[shygirl]

so if you are feeding whole grains of 10% and want to increase the protein - how do you know how much protein to add to get to 18%? or is it a guess?

[Kitchen Cottage]

I am afraid I have to admit to "dialling up the crazy here".... this year (and last) I have spent drying nettles (and I have tonnes!) as well as feeding them fresh to the horse at night (picked before I go to work to "de-sting") them, I add them to porridge for my hens (4 ex batterys', 1 sussex and 3 sussex crosses).  This does what I want, I take them off layers over winter which reduces eggs off the ex batteries but I still get eggs from all of them.  A neighbour told me this.  Otherwise the battery hens keep laying full pelt and I'm afraid would cark it through sheer exhaustion!!!

[Castle Farm]

When 'crude protien' is mentioned it's the guide not the actual food that is crude.

The only time poultry needs more than enough to support life is when in full lay or to replace feathers after a moult.

Breeds or strains of a breed will only get to the weight they were bred to attain, you can feed them whatever you like, but they will not put weight on once they have reached the birds limit, the rest goes to fat.
I run my birds on about 12% and the rest they get themselves.

[AndynJ]

just curious what dog food you use. is there much meat in a tin these days? i have heard horror stories about the dog food business. 

We have recently started to add raw rabbit to our dog food, funny he has started to chase rabbits now as well, didn't bother before.

[shygirl]

just curious what dog food you use. is there much meat in a tin these days? i have heard horror stories about the dog food business. 

We have recently started to add raw rabbit to our dog food, funny he has started to chase rabbits now as well, didn't bother before.

better not feed him mutton then 

[Clansman]

I've been reading this thread with interest.

I'd be VERY wary of feeding chickens an all grain diet until you have looked into chicken nutrition in depth.

whole grains are a favourite with chickens but provide an imbalanced diet.

Your chickens will get plenty calories but not receive the required levels of protein, vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc etc

To combat this they can either free range and (hopefully) they will pick up enough to balance their diet, or they will eat more grain (more calories) to increase their intake of these things they are missing.

Don't get me wrong, they can live quite happily on this sort of diet, however it is quite possible, if not probable that their diet will be imbalanced and that they will not be running on full capacity which means slower growth, fewer eggs, poorer fertility etc

We could live eating McDonalds burgers every day,  its not our ideal diet but we could live on them if its all we got.

You could as you have suggested supplement the grain diet with other things but you really would need to carefully work out a balanced diet and blend it together.

or just keep to the formulated feeds, since they have already done the research and the blending for you.

Yes it sounds nice to think we can keep animals on whole grains etc but in reality we'd just be keeping them alive, we're most likely not going to be providing them with a regular, balanced diet.

[Calvadnack]

I've had a very successful  2 years following Castle Farm's grain mix supplemented by soaked micronised peas (called flaked micronised peas by Mole Valley).  My ladies have laid brilliantly despite being shut behind electric fencing.  They didn't like them dry, but adore them soaked.

[ladyK]

Yes it sounds nice to think we can keep animals on whole grains etc but in reality we'd just be keeping them alive, we're most likely not going to be providing them with a regular, balanced diet.

Sorry, but I'm really suspicious of this argument (I mean generally, not personally). We all want to do the best for our animals, of course, so there is this big fear cloud hanging over nutrition - unless feeding is 'left to the professionals' all we are ever going to do for our animals is 'just keeping them alive'. Whatever happened to nature?!

To me this just screams of feed industry propaganda. The same argument is being used to tell us that carnivore cats and dogs will be 'healthier' if fed 'balanced' kibble (yeah, the nutrient figures maybe 'balanced' on paper, but what is actually in that stuff?!), lambs will be bigger & fitter if fed concentrates, feeding chickens soya pellets is better and healthier than a traditional diet of corn and free ranging, and I'm sure the list goes on.

I don't mean to say that one should not put care into getting the feed right for the animal, on the contrary: free range systems, good pasture management, knowing your animals and carefully and thoughtfully supplementing where and when needed, all this takes time and effort; all the while the feed industry is trying to tell us that their kibble, pellets & concentrates can easily & conveniently replace good animal husbandry.
I remain unconvinced.

[Steph Hen]

I think dogs and cats do better on a diet of rabbits, pigeons and mice, and whole food table scraps. But its a little different for chickens if we want them to be really productive, more so than they might otherwise be. But its horses for courses -

My chickens eat a huge amount of grass and clover, even though they have pellets and grain ad. lib. I'm sure they get a lot from this, (not to mention all the bugs/slugs and other plants) and suppose the chickens you see kept on bare soil and tall weeds or bark chippings or something else would need a far more complete ration. ~Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the 'other stuff' is diluting the perfectly ballanced pellet ration, but they are growing at an acceptable rate, no illness to date,    and they're really happy. When I get into breeding and they're in seperate pens (which will presumably run out of grass   ) I'll be more careful with feeding a ballanced diet, and will read up on it then.

[Clansman]

all the while the feed industry is trying to tell us that their kibble, pellets & concentrates can easily & conveniently replace good animal husbandry.
I remain unconvinced.

I don't think for one second anyone is saying that a balanced formulated ration replaces good husbandry.

Ok let me put it another way.

Why do you think commercial poultry farmers around the world  aren't just feeding their birds on whole grains and throwing in a few peas??

Yes it sounds great to have birds living the natural way but I suspect that very few of us have the space and the land rich enough in nutrients and resources to support this (especially in the colder months)  its certainly not viable commercially.

cost vs performance is always the battle with commercial poultry, they are provided with a ration that will give optimal results across the flock.

They could be fed a better ration and a percentage of the birds would respond to that and perform better but the rest wouldn't, therefore that becomes non cost effective (less profit)

On the flip side, if fed on a poorer ration the lower performing birds would do no worse but the higher performers would lose out, which again is non cost effective.

There are no "dodgy" things going into poultry rations today, the legislation covering it is VERY strict.

years ago they did recycle offal etc into the food and use growth promoting compounds etc but no more.

at the end of the day everything is just made up of protein, carbohydrates, fat etc so although I personally had no problem with the offal thing i can understand why it was stopped.

poultry will eat far worse things on their own than we would ever feed them 

Now if you have a few birds running around that are basically pets or you aren't relying on them to produce cost effectively, OR they have sufficiently rich pickings from free range then fair enough, you can feed them as you see fit, in fact that may well be closer to their natural state, they will probably have an unbalanced diet which they can live on quite happily but they will most likely not be functioning at full capacity (compared to commercially fed birds)

I'm not in any way saying these birds will be starving or hungry, they won't, they'll just not be getting a balanced optimal diet.

A balanced diet which has been researched over many many years and cost many millions of pounds to produce.

I feed formulated foods but i throw in a lot of extras, they get fruit, greens and insects (I breed crickets and maggots) and they get their share of worms and stuff when i'm in the garden.

They love that stuff but i'm actually unbalancing their diet by doing it.

I know they would perform better, grow/lay/breed better if just left on the pellets but I have the backup of knowing the pellets are there and everything they require is in there.

I'm rambling again!! 

Izzy is looking for ingredients to add to a grain only diet so i'd have to go with previous suggestions, greens, fruit, bugs (a good compost heap will be full of worms) and even any leftovers you have (although this is currently illegal  )

[Castle Farm]

Iv'e been feeding my birds for over 50 years on a grain diet and I have no problems getting eggs, hatching and rearing birds.

I know what they eat. There is no chance that some sub standard additive has been pressed into a pellet and managed to make a bigger profit for the mills and feed stores.

Commercial poultry keepers feed mash and pellets because it's easier for them, not for the benifit of the birds locked in sheds and cages.

As far as strict regulations on what goes into animal feeds all I can say to that is Horse meat.

[ZaktheLad]

Off topic slightly  but just wanted to say to Castle Farm that the poultry on your facebook page look absolutely spectacular     

[Victorian Farmer]

I think if you no whit you're stock need it dosenmater whot folk think I do it my way I do think treats porridge dog food etc is better for them .we don't no whot we eat most of the time .There is more hart desise and cancer naw .so I will do it my way there is folk that iv sold hens too that have never fed pellets grain etc just there own food and these hens looks grate on rice pasta etc .

[Clansman]

Iv'e been feeding my birds for over 50 years on a grain diet and I have no problems getting eggs, hatching and rearing birds.

I didn't say you would have problems feeding grain, I said that on a formulated ration you would achieve better performance

I know what they eat. There is no chance that some sub standard additive has been pressed into a pellet and managed to make a bigger profit for the mills and feed stores.

Do you grow your own grain and food for them? do you know what has been sprayed on that grain and food?

If the answer to both is yes then fair enough and I will agree with you

Commercial poultry keepers feed mash and pellets because it's easier for them, not for the benifit of the birds locked in sheds and cages.

Again, I didn't say they do it for the benefit of the birds, I said its to maximise performance and therefore their profit

As far as strict regulations on what goes into animal feeds all I can say to that is Horse meat.

That was in OUR feed  and yes the system can be abused by the dishonest but I can turn that one round on you too..

unless you are actually growing your own grain, then you don't know whats in or on that either.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here, i'm just trying to put the point across that research has been done into the diet of poultry for many years, costing vast amounts of money.

This research has shown us very precise dietary requirements for all types of poultry, yet here we are trying to feed them grain, beans and grass and expecting that to do the same job as a formulated diet..  it doesn't.

Again it depends what you want from your birds, mine are for eggs and meat, i try to do it cost effectively and I know i couldn't get the same results feeding them on whole grains.

I'd love to do that, i really would love to keep poultry on wheat and grass and get the same results but its just not how it works in the real world.

I can see parallels between this subject and the free range vs enclosed argument.

My birds are kept in the garden, they live in huts with decent sized runs, the occasionally get out for a wander around the garden to do a bit of foraging (when i'm there) but they are mainly kept in enclosed runs.

I have a near neighbour who keeps hens on free range all the time and berates me and cries cruelty because I don't do the same.

She has lost her entire flock twice to foxes in the last three years as well as the odd bird and chick to crows, gulls, cats etc

Is she right to free range and risk predators taking her birds?

Am I right to keep mine penned in?

I understand the "free range" thinking, i'd love to do it myself but I just wouldn't put my birds at risk.

Am I being cruel?? Is she??

The feed question we're discussing runs along similar lines.

Yes ideally we'd all love to feed our birds corn but we wouldn't get the best out of them by doing that.

some balance is required.

[Castle Farm]

This is a subject I have studied for many years and I have no reason to change to a 'man made feed'.

There are many problems caused by feeding pellets. It's a one size fits all feed that supposes all breeds are the same and all have the same calcium and protien needs, which if you compare a bantam to a Brahma or RIR you should suspect the needs will be different.

18% protien along with up to 4% calcuim would be far to much to feed to say a bantam in a moult and not laying. The calcium would over load her liver and kidneys and eventually kill her.

The only time you need that amount of calcium is when a bird bred for laying is churning out eggs day after day. The type of birds kept by commercial poultry farmers who have no direct sunlight and accsess to green feed.

Surely if you keep a few hens in the back garden for eggs you want to feed them a natural diet. Whatever that bird eats comes out in the eggs that you eat.

Not long ago they were putting hormone enhances in the feed to get the hens to lay more and that came out in the eggs. I just hope they have stopped doing that now, but they won't tell you if they are will they No wonder kids reach puberty earlier than they did.

You are what you eat and so are the chickens that supply eggs and meat.

I have no problems with anyone feeding pellets to thier birds, but I don't think it's for the birds wellbeing.