The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Stereo on August 30, 2015, 12:16:49 pm
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Last night I did some of my Copper Marans boys. They are big birds and although I have been properly trained to do neck dislocation and am a fairly big bloke, I sometimes feel that it hasn't gone as quickly as I hoped. Referring to the HSA website, I see they now don't really like this idea any more.
I want the very best end for my birds and grim as it may sound, total instantaneous brain destruction has to be the best way to go. I was thinking a silenced .410 or something. I've looked into all the stunning stuff and it seems a bit of a closed loop for the DIYer.
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I use Semark pliers - sit down, hold the bird gently with the wings firmly secured under your elbow, then use the pliers.
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Pliers would definitely be regarded as non humane.
Manual neck dislocation is now regarded as an emergency procedure only and going by EU regulations should not be performed on birds above 3kg live weight.
Broomstick and cone neck dislocation are allowed on birds up to 5kg live weight.
Electrical stunning is the preferred EU method but it's not practical for most smallholders from a financial perspective.
I use an air pistol or air rifle to cull most of my livestock now, from rabbits to large turkeys.
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Thanks. I started out with an air rifle but was never confident I had achieved a clean brain shot. I did search for images of chicken anatomy but couldn't find one! Do you use a cone to keep the bird steady or get someone else to pull the trigger? A captive bolt stunner would be good but I can't get any of the manufacturers to talk to me, never mind sell me one.
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Stereo, I saw a number of captive bolt guns in the catalogue of a gun auction recently. I assume they need a firearms license though, since that was one of the categories I could have ticked when I applied for mine.
I take it you were talking about a .410 shotgun? I had no idea you could silence one of them.
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I saw them being killed on kill it, cook it, eat it. They put them in a cone and used a hand stunner either side of the head and then slit their throats, you would have to look it up on youtube though. In a commercial abbatoir they hang them upside down and pass their heads through an electrified bath of water, CAUTION DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME EVER!!!!!, and then they pass through rotating blades which chop off the heads. Sorry this subject makes me queasy :-[
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On the subject of captive bolt guns.....there is one you can get on an air rifle licence. I found it via google a few months back.
I'll try and find a link on the laptop later and post it for you ;)
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Yes, you can silence a .410. Apparently used as an assassin's weapon during WW2! Nice. I'm not bothered about getting an FAC, was thinking of getting a .22LR for rabbits and crows anyway so could add that on. It's not a nice subject but we have to be practical if we want to eat meat and not just leave it to someone else. I'm happy to do the deed and feel I need to be able to if I'm going to eat meat. I just want it to be instant lights out for the animal in a clam and relaxed environment every single time (emergency injury aside).
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Having seen a neighbour "kill" a rabit with myxy with a .410 then have it run off and find it still alive and bleeding under a hedge two hours later I think skill must come into the equation somewhere along the line ....?
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Being entirely practical about this then, if you're going to be granted a .22lr, I'm sure you'd be given a slot for a captive bolt gun as well, given its somewhat shorter lethal range!
I'm still waiting for my certificate to come through (I could have had a small human being manufactured and delivered in less time :innocent:), but I made sure the officer ticked the box for humane slaughter of livestock as well as pest control, though this would only be an emergency measure for me.
Personally I'm quite happy with the broomstick method for cockerel and turkeys, but geese are trickier. Usually a shot from the air rifle is enough, but I'll confess it did go wrong once and needed three shots before I was sure. Don't jump on me for that one - I still shudder when I think of it :-[.
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I know, I had a 3 shotter with the airgun once which is why I went on the course. I'm happy to spend out on kit, just want the means to do it in the best way and within the law.
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Captive bolt stunners don't require a firearm certificate, anyone over 18 can buy and use one.
Brno guns do a spring loaded poultry/rabbit stunner Stereo but its over £100, I'll post a link to them tomorrow when I get on the pc.
I shoot mine with an air pistol now for ease of use, the turkeys I do at night when its dark using a small light, I bring them outside and just do it as they're sitting there. Big cockerels etc I hold by the feet with one hand and lay them on their front, shoot them down behind the rear of the comb
I just aim straight down through the top of the head probably just behind the eyes, never had one not die instantly.
If they flap I wait till the worst of it is over then dislocate the neck by hand, takes all the pressure off doing them whilst still alive!
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I bought a captive bolt gun from www.acclesandshelvoke.co.uk/ [/size]It cost a bomb (about £600) but I was not confident with other methods and we have geese to do as well as chickens. A cone is essential for the geese as they are very strong when their wings flap. [/size]You may be able to get a used bolt gun but check it carefully. As has been said no license is needed. The bolt for chickens and geese/turkeys is different (the turkey one is pointy, the other flat). You can hold the beak with one hand and position the muzzle against the skull [/size]with the other. It is very effective although we have found that the thick rose comb on our Wyandottes can cause just a stun so we have to position the bolt just behind the comb on these. Always immediately slit the throat as a back up.
[/size]
[/size]Helen
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Poultry one is here, £105
http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html (http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html)
(http://www.fgclassified.com/images/listings/2015-07/bigThmb/the_brno_gun_uk_new_poultry_stunner-1437652981-209-e.jpg)
This is the website:
http://captiveboltstunners.com (http://captiveboltstunners.com)
I have the larger one for cattle etc
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Captive bolt stunners don't require a firearm certificate, anyone over 18 can buy and use one.
Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I wonder how I got my wires crossed then.
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Poultry one is here, £105
http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html (http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html)
(http://www.fgclassified.com/images/listings/2015-07/bigThmb/the_brno_gun_uk_new_poultry_stunner-1437652981-209-e.jpg)
This is the website:
http://captiveboltstunners.com (http://captiveboltstunners.com)
I have the larger one for cattle etc
Thanks for this.
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A single shot handgun for despatching wounded deer etc would require a FAC, might be that?
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We use a full power air pistol for the small or young chickens and a full power air rifle for larger or older. We have had instances were we have only stunned and not killed (no convulsions, just goes limp). This has needed a second shot. Problem is the brain is only small and easily missed. The problem would be exactly the same with a captive bolt I think. We already had the air weapons for vermin control.
Previously we used a wall mounted dispatcher, but read that it doesn't kill immediately. I have to say we have always had the same convulsions immediately as we now get with the air weapons, so not sure there is anything wrong with a wall mounted dispatcher SET CORRECTLY of course and perhaps that's the reason why it has gone out of favour? Is it that sometimes they aren't set correctly? It depends on the size of the neck and needs fine adjustment.
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Poultry one is here, £105
http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html (http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html)
(http://www.fgclassified.com/images/listings/2015-07/bigThmb/the_brno_gun_uk_new_poultry_stunner-1437652981-209-e.jpg)
This is the website:
http://captiveboltstunners.com (http://captiveboltstunners.com)
I have the larger one for cattle etc
Thanks for this.
How much did you pay for the cattle stunner?
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£225
it takes 9mm blanks and strangely enough when I spoke to the guy about them prior to purchase he said they are being used on water buffalo in the UK.
You may well know the place that uses it? I don't imagine there are many of them. ;D
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Previously we used a wall mounted dispatcher, but read that it doesn't kill immediately. I have to say we have always had the same convulsions immediately as we now get with the air weapons, so not sure there is anything wrong with a wall mounted dispatcher SET CORRECTLY of course and perhaps that's the reason why it has gone out of favour? Is it that sometimes they aren't set correctly? It depends on the size of the neck and needs fine adjustment.
My own feeling is that there has been confusion about devices which crush the neck and those which disclocate and snap the cord, and both are now tarred with the same brush.
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A lot of them are similar I think Sally.
a wall mounted dispatcher that just holds the neck so the dislocation can be done by stretching the birds neck is a good aid.
The type that kill the bird by pushing the lever down on its neck are a crush type and should not be used.
Dislocation should always take place by stretching the neck.
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The type that kill the bird by pushing the lever down on its neck are a crush type and should not be used.
Dislocation should always take place by stretching the neck.
The type I have used do have a lever but do not crush. The way the jaws come together, the one side gets between two vertebrae and dislocates, does not crush. This is where I think the confusion has arisen.
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how do you position it between two vertebrae? which one do you use?
If the dislocation is not caused by the physical stretching of the neck then it's a crush and not a humane method according to the HSA
I'm playing Devil's Advocate here, I don't strictly adhere to all the recommendations etc myself, just trying to highlight the topic :innocent:
The HSA also say that decapitation is not a recommended method as brain activity can be present for up to 30 seconds afterwards...
I can't say I agree with that one, especially if the bird is stunned first, really how much quicker and deader can you kill something then by instantaneously removing its head :innocent:
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If you use the diagram from the HSA site, you can see the brain is pretty much between the eyes and the ears, if using an bullet/pellet shoot directly down through the centre of the head between the eye and ear to hit the brain.
I use .22 pellet now after having a few .177 pellets passed straight through the head
(http://www.hsa.org.uk/images/publications/Brain%20Location-350x297.jpg)
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£225
it takes 9mm blanks and strangely enough when I spoke to the guy about them prior to purchase he said they are being used on water buffalo in the UK.
You may well know the place that uses it? I don't imagine there are many of them. ;D
Yea the guy I use used bolt guns, but apparently under new legislation water buffalo need a special bolt gun for the front of the head, as their skull is really thick.
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Gail Damerow (Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens) suggests shooting a .22 round into the rear of the head from just above the eyes is the best method of despatch. That ties in with the diagram Clansman helpfully posted. Seems my point of aim has been wrong!
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Captive bolt stunners don't require a firearm certificate, anyone over 18 can buy and use one.
Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. I wonder how I got my wires crossed then.
Think i've found the cause of your crossed wires. ;D
They used to be Section 1 FAC, they were declassified in 1998 :thumbsup:
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£225
it takes 9mm blanks and strangely enough when I spoke to the guy about them prior to purchase he said they are being used on water buffalo in the UK.
You may well know the place that uses it? I don't imagine there are many of them. ;D
Yea the guy I use used bolt guns, but apparently under new legislation water buffalo need a special bolt gun for the front of the head, as their skull is really thick.
Funnily enough I was on the phone to Mike at Calton Moor today ordering more blanks for mine so I asked him about this.
They now have a larger powered 9mm blank especially for water buffalo, big bulls etc so these are still legal to use on water buffalo as long as the higher powered cartridge is used.
The ones I use for pigs are the Red type, they will do anything up to cattle and horses, the Yellow type are for the heavy stuff, big bulls, water buffalo etc
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£225
it takes 9mm blanks and strangely enough when I spoke to the guy about them prior to purchase he said they are being used on water buffalo in the UK.
You may well know the place that uses it? I don't imagine there are many of them. ;D
Yea the guy I use used bolt guns, but apparently under new legislation water buffalo need a special bolt gun for the front of the head, as their skull is really thick.
Interesting..... How much would it cost though?
Funnily enough I was on the phone to Mike at Calton Moor today ordering more blanks for mine so I asked him about this.
They now have a larger powered 9mm blank especially for water buffalo, big bulls etc so these are still legal to use on water buffalo as long as the higher powered cartridge is used.
The ones I use for pigs are the Red type, they will do anything up to cattle and horses, the Yellow type are for the heavy stuff, big bulls, water buffalo etc
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The cartridges? same price, £16 for 50
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That diagram is really helpful. Thanks again.
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The cartridges? same price, £16 for 50
Alrighty I'll have a talk with my abbatoir :)
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Were you thinking of them for abbatoir use?
The only drawback with these I could see for abbatoir use is that the reload time is quite long, you need to unscrew the body from head, manually remove the spent cartridge, reload a new cartridge, screw it back together and cock it.
I suspect it could take 30 seconds or so whereas the Cash type etc are pretty much instantly reloaded and ready to go again
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Oh dear back to square one again. :'(
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A lot of them are similar I think Sally.
a wall mounted dispatcher that just holds the neck so the dislocation can be done by stretching the birds neck is a good aid.
The type that kill the bird by pushing the lever down on its neck are a crush type and should not be used.
Dislocation should always take place by stretching the neck.
This type has jaws which are not aligned. As the top piece is brought down, it will naturally go to one side or the other of the vertebra, so will force the two vertebrae apart. = dislocation , not crushing.
There's a pic of one here (http://s172.photobucket.com/user/GBov/media/Hubcat227.jpg.html)
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Yep I know the type and these are what the HSA regard as a crush type implement.
The vertebrae are indeed separated by forcing them in opposite directions but the dislocation is being achieved by putting pressure on the neck from either side until it breaks, whether the jaws are aligned or not still creates a crush action.
Think about the forces being applied to the neck just before it breaks.
The HSA say dislocation should happen by the stretching of the neck so the vertebrae are physically separated by the stretching action.
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With my hands, if I were strong enough, I could hold two ends of a chicken's neck and pull. The vertebrae would part, the cord would snap, and the chicken would die through having its neck broken.
I do not see how using a piece of metal to push two vertebrae apart is different. Apart from it's surer.
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The big problem with dislocation is the physical limitations of the person doing it. I have struggled sometimes and I'm no weakling. Was hefting bales as soon as I could walk. But the problem is that sometimes you come across one with a very sturdy neck, especially if you are taking them to 6 months or more. I would be 100% happy to do leghorns etc. no matter what the age but a big Ixworth or Marans is a different matter. Personally I went on the course provided by Ritchie and Pammy Riggs and got taught the right way to dislocate. We also got to practice on dead birds which Ritchie had electrically stunned and bled (he has all the gear and licences etc.). As they were organic Hubbards at 12 weeks (maybe 16?) it was easy. We also got to practice on a duck which was tough and a goose which I couldn't do at all. Coming off the course I was confident as there was a running joke on the day about me pulling the heads clean off. This year though I seem to have lost the knack, or the strength or something.
I think the airgun is a good idea as long as you are 100% sure where the brain is. A .22 is going to be lights out at close range.
One question on the BRNO stunner for Clansman. Does it render the bird dead or just unconscious? The reason the Americans tend to neck cut and also folk like the Rigg's electrically stun and then neck cut is that although the lights are out, the heart is still pumping so the bleeding is more effective and leads to a cleaner carcass.
Obviously dislocation or the airgun means death and at that point everything starts to slow down in terms of bleeding. Lovely subject this, isn't it?
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With my hands, if I were strong enough, I could hold two ends of a chicken's neck and pull. The vertebrae would part, the cord would snap, and the chicken would die through having its neck broken.
I do not see how using a piece of metal to push two vertebrae apart is different. Apart from it's surer.
There is no difference, I agree with you, a dead bird is a dead bird and whatever method you use if you end up with a dead bird you have succeeded, whether that's neck dislocation, shooting, bleeding, electrifying, decapitation etc etc they will all kill.
I'd argue the wall despatcher is surer, as Stereo says its all to do with the operator, someone competent at manual neck dislocation will kill a bird every time and exactly the same with the despatcher.
However we are talking about humane killing and at the moment wall mounted despatchers are considered an inhumane method of culling poultry, however efficient they may be.
You could argue cutting their heads off with a pair of garden shears or an axe is a 100% efficient way of killing poultry but its not a humane way
Stereo, the stunner is a stunner only, however I would seriously doubt any animal would ever recover from the blow, it will still need to be decapitated, bled or have its neck dislocated after stunning.
When I stun the pigs with mine there is no way they'd ever recover from the blow.
I bleed them after stunning but if I didn't they wouldn't regain conciousness.
Of course we also have Kosha and Halal killing here in the UK :)
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That's really what I'm trying to achieve. A perfect stun so there is no pain or awareness and enough time to bleed the bird, causing death in itself before the stun wears off.
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I think I'd struggle with mamual dislocation of a cockerel (let alone turkey) but I can manage it very neatly with a broomstick - you don't need nearly the same strength. I do it by hand with the crows and even then it takes a fair amount of strength to click the neck. The only problem with the broomstick is getting the position exactly right and that's where the humane part comes in - if you get it right, it's very quick and efficient but if you're slightly off and have to reposition I'm sure it wouldn't count as humane (I've had a couple I felt awful about even if they whole thing only took a few seconds). There's no way I'd want to go near fire arms just for this though - there's a whole bigger issue for me handling fire arms in a house full of children and with absolutely no background in guns. It's a complete catch 22 - with no abattoir around here that will handle poultry, I can't see many options really.
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Would an air pistol not do for you? They can be very easily locked away.
I now kill all larger birds with an air pistol or rifle.
I've always killed birds by manual neck dislocation and up until the last year or two i've managed no problem even with 30lb+ turkeys but time is taking its toll and i've struggled a bit the last year or two so moved to the air pistol.
I actually wish i'd done it a lot sooner, takes all the hassle out of the job.
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So I've used manual dislocation, manual dislocation with aid of a humane dispatcher (like pliers) which you use to hold the neck and can pull against, and the broomstick method. The latter is the only one the works for me with tougher birds, just can't get enough force to do the job quickly enough right first time every time with the others. I have an air rifle though so I am tempted to try that, how do,you position the bird to do this, and do you have a board behind or similar to stop the pellet?
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I hold them by the feet, rest the breast on the ground and shoot straight down through the head.
With big turkeys etc it might be easier to have two people but i manage ok.
Soft ground as a backstop
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I hold them by the feet, rest the breast on the ground and shoot straight down through the head.
With big turkeys etc it might be easier to have two people but i manage ok.
Soft ground as a backstop
Many thanks. Next time I have a big bird I'll try this.
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We have just had to dispatch a drake that was being picked on. They made him lame from which he never recovered and one eye was pretty poor.
He has been kept apart the whole summer but was so desperate to be with the others that I thought I would try again this morning.
It took them about 30 seconds to gang up on him again and I couldn't bear to watch so thought despatch was the best answer.
It was our first time and he wasn't for eating. He was wrapped up so that his wings couldn't flap and OH laid his head on a tree stump (duck not OH) and soothed him then quickly brought the chopped down on his neck.
It was very quick and I am not sure that anything else would have been any more humane.
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I put Muscovies in a traffic cone with the end cut off to allow the head and neck through. Then shoot them in the head with a .22 air pistol followed by cutting the neck to let them bleed out. It seems more humane than when I used the broom stick method as quicker and the bird is calmer. I'll try it with my cockerlels as had a bad experience trying to wring the neck of a big year old Orpington the other day.
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Very interesting thread, if a bit morbid! I had been toying with using my air rifle to dispatch my geese when the time comes, glad to see this is considered a reasonable method. Good chance I may chicken out of course, they might just become flappy ornamental lawnmowers!
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Thanks for this thread, I have also been looking for a way to humanely dispatch 3 turkeys in a few weeks time and having done cockerels in the past by neck dislocation I don't feel I am strong enough to do this properly with even bigger and stronger birds.
I was thinking of an air pistol / rifle and a shot through the back of the head into a straw bale, but am liking the look of that small captive bolt kit, it seems cheaper to buy than an airgun, too.
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Im also grateful for this advice on a topic that isn't very nice to ponder on. We are about to dispatch our first 2 surplus cockerels and tbh we have been putting it off. But we have now gone down the .22 air pistol route and feel a lot more confident about doing it humanely . So many thanks
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Just make sure with the pistols that they are of sufficient power.
the legal limit is 6ft lbs and a few will have less than 3ft lbs which is about as low as i'd go.
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Thanks Clansman, weve done the deed. Followed your excellent instructions and, although I wouldn't want to do it every day of the week, it was OK.
Ive PMd you Clansman. X
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Just had a thought- what would be the best type of airgun pellet for point blank poultry dispatch? If I'm going to do this, I want to do it right...
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I don't think type will make much difference at that range.
I use a .22 more from a safety point of view rather than anything else.
I had a few .177 go straight through the head but I don't think there's really much difference between a smaller hole right through your brain or a larger hole not all the way through, both ways kill just the same.
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Culled a 34lb turkey stag last night with my air pistol again no problem.
I just laid this one on its front whilst holding the legs in one hand and shot it with the other hand, it stayed quite still while I held it.
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I don't think stun guns are legal in this country but theoretically would that not be a good way to knock them out before throat cutting?
I know they use an electrified water bath commercially. What if you put them in a killing cone, zapped either side of the head with a stungun, then cut the throat or cut off the head?
Obviously that's only possible in countries where stun guns are legal.
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You can buy proper electrical stunners which work as you say but they are expensive.
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http://www.hsa.org.uk/stunning-and-slaughter-electrical-stunning/equipment-3 (http://www.hsa.org.uk/stunning-and-slaughter-electrical-stunning/equipment-3)
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Seems they don't advise use on anything bigger than a chicken.
But I'm yet to find a reasonably priced bolt stunner.
Does anyone know why they decided decapitation was inhumane? Seems like the swiftest way to me.
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Apparently the brain is still active for too long after decapitation for it to be regarded as humane...
No I don't get that one either! :innocent:
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The issue with decapitation is that apparently the brain can remain active for up to 30 seconds. So, in theory, the bird could be aware of what has just happened and still feel pain / distress. The one thing in it's favour is that it's job done and there is no chance of recovery or indeed, excessive suffering from a botched job. Neck pulling avoids this as the base of the brain is immediately (in theory) destroyed. But that's if you do it right. I've had too many second goes to like it any more.
There are many reports of people's removed heads looking around and blinking when that was a common punishment.
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Poultry one is here, £105
http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html (http://www.fgclassified.com/112855-the-brno-gun-uk-new-poultry-stunner/details.html)
(http://www.fgclassified.com/images/listings/2015-07/bigThmb/the_brno_gun_uk_new_poultry_stunner-1437652981-209-e.jpg)
Has anybody here used this device?
I ordered one after seeing it on here - now that it has arrived it looks quite flimsy and makes me worried it might not work. Grateful to hear from anyone who has used this particular device (admittedly much cheaper than anything similar, but maybe you get what you pay for...)
The pin is very narrow and pointy - less that 5mm - would that not make accurate placement difficult?
Also the trigger is quite hard to press - maybe to be expected in a spring loaded device, but that means that the barrel may move a bit when you trigger, which again would possibly affect the correct placement?
I need to dispatch our first patch of surplus cockerels asap, but it will be my first time and I'm terrified of getting it wrong... I have considered the broomstick method, but terrified of getting that wrong too... figured a stummer would be more fail-safe, but now that I have the device I'm not sure sure anymore.