[FrankBlack]

Hi folks.  Well, I'm in the no-mans-land between the insane, wasteful and mindless lifestyle of the Mon-Fri, 9-to-5 consumer and...well...hopefully a new life involving self-sufficiency, simple living and independence.  The word 'smallholding' is relatively new to me - and that may give you an indication of how little I know.  But I am working through John Seymour's brilliant book and am excited about what I'm learning.

I'm 44, worked in the NHS for many years (until I finally had enough last year) and will have a grand total of £90k to my name once my flat sells.  I realise that this a meagre sum in land or property terms, but I need to make it work for me somehow, so that I can buy at least an acre of land and build a modest house/ cottage/ cabin on it, if not in Scotland then somewhere in the world that this small amount of money can set me up (Siberia maybe?). 

I've reached a point in my life where I really am sick and tired of the dog-eat-dog life.  I want to move away from being a consumer; being dependent upon corporations and organisations supplying me with what I need to live.  And I want to learn all of the lifeskills that the majority of us sacrifice when we become dependent on others to supply our food, power, services etc.

The questions I'm trying to answer at present (via the internet) are:

1. How is land classified in Scotland and how do I go about looking for land that I can both build on and work for food?

2. How far will £90k get me if I try to make it stretch?

3. If Scotland is too expensive for such a venture, then where isn't?

I'm looking forward to learning as much as I possibly can from the good people of this forum and any constructive advice is always welcome.

All the best

[doganjo]

Hi Frank
I doubt of £90K will get you very  much up here.  I presume you are in England somewhere at the moment.  You can't even buy a decent flat in a town for that. You could try googling land for sale in Scotland, but I didn't have much luck. I'll PM you with a couple of ideas.
Annie

[FrankBlack]

Thanks Annie.  I didn't really think so.  I'm from Scotland but lived in England several years.

I know the price of flats, houses etc and property is extortionate in the UK.  I'm willing to consider living anywhere pretty much (not Siberia though).  As long as I have a hope of self-sufficiency...well, 90% anyway.

[Rosemary]

Hi and welcome. You might get some land in Scotland then you might want to try to get planning permission to self-build but the old PP is a bit of a minefield. You might be able to get a cottage in return for work - try the Scottish Farmer. Also see thread on here about a smallholding on the Black Isle and about how much of a living you can make at this.

[sausagesandcash]

Try Ireland. You might just be shocked at what you can get here. Scratch the one acre idea, the more land the better. One piece of advice though......stay away from the flood plains.

[RUSTYME]

Hello Frank ,
              sounds like you have a lot to learn mate !!! Thats not me trying to put you off at all , just saying that living the life you describe is very VERY different to the one you seem to be used to . However it is not an impossible task , just a very steep learning curve , and as good to read as J S's books are , they do not even begin to explain what it is really like to live a self sufficient life style. Don't get me wrong , I like his books ...but they really just scratch the surface and tell you that this can be done and that can be done , they are really  'ideas' books .
I have no idea on what land you may or may not get for your £90,000 , but if it has a house with it , it will most likely only be a deposit !!!! I bought my 6 acres 7 1/2 years ago now for £8,000 , but I couldn't get it for that now, even in the reccession !!
 Learning as you put it 'life skills' is a very personal thing really . How far do you want to go with backing off from the rat race ? How much are you prepared to go without ? How much physical work can you do ? So many things come into play , and each persons view will be different from the next.
 If you intend to live as free of modern life's necessities as you can, then will that include no mains electric ? no land line telephone ? even no house ? What I am saying is that there is a balance that only you can decide on . If you have all the above mentioned things then they have to be paid for somehow !!! Yes you can have a generator for electricity , but how will you run it ? I am not sure if you can still buy red diesel now , so that leaves you running it on heating oil @40p a litre or more, as normal diesel would bankrupt you in no time . If you have a modern fast genny it will drink fuel like it is going out of fashion ...(which it is really  ) so you would need to go for an old lister type genny . These are available brand new from India now , they used the old originals as patterns for the moulds and cast brand new parts from scrap . But even one of those will set you back the best part of £1,000 . However they will run on just about any oil you can get . Proper diesel , heating oil , old engine oil , rapeseed/canola oil , sunflower oil , even filtered used cooking oil . You can also grow your own rapeseed/sunflower/hemp , and get your fuel from that and use the waste as cake feed for animals .
 There are so many different ways you can go living this sort of life , but you have to work out what you want to have , and what you are prepared to give up , before jumping in too deep . It is however almost impossible to get off the roundabout completely , there will always be something you need to pay for , and it isn't easy to do that without a steady wage comming in .
 In no way is this post intended to put you off ... I say go for it ... but really do your homework first ... I live this life and have done so for some time . I still intend to go further off grid and be more self reliant than I am now. However , I have been doing the things needed to be able to live this way on and off for 40 years now , and I am still learning something new all the time.
 If you want to ask any questions about this different way of living just ask , I will do my best to help with any specifics that I can but , I tend to do things my way , and that may not always be the best way or even the legal way sometimes....  (I bend the rules to suit my way!!! ) .

Cheers

Russ 

[Canadian Sheepfarmer]

A 4 bedroom house and barn, grain bins and 40 acres sold about a mile from here last month for $40,000, what's that 25K in pounds? This would leave you with ample monies to buy a milking cow and some beef cows and a small flock of sheep, plus enough to live on for a year.

Not everyone can get here but if you can then it's still the last best west, and it is only going to get better with climate change.

[FrankBlack]

Thanks a lot for all the great replies. 

Russ, I appreciate all you've written and am not put off by it.  This isn't a whim for me, it's actually a development of my existing attitude to life and it's not from a place of just fancying a change or having a bad reaction to society.  The conventional way of living is just fundamentally wrong for me, in my view - ecologically, ethically and dare I say spiritually and existentially.  So the change is actually from a really deep need to live more in tune with myself and my  surroundings and to step out from under as many agencies, organisations and corporations that interfere or hold some unwelcomed authority over my life as possible.  The key word is 'freedom' and I also know that's a relative term.  I don't want to adapt myself to the corporate-run world any more because to go along wiith it is to collude with something that is damaging and never brought me happiness.  I'm opting out (as far as any of us still can).

I've made pretty big changes in my life as I've gone along, largely as a result of following what I believe to be right within myself.  I've lived well and in comfort and also lived simply and rough and have a sense of the extremes.  I know that this move away from the conventional way of living involves a kind of evolutionary leap in the heart and head and all I can do is get involved and learn as much as I can from people who walk like they talk.  If it's not for me then I'll make the relevant changes and do something else.  Even then my  attitude will remain the same - preserving independence, self-reliance and simplicity, whether it's with dung on my wellies or tapping on a Blackberry (God forbid).  But I know I can make this work.  All I need is the right location/ economy to make the 'little' money I have work for me and the direct learning experience - starting very small and building up what I can do over time.  Part of modern thinking is to believe that we don't know enough or somehow other people are more expert than us or that they hold some mysterious skill or knowledge that lies beyond our understanding.  I don't believe this - I've learned that I can do pretty much whatever I turn my hand to as long as my heart is in it.

Anyway, speech over!  Keep the ideas/ advice coming.  Ireland sounds appealing (and rainy!) and, yes, planning permission and buying land seems intentionally obscure and confusing.  If anyone can point me to an idiot's guide on the matter I'd appreciate it.  Green belt, brown field, etc etc???

Canada sounds great CS, but the immigration conditions are so prohibitive these days that I doubt I'd get in, even with a Batchelors and 2 Masters degrees!  I'd go in a minute if I could.   It saddens me that I'll likely not be able to do this in my home country - Scotland.  But I'll adapt my idea to whatever economy supports it.

[HappyHippy]

Hi & welcome to the forum from a fellow scot 
I love your reasons for doing what you're thinking of - I totally 'get it', I'm lucky to be in the situation where I was able to move home, to the farm I grew up on, to begin/continue with the journey. And what a journey it's been !
There are highs (mostly winds and gales LOL) and lows, but whatever is thrown at us we just 'roll with the punches'. Smallholding in itself is unlikely to provide enough income to keep you going - most of us have to suppliment our lifestyle with some form of work - be it part time, full time, working from home - you've just got to find the right balance that's going to work for you. For example would a caravan with no mains services or running water be too much of a stretch ? I know that I couldn't function without my broadband ! (Well, okay so I could function - but I wouldn't be able to generate much income  I do wish you all the very best of luck and hope you find what you're looking for. Maybe this would be a starting point ?http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Land-Smallholding-Peebles-yard-6-acres-Equestrian-Uses_W0QQitemZ270480384767QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_HG_Property_RL?hash=item3ef9e322ff I don't know of much else that's as cheap as this at the mo - but I'll keep my eyes and ears open and give you a shout if anything else turns up.
Karen x

[FrankBlack]

Thanks for that Karen.  Yes, that doesn't look bad for the money.  Just need to get the flat sold first and then do some serious searching. 

I'd be prepared to live very basically for a while if it meant getting the right piece of land etc.  I don't mind a remote location but some sunshine/ dry weather during the year is a must I think!  (I can do without broadband too).  I even envisaged camping or some temporary shelter for a while  on newly purchased land, weather permitting, and as long as the planning permission was on its way and I could keep my personal vision in sight.

I'm at the 'demystification' stage I guess - just trying to get a bigger, clearer picture of what's involved in weaning myself off capitalism.  Ideally, eventually having as little reliance upon money as possible.

[sandy]

Hello and welcome, really really hope you get something...you will!!! What about trying out the place in on the Black Isle, it's posted in Marketplace...you never know, could be a good start.....

[FrankBlack]

Thanks Sandy.  I'll check that out now...

[RUSTYME]

a nice cheap Luton transit , kitted out on the inside would be far better than any form of camping , and less likely to get any attention from the planners. They take a very dim view of caravans or even tents. I know many people who have gone the life in a tent route , and boy do they have fun with the planners and the council in general . Trying to live off grid is much more complicated than just doing it , just about every council body will have something to say against it, and if any land you get doesn't have planning ...oh my god .. by having even a tent up , you are changing agricultural land to residential  and not paying rates on it !!!
 What you can have though is a horse stable . It has to be for a working horse though ...then all you need is gas cooker/heater and away you go . You must never put a chimney in though ....instant change to residential then  !!!! Very basic but just a few bits and bobs that would take you minutes to shift if need be. It really is a complete mine field when you try to live on a bit of land . It is one of their pet hates, and they will move heaven and earth to prevent you from doing so .

cheers

Russ

[FrankBlack]

You certainly know your stuff.  I knew the UK had really gone down hill after Blair's erosion of our civil liberties, but this sounds Draconian Russ!  What on earth is wrong with this country that the authorities need to hinder the basic needs and freedoms of the citizen to such a degree?

I guess to avoid all this we'd be talking about buying an existing, established smallholding then?  In which case it'll likely be prohibitively expensive for the likes of me.

Sounds like I'll have to look abroad afterall...

[RUSTYME]

There are always round it though Frank !!
 You sometimes have to think outside the box and play the buggers at their own game , and they have to go by the rules in the main ... I don't !!!!
 The erosion of liberties is now about to turn into a complete removal of them ...long live the EU eh ? Thank god they stopped that arsehole  Tony  Blair from getting into power though ....still no doubt he will still be around next time we get to vote for a new leader of the EU ...er oh sorry ...we didn't get a say in it this time , how did that come about ? isn't the EU a democracy ? NO .....

cheers

Russ