The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Izzy on September 11, 2013, 03:24:23 pm
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For a number of reasons I'm thinking about changing to a whole grain diet for my chooks. But all I've read says that layers need an 18% protein diet, which indeed is the content of layers' pellets. But poultry grain is only 10% protein. It even says on the bag it is a complementary feed. Others must also be feeding whole diets so what do you add? Peas? Soya? Lentils? I'd be interested to hear TASers views and/or of their experiences if you've experimented.
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Good question - I have been wondering about the same thing.
I'm always trying to avoid processed food and thinking this should be possible (and good) for my animals too.
I recently stumbled over this interesting link about feeding chickens:
http://greenmeadowpoultry.co.uk/feeding.html (http://greenmeadowpoultry.co.uk/feeding.html) (see 'feeding straights' section).
Haven't tired that yet myself, but makes a lot of sense to me. I just ordered the book she refers to, will read that with great interest!
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I have always fed an all grain diet, as I like to know what my birds are eating and you don't know whats in pellets, besides which millions of chicken all over the world have never seen a pellet and they do alright.
The birds do very well on it, BUT need free range to make up the difference in protien. I have about 300 birds here including chicks and growers.
Chicks start off on chick crumbs and as soon as the can handle grain they go onto it. I use Wheat, cut maize and rolled Barley with Cider vinegar and cod liver oil.
If you only have a few birds it's easy to make up the shortfall on protien using ether vegitable or animal protien.
Just read the labels and see what there is in it., beware of salt content.
Dried milk powder is very good (animal) Spinach and other greens including peas and beans also can be used.
Fresh grass and greens contain a high protien.
You will see a drop in egg numbers, especially at this time of year, but your birds will be healthier for it.
More on feeding on my web page.
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The birds do very well on it, BUT need free range to make up the difference in protien.
Fresh grass and greens contain a high protien.
Not being funny but is 10sqm per bird free range? We have three paddocks of 400 sq m each and the 40 hens move in the first of the month to fresh grass, so each paddock is rested for 2 months before birds go back on. The grass is good with lots of clover. We're also planting comfrey between the trees.
Do you think this might support a grain only diet?
I ask 'cos they aren't really free free range - they are in pens.
The scratchers are free free range. Should I feed mixed corn ad lib?
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hmm interested in this as although we only keep a few the idea of just using mixed grain appeals, the pellets never seem as popular with the birds and the grain is a fair bit cheaper...
if feeding adlib how do you add things like cod liver oil?
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free range should not be a problem. Worms and such are made of protein ;) . How does porridge sound to you, cooked with half milk/water? It's my cure all food and they just love it :chook: :&>
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plenty of beetles should do it. if they are restricted space wise they you will have to provide something. a piece of dried bread is very handy for absorbing liquids such as CLO. cooked egg whites maybe?
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well I'm on the same thing i mix turkey crumbs up with the grain .The turkey starter is 16/ per cent or more i also give dog food big tin £1 if they are molting or its very cold they all seem fine
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I've heard of people hanging up dead rabbits or roadkill in summer and letting the ensuing maggots fall out for the birds to eat as a free source of added protein.
I think peas and beans might be less contoversial though...
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Ours free range they have a 25kg pellet feeder, a 10kg barley feeder outside and we have just started giving them a mix of barley and sunflower mix of sprouted seeds they go mad for it, we have planted some kholi rabi and kale for over the winter we also dry any fish remains and grind them, we live 3 minutes from the sea with an oyster bed their as big as your hand (my hand) huge.
So fish & shell fish are free
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well I'm on the same thing i mix turkey crumbs up with the grain .The turkey starter is 16/ per cent or more i also give dog food big tin £1 if they are molting or its very cold they all seem fine
just curious what dog food you use. is there much meat in a tin these days? i have heard horror stories about the dog food business. :o
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Thank you all for the links, info and encouragement. Our 8 girls spend summer in an area 20m x 30m which is half mowed and half rough. In winter the have a couple of acres of lawn, shrubbery and woodland. So it sounds as though they could survive on 'straight' grains plus their own foraging. I know they like the porridge pan on winter mornings.
I have just looked at our (human) wholefood wholesalers catalogue and they supply 25kg split peas at £28. I guess they'd need to be soaked or boiled.
Rosemary the fact that you rotate your flocks' range probably means that they have a better diet than many free rangers.
In winter ours spend 99% of their day in the wood......where the compost is located.
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I have just looked at our (human) wholefood wholesalers catalogue and they supply 25kg split peas at £28. I guess they'd need to be soaked or boiled.
try peas at the farm supplies shop.
we had fed them uncooked to livestock (admittedly not poultry). you just need them bite size. we have a mill thats very handy.
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mixed corn contains lentils and split peas :&>
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Some poultry mixes may include peas/legumes, but not the two whose info I've got to hand.
Fancy Feed Poultry Mixed Corn wheat, cut maize, soya oil
Wilson's Scottish Poultry Mix wheat, barley, kibbled maize, oats
I'm hoping to find a source of rolled peas.
Thank you all. Will let you know how it goes.
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so if you are feeding whole grains of 10% and want to increase the protein - how do you know how much protein to add to get to 18%? or is it a guess?
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I am afraid I have to admit to "dialling up the crazy here".... this year (and last) I have spent drying nettles (and I have tonnes!) as well as feeding them fresh to the horse at night (picked before I go to work to "de-sting") them, I add them to porridge for my hens (4 ex batterys', 1 sussex and 3 sussex crosses). This does what I want, I take them off layers over winter which reduces eggs off the ex batteries but I still get eggs from all of them. A neighbour told me this. Otherwise the battery hens keep laying full pelt and I'm afraid would cark it through sheer exhaustion!!!
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When 'crude protien' is mentioned it's the guide not the actual food that is crude.
The only time poultry needs more than enough to support life is when in full lay or to replace feathers after a moult.
Breeds or strains of a breed will only get to the weight they were bred to attain, you can feed them whatever you like, but they will not put weight on once they have reached the birds limit, the rest goes to fat.
I run my birds on about 12% and the rest they get themselves.
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just curious what dog food you use. is there much meat in a tin these days? i have heard horror stories about the dog food business. :o
We have recently started to add raw rabbit to our dog food, funny he has started to chase rabbits now as well, didn't bother before.
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just curious what dog food you use. is there much meat in a tin these days? i have heard horror stories about the dog food business. :o
We have recently started to add raw rabbit to our dog food, funny he has started to chase rabbits now as well, didn't bother before.
better not feed him mutton then :roflanim: :roflanim:
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I've been reading this thread with interest.
I'd be VERY wary of feeding chickens an all grain diet until you have looked into chicken nutrition in depth.
whole grains are a favourite with chickens but provide an imbalanced diet.
Your chickens will get plenty calories but not receive the required levels of protein, vitamins, minerals, amino acids etc etc
To combat this they can either free range and (hopefully) they will pick up enough to balance their diet, or they will eat more grain (more calories) to increase their intake of these things they are missing.
Don't get me wrong, they can live quite happily on this sort of diet, however it is quite possible, if not probable that their diet will be imbalanced and that they will not be running on full capacity which means slower growth, fewer eggs, poorer fertility etc
We could live eating McDonalds burgers every day, its not our ideal diet but we could live on them if its all we got.
You could as you have suggested supplement the grain diet with other things but you really would need to carefully work out a balanced diet and blend it together.
or just keep to the formulated feeds, since they have already done the research and the blending for you.
Yes it sounds nice to think we can keep animals on whole grains etc but in reality we'd just be keeping them alive, we're most likely not going to be providing them with a regular, balanced diet.
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I've had a very successful 2 years following Castle Farm's grain mix supplemented by soaked micronised peas (called flaked micronised peas by Mole Valley). My ladies have laid brilliantly despite being shut behind electric fencing. They didn't like them dry, but adore them soaked.
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Yes it sounds nice to think we can keep animals on whole grains etc but in reality we'd just be keeping them alive, we're most likely not going to be providing them with a regular, balanced diet.
Sorry, but I'm really suspicious of this argument (I mean generally, not personally). We all want to do the best for our animals, of course, so there is this big fear cloud hanging over nutrition - unless feeding is 'left to the professionals' all we are ever going to do for our animals is 'just keeping them alive'. Whatever happened to nature?!
To me this just screams of feed industry propaganda. The same argument is being used to tell us that carnivore cats and dogs will be 'healthier' if fed 'balanced' kibble (yeah, the nutrient figures maybe 'balanced' on paper, but what is actually in that stuff?!), lambs will be bigger & fitter if fed concentrates, feeding chickens soya pellets is better and healthier than a traditional diet of corn and free ranging, and I'm sure the list goes on.
I don't mean to say that one should not put care into getting the feed right for the animal, on the contrary: free range systems, good pasture management, knowing your animals and carefully and thoughtfully supplementing where and when needed, all this takes time and effort; all the while the feed industry is trying to tell us that their kibble, pellets & concentrates can easily & conveniently replace good animal husbandry.
I remain unconvinced.
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I think dogs and cats do better on a diet of rabbits, pigeons and mice, and whole food table scraps. But its a little different for chickens if we want them to be really productive, more so than they might otherwise be. But its horses for courses -
My chickens eat a huge amount of grass and clover, even though they have pellets and grain ad. lib. I'm sure they get a lot from this, (not to mention all the bugs/slugs and other plants) and suppose the chickens you see kept on bare soil and tall weeds or bark chippings or something else would need a far more complete ration. ~Maybe I'm wrong, maybe the 'other stuff' is diluting the perfectly ballanced pellet ration, but they are growing at an acceptable rate, no illness to date, :fc: and they're really happy. When I get into breeding and they're in seperate pens (which will presumably run out of grass :( ) I'll be more careful with feeding a ballanced diet, and will read up on it then.
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all the while the feed industry is trying to tell us that their kibble, pellets & concentrates can easily & conveniently replace good animal husbandry.
I remain unconvinced.
I don't think for one second anyone is saying that a balanced formulated ration replaces good husbandry.
Ok let me put it another way.
Why do you think commercial poultry farmers around the world aren't just feeding their birds on whole grains and throwing in a few peas??
Yes it sounds great to have birds living the natural way but I suspect that very few of us have the space and the land rich enough in nutrients and resources to support this (especially in the colder months) its certainly not viable commercially.
cost vs performance is always the battle with commercial poultry, they are provided with a ration that will give optimal results across the flock.
They could be fed a better ration and a percentage of the birds would respond to that and perform better but the rest wouldn't, therefore that becomes non cost effective (less profit)
On the flip side, if fed on a poorer ration the lower performing birds would do no worse but the higher performers would lose out, which again is non cost effective.
There are no "dodgy" things going into poultry rations today, the legislation covering it is VERY strict.
years ago they did recycle offal etc into the food and use growth promoting compounds etc but no more.
at the end of the day everything is just made up of protein, carbohydrates, fat etc so although I personally had no problem with the offal thing i can understand why it was stopped.
poultry will eat far worse things on their own than we would ever feed them ;D
Now if you have a few birds running around that are basically pets or you aren't relying on them to produce cost effectively, OR they have sufficiently rich pickings from free range then fair enough, you can feed them as you see fit, in fact that may well be closer to their natural state, they will probably have an unbalanced diet which they can live on quite happily but they will most likely not be functioning at full capacity (compared to commercially fed birds)
I'm not in any way saying these birds will be starving or hungry, they won't, they'll just not be getting a balanced optimal diet.
A balanced diet which has been researched over many many years and cost many millions of pounds to produce.
I feed formulated foods but i throw in a lot of extras, they get fruit, greens and insects (I breed crickets and maggots) and they get their share of worms and stuff when i'm in the garden.
They love that stuff but i'm actually unbalancing their diet by doing it.
I know they would perform better, grow/lay/breed better if just left on the pellets but I have the backup of knowing the pellets are there and everything they require is in there.
I'm rambling again!! :innocent:
Izzy is looking for ingredients to add to a grain only diet so i'd have to go with previous suggestions, greens, fruit, bugs (a good compost heap will be full of worms) and even any leftovers you have (although this is currently illegal :innocent:)
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Iv'e been feeding my birds for over 50 years on a grain diet and I have no problems getting eggs, hatching and rearing birds.
I know what they eat. There is no chance that some sub standard additive has been pressed into a pellet and managed to make a bigger profit for the mills and feed stores.
Commercial poultry keepers feed mash and pellets because it's easier for them, not for the benifit of the birds locked in sheds and cages.
As far as strict regulations on what goes into animal feeds all I can say to that is Horse meat. :thumbsup:
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Off topic slightly :innocent: but just wanted to say to Castle Farm that the poultry on your facebook page look absolutely spectacular :thumbsup:
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I think if you no whit you're stock need it dosenmater whot folk think I do it my way I do think treats porridge dog food etc is better for them .we don't no whot we eat most of the time .There is more hart desise and cancer naw .so I will do it my way there is folk that iv sold hens too that have never fed pellets grain etc just there own food and these hens looks grate on rice pasta etc .
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Iv'e been feeding my birds for over 50 years on a grain diet and I have no problems getting eggs, hatching and rearing birds.
I didn't say you would have problems feeding grain, I said that on a formulated ration you would achieve better performance
I know what they eat. There is no chance that some sub standard additive has been pressed into a pellet and managed to make a bigger profit for the mills and feed stores.
Do you grow your own grain and food for them? do you know what has been sprayed on that grain and food?
If the answer to both is yes then fair enough and I will agree with you
Commercial poultry keepers feed mash and pellets because it's easier for them, not for the benifit of the birds locked in sheds and cages.
Again, I didn't say they do it for the benefit of the birds, I said its to maximise performance and therefore their profit
As far as strict regulations on what goes into animal feeds all I can say to that is Horse meat. :thumbsup:
That was in OUR feed ;D and yes the system can be abused by the dishonest but I can turn that one round on you too..
unless you are actually growing your own grain, then you don't know whats in or on that either.
I'm not trying to be argumentative here, i'm just trying to put the point across that research has been done into the diet of poultry for many years, costing vast amounts of money.
This research has shown us very precise dietary requirements for all types of poultry, yet here we are trying to feed them grain, beans and grass and expecting that to do the same job as a formulated diet.. :-\ it doesn't.
Again it depends what you want from your birds, mine are for eggs and meat, i try to do it cost effectively and I know i couldn't get the same results feeding them on whole grains.
I'd love to do that, i really would love to keep poultry on wheat and grass and get the same results but its just not how it works in the real world.
I can see parallels between this subject and the free range vs enclosed argument.
My birds are kept in the garden, they live in huts with decent sized runs, the occasionally get out for a wander around the garden to do a bit of foraging (when i'm there) but they are mainly kept in enclosed runs.
I have a near neighbour who keeps hens on free range all the time and berates me and cries cruelty because I don't do the same.
She has lost her entire flock twice to foxes in the last three years as well as the odd bird and chick to crows, gulls, cats etc
Is she right to free range and risk predators taking her birds?
Am I right to keep mine penned in?
I understand the "free range" thinking, i'd love to do it myself but I just wouldn't put my birds at risk.
Am I being cruel?? Is she??
The feed question we're discussing runs along similar lines.
Yes ideally we'd all love to feed our birds corn but we wouldn't get the best out of them by doing that.
some balance is required.
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This is a subject I have studied for many years and I have no reason to change to a 'man made feed'.
There are many problems caused by feeding pellets. It's a one size fits all feed that supposes all breeds are the same and all have the same calcium and protien needs, which if you compare a bantam to a Brahma or RIR you should suspect the needs will be different.
18% protien along with up to 4% calcuim would be far to much to feed to say a bantam in a moult and not laying. The calcium would over load her liver and kidneys and eventually kill her.
The only time you need that amount of calcium is when a bird bred for laying is churning out eggs day after day. The type of birds kept by commercial poultry farmers who have no direct sunlight and accsess to green feed.
Surely if you keep a few hens in the back garden for eggs you want to feed them a natural diet. Whatever that bird eats comes out in the eggs that you eat.
Not long ago they were putting hormone enhances in the feed to get the hens to lay more and that came out in the eggs. I just hope they have stopped doing that now, but they won't tell you if they are will they :innocent: No wonder kids reach puberty earlier than they did.
You are what you eat and so are the chickens that supply eggs and meat.
I have no problems with anyone feeding pellets to thier birds, but I don't think it's for the birds wellbeing.
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18% protien along with up to 4% calcuim would be far to much to feed to say a bantam in a moult and not laying. The calcium would over load her liver and kidneys and eventually kill her.
As it would a larger bird, i don't understand the argument there.
I would like to think no one is feeding a layers ration to non laying and/or moulting birds.
That is poor husbandry, not a problem with the ration.
The differing breed sizes make no difference, a chicken is a chicken is a chicken.
whether it is a bantam or a large fowl, the only difference between the breeds is the quantity required.
Yes a large bird will obviously eat more than a bantam but any chicken still gets 18% protein from a layers ration whether it eats 1oz, 1lb or 1 ton of feed.
Whatever amount is consumed the bird receives the balanced diet.
its all about percentage, the quantity is irrelevant.
There are no longer hormones, growth promoters etc added to poultry feed, that was all stopped a long time ago, feed companies of today don't put stuff in and don't tell you about it.
and as for giving birds a "Natural" diet, there is nothing unnatural in formulated poultry feed..
In fact here is the list of ingredients in my layers food.
Composition: Wheat, Dehulled Soya Bean Meal (sourced from traceable non-GM material), Limestone Flour, Extracted Sunflower Meal, Distiller's Wheat Grains, Maize, Lucerne Meal, Full Fat Linseed, Dicalcium Phosphate, Rape Oil, Salt, Mannan Oligosaccharides, Seaweed, Nettle, Marigold Flowers, Clivers, Blackcurrant, Kale, Spinach, Beetroot, Rosemary, Rosehip, Pomegranate, Carrot, Tomato
There are no E numbers, strange compounds or chemicals in there.
There are admittedly a couple of them not instantly recognisable..
Dicalcium Phosphate = Calcium
Mannan Oligosaccharides although sounding pretty horrendous is just a sugar...
Now if i said I were feeding all these ingredients individually to my chickens I suspect everyone would be singing my praises about providing such a varied and nutritious diet to my birds.
so why the negativity about feeding them mixed together as a pellet??
p.s. Castle Farm
Do you know exactly whats in your grain? do you grow your own feed? or are you using the same wheat etc as is being used by the feed mills which has been subjected to the same pesticides etc?
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I'm adding this part in at a later date as it came up in another thread and I forgot about it on this one!.
Calcium and phosphorous levels in the diet are pretty critical in laying birds, formulated feeds can control these very closely whereas they cannot be regulated by the birds themselves when free ranging and using oyster shell etc.
Over feeding calcium and phosphorus or feeding them in unbalanced amounts can do just as much harm to the bird as underfeeding and can in serious cases cause shell, bone and kidney problems.
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Izzy is looking for ingredients to add to a grain only diet so i'd have to go with previous suggestions, greens, fruit,...
Don't think fruit has much protein in it.
I'm surprised how many 'small' ingredients are in your layers Clansman. Its nice to see the list, thanks for posting the list.
"Seaweed, Nettle, Marigold Flowers, Clivers, Blackcurrant, Kale, Spinach, Beetroot, Rosemary, Rosehip, Pomegranate, Carrot, Tomato"
A friend of a friend has commercial layers. On the advise of some rep/researcher they altered the ration by a tiny % here and there, and noticibly changed the productivity of the birds! I have no doubt that these things are carefully calculated and researched. And agree that with the amount of foraging free range birds can do, it would be impossible to even adjust their diet to that degree... maybe they're already on 25% protein for all we know ;D
I read in John Seymores' book his suggested grain mix for fattening cockerals on, but then recommend that if free food was available, the smallholder would want to use that and said (I think) boiled potatoes and barley worked for him!
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maybe they're already on 25% protein for all we know ;D
They could well be and possibly even higher but then that would be more than they actually need, meaning something else is lacking.
They will given the chance balance out their own diets pretty well, they know what they need but its a very inefficient way of doing it.
However if the food they are picking up is free then thats not as much of an issue.
p.s.
It doesn't state the percentage of each ingredient though, it might well be 1 carrot per ten tonnes ;D
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Yeah, but it sounds nice.
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I think I already mentioned in some other thread that we have grown Siberian pea trees to plant for our hens to forage from, but it seems quite relevant to the topic so repeating it ;) These shrubs grow very tall and are self seeders, so not something you'd want in the wrong place, but they will produce an awesome amount of peas for our poultry once established and the birds will be able to help themselves. It might be worth considering as a protein boost for your birds too.
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All the wheat and barley is grown about 1 mile from where I live and I buy it off farm.
The Cut maize is from our local farmers co-op here in Herefordshire.
Have you ever tried a grain only diet Clansman ?
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Yep, when I first started keeping poultry I fed them on grain then moved on to formulated feeds.
Although I feed pellets i do also give them small amounts of wheat and barley etc as a scatter feed to keep them busy.
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Just to clarify - I totally agree that different situations will call for different ways of feeding, and they can all be well justified as every one keeps different birds/animals in different situations and for different reasons.
(There is an interesting thread on here about different ways of feeding/keeping sheep at the moment too.)
What gets me is the notion that one should be wary or fearful or be doing a bad/wrong thing to choose feeding their animals natural non-processed feed.
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What gets me is the notion that one should be wary or fearful or be doing a bad/wrong thing to choose feeding their animals natural non-processed feed.
I never said its bad or wrong to feed grain, it's not, many people do it and many people have great success doing so.
But it will be harder to provide them a balanced diet when doing so.
They don't need a balanced diet, they will live, breed, lay and grow quite happily on a grain diet but they will not do those things quite as well as they would on a balanced diet.
The ingredients of pellets ARE all natural foodstuffs, look at the ingredients of my pellets.
All the feed companies do is to crush them up and make it into pellets.
They are using the SAME grain you are using.
What gets me is the notion that chicken pellets are being made by mad scientists out of radioactive ingredients and toxic waste! :)
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I wonder why there is such a big market for tonics, poultry spices and all the other 'must have feed suppliments' advertized in poultry magazines if pellets are a compleate feed.
The most scary is the old dear on Beryls freindly bacteria :D
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Because people buy them ;D
Just like anti-ageing and anti-wrinkle creams, baldness cures and the good old penis enlargement aids :roflanim:
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18% protien along
I would like to think no one is feeding a layers ration to non laying and/or moulting birds.
That is poor husbandry, not a problem with the ration.
oh dear. i did feed layers pellets all year to my hens and they were poor layers - so yes, i did feed them to non-layers. they should have been laying though. what is wrong with this please? and what should i have fed them?
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Feeding a layers ration to non laying birds could cause kidney damage due to the high levels of calcium and phosphorus in the feed
It's a bit like feeding a normal person an Olympic athletes diet
It won't do any harm short term, I'm quite sure it's common practice but its not ideal for them.
If they are moulting they still need a high protein diet to replace the feathers so I usually feed them a pullet grower ration during the moult
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So you have a few hens and one or two start moulting and your feeding layer pellets, which is not ideal and could cause kidney and liver damage.
Do you remove the moulting birds and go out and buy a bag of growers pellets to feed them on or feed the whole lot a mixed grain diet that's not going to kill or cause them any problems, except perhaps you lose a few eggs which your going to anyway if they are going into a moult.
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I feed them all the growers ration and feed oyster shell separately, the laying birds will take what they need.
Feeding them a grain diet will mean their protein intake is reduced meaning it will take them longer to get through the moult, feathers are around 85% protein.
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How are you supposed to feed different diets to a small flock when a percentage of the birds are just coming into their first moult and the others aren't because they are this years hatch? Then there are the old ladies who have ceased laying much but still live with their pals. Try putting down a dish of chick crumbs for the hatchlings and telling their mum and her flock it's not for them, lol.
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I feed them all the growers ration and feed oyster shell separately, the laying birds will take what they need.
is there a withdrawal period for eggs when feeding growers to laying birds? i thought there was a growth promoter in the feed, and i put my birds meat birds (fed on growers) onto layers for a few weeks before eating them?
i think the con of feeding a blended feed such as layers pellets, is that its easier for gm feed to creep in. i know harbros sheep crunch has gm feed in it. feeding whole grains, i guess, is more likely to come from local farmer/british farmers.
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How are you supposed to feed different diets to a small flock when a percentage of the birds are just coming into their first moult and the others aren't because they are this years hatch? Then there are the old ladies who have ceased laying much but still live with their pals. Try putting down a dish of chick crumbs for the hatchlings and telling their mum and her flock it's not for them, lol.
Its obviously not possible when birds of different ages and at different stages are kept together, again i'm talking about the ideal situation where the flock are all the same age.
Most of us on here with small numbers probably don't run our birds that way.
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is there a withdrawal period for eggs when feeding growers to laying birds? i thought there was a growth promoter in the feed, and i put my birds meat birds (fed on growers) onto layers for a few weeks before eating them?
i think the con of feeding a blended feed such as layers pellets, is that its easier for gm feed to creep in. i know harbros sheep crunch has gm feed in it. feeding whole grains, i guess, is more likely to come from local farmer/british farmers.
Yes the GM thing is possible but legally they have to state if GM foods are included.
There shouldn't be growth promoters in food nowadays, I think what you mean is anti-coccidiostats?
For chicken eggs and meat its usually a 14 day withdrawal period
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I hope these posts haven't worried to many new to poultry keeping.
The rights and wrongs of how to feed your birds have been discused for many many years.
As long as they are fit and well looked after, free from lice, flees and red mite. In a clean airy dry house with fresh clean water and some fresh greens or a cut up ripe apple they should be fine.
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Agreed ;D
However rather than put it as right or wrong i'd say both ways are good, one way will just improve the performance.
Its similar to the lighting factor for laying birds.
Birds will lay just fine on natural daylength but if you give them a little artificial light they will lay for longer and therefore lay more eggs.
Neither way is better than the other as such, its just whatever you are looking for from your flock.
Will we start another thread on lighting?? ;D
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Good idea! I wonder if anyone has actually costed out the whole lighting/performance thing? Do birds have shorter lives/poorer health if they don't have an off lay period?
Do we think aesthetics are more important than productivity or should chickens pay their way?
lots to discuss there too.
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You'll get a dozen different answers to those questions :)
Cost wise the artificial lighting programs are well worth doing, that's what the commercial guys do.
I worked with battery and laying hens for many years and although they are rarely cost effective after the second year they will still lay well if kept on lighting programs for a good few years albeit producing fewer although larger eggs.
They can live for many years even after they stop laying so I don't think it shortens their life or results in poorer health.
I have pure breeds because I like the look of them but I also like to make them work.
Even battery hens won't lay all year round, they need to moult and have a recovery period between laying stints.
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There shouldn't be growth promoters in food nowadays, I think what you mean is anti-coccidiostats?
For chicken eggs and meat its usually a 14 day withdrawal period
yes, maybe it was that, iim sure you shouldnt feed growers to layers if you are eating the eggs/meat.
Good idea! I wonder if anyone has actually costed out the whole lighting/performance thing?
i have done incubator / heat lamp pricing - after 2 years of spring electric bills of £450 for 10 weeks - i have reduced my bill by 85% by not turning the blasted things on. of course i didnt make a £400 profit on any chicks i raised so its been an expensive hobby. ::) ::)
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We built a new chicken house a few years back - when I say house I mean one we could stand up in so more like a shed with nest boxes and perches really - and hubby put two decent sized glazed windows in it to up the light levels. They loved it so much that they stayed inside all winter despite the pop hole being open and they all carried on laying in the winter for the first time ever! It was that really bad winter so the snow may have increased the light levels further still :thinking:
My main discomfort with artificial lighting in poultry houses is that I think it deprives the birds of one of their natural behaviours, the chance to give their bodies a rest and regain condition after the reproductive season. It takes a lot of calcium to make the egg shells and I suspect their bones suffer without the off-lay period, not so much very young birds but after a few years they are just like us women, struggle to keep bone density with advancing age and no amount of calcium supplements can give the body the ability to absorb the stuff. Endocrine systems become less efficient and the knock-on effect leaves all sorts of bodily functions a bit clapped out. ....... None of which is really relevant if you rotate your stock but if you intend to keep them longer then worth considering.
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:roflanim: Oh my :thinking:
Well for me the chickens work, the dog works, the wife works & the kids when anyone of them doesn't earn their keep the end is nigh.
If my wife has a day off she usually just eats soup as a full blown meal would tip her over the edge from earning her keep :roflanim: I have brought the gun in doors these days as I don't think she's got long left but most of the chickens are ok so that's fine. :roflanim:
:idea: If I stick a head torch on my wife will I get a bit more graft out of her :roflanim:
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http://www.permacultureglobal.com/posts/3797 (http://www.permacultureglobal.com/posts/3797)
The joys of Essex clay is that we have nettles to burn. In fact I use them quicker than they can grow for my welsh cob and piglets and chicks.
I do find this helps as a conditioner. I add it as a porridge with oats warm in winter, with a bit of honey and they seem to like it.
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http://www.permacultureglobal.com/posts/3797 (http://www.permacultureglobal.com/posts/3797)
The joys of Essex clay is that we have nettles to burn. In fact I use them quicker than they can grow for my welsh cob and piglets and chicks.
I do find this helps as a conditioner. I add it as a porridge with oats warm in winter, with a bit of honey and they seem to like it.
Good to know, thanks. Do you wilt the nettles before feeding them to the livestock?