used manual dislocation, manual dislocation with aid of a humane dispatcher (like pliers) which you use to hold the neck and can pull against, and the broomstick method. The latter is the only one the works for me with tougher birds, just can't get enough force to do the job quickly enough right first time every time with the others.  I have an air rifle though so I am tempted to try that, how do,you position the bird to do this, and do you have a board behind or similar to stop the pellet?

Clansman

  • Joined Jul 2013
  • Ayrshire
Re: Killing humanely
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2015, 09:46:09 am »
I hold them by the feet, rest the breast on the ground and shoot straight down through the head.

With big turkeys etc it might be easier to have two people but i manage ok.

Soft ground as a backstop


 

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