[HappyHippy]

on my trip to hatfield is where the size difference came into it   a bit more than 12 inches    in the small corner is Wendy's pigs and the large ones were the ones getting the accolades     it would be interesting if Harriet is as prolific as the other ones that are bigger

Was it definately her Kunekunes she had there ? Wendy also has 'little' Swedish pigs  Or they might have been younger ones ? Wendy keeps all of the different bloodlines, but I haven't had a chance to discuss with her if she notices a difference between them.
We get smaller ones and bigger ones all in the same litter - some are just shorter on the back and shorter in the leg (much more 'barrel like'  ) then there are others which are a bit longer and leaner. I tend to prefer the longer and leaner ones (especially for pork), but if someone is looking for a 'pet' pig the smaller ones are ideal.
Harriet isn't as prolific as Adelaide. I can't remember what her first litter was, Lynne will be able to tell you  but the litter she's just had was 7, 5 alive, 2 still born.

[robert waddell]

if it is Swedish pigs she entered they were in the kunnie classes
you do get differences in size of piglets    it is a multiple birth afterall 
i am still leaning towards the outcrossing  for the size and the litter increase as well     especially as one of the points of the kunnies being more expensive  was there small litter size
the outcrossing will always show up

[HappyHippy]

Well, I prefer to attribute the increase in litter size to the fact that breeders are only choosing the very best examples to take forward for future breeding. Registering gilts and boars with more than the required 10 teats and making sure the pigs are in tip top health when mated and during gestation.

Any breed can be, and is improved in this very way, you'd expect the subsequent generations to be better than the one before if breeders were making sure the offspring registered was better than what went before - if not, what is the point of pedigree breeding ? (of any species)

I suspect Kunekunes were expensive originally to help cover some of the importation costs, rather than the fact they had small litters (can't see how that would be a plus point for any breed  ) 

Since you're so convinced that there must've been some outbreeding I suggest you take it up with the BKKPS. I have paperwork saying I own registered Kunekune pigs, who IMHO all meet the Kunekune breed standards. They were sold and I bought them in good faith as being Kunekunes and I have absolutely no reason to suspect otherwise - that's good enough for me. 

[robert waddell]

so what you are saying is that Wendy does not select the best  and others do
the blurb ten years ago was empathising the small litter size
and as i have said before to get that increase in litter size in such a short time   and not across the board
 
and on your last paragraph   i have spoken to Wendy as i said face to face    but she has some good berkshires

[HappyHippy]

I am saying no such thing about Wendy or Wendy's pigs, Robert. Stop stirring 

I wasn't at the Yorkshire, I didn't see Wendy's pigs compared to the others there, the placing on the day was up to the judge on that day and has nothing to do with me or you.
I saw Wendy's pigs at the Welsh show and saw them as being no different to the others there, some of her pigs are a similar size to mine. What I said was I prefer longer and leaner for pork Wendy wouldn't be breeding for pork so will have a different idea of what she's looking for in her pigs - not better or worse, just different.

I will contact the breeder of my Kunekune sow and let him know the aspersions you're making with regard to outcrossing - will let you know what I hear back 

[robert waddell]

oh dear Karen     hatfield has the kunnie classes     yorkshire does not    and nobody criticised the judging at any show    and as far as i can see it is you that is    getting very defencive   sunday is going to be interesting

[HappyHippy]

so what you are saying is that Wendy does not select the best  and others do

THIS is stirring 

And yes, I am getting defensive because I feel you are/have been making derogitory remarks or implications about my husbandry and my pigs and to be honest I'm getting beyond sick of it 
I've told no lies, I'm not making things up or trying to mislead folk and I don't go about my business in any sort of underhanded manner - I feel you suggest that I do, all because one of my pigs has big litters  I have tried many times to explain to you and give you numbers and figures to back it up - you either don't believe me or don't want to hear it........ there's not much more than that I can do ! I dispair, really I do 

Sunday will be fine, Bruce is looking forward to seeing you 

[Beewyched]

so what you are saying is that Wendy does not select the best  and others do
the blurb ten years ago was empathising the small litter size
and as i have said before to get that increase in litter size in such a short time   and not across the board
 
and on your last paragraph   i have spoken to Wendy as i said face to face    but she has some good berkshires

Robert, I am really hoping you are not casting nasturtiums 
As with breeders of any pedigree animals, everyone will have their favourite "type", be it colour, size etc
I personally prefer my KKs to be more of the "rangey" type, rather than the very "short, fat & round" type.  There are several reasons for this - the land we have available for them to live on (2.5 acres of sloping woodland), that I am specifically aiming away from the whole "mic**" craze & more towards a "proper" small, smallholders pig.
By making this choice, I am selectively keeping-on future breeding stock that conforms to both BKKPS Breed Standards & my personal preference - stud boars with 2 piris & 6  clean pairs of teats (3 either side of the sheath) & sows with either 6 or 7 clean pairs of teats.
The result is healthy, mainly good Breed Conformation youngsters with well-affixed piris, 7 clean pairs of teats & leaning (    scuse the pun ) towards the rangey side - giving me what I want - a good "all-round" smallholding pig - docile, good natured, hardy, excellent mothers & economic to raise for the freezer    Ok, there are differences in every litter by way of size, colour etc & I am still getting some with no piris, so those that don't make the grade will never be registered for breeding from & are sold for meat or companion pigs.
As with any breed of pig - take the same pig in front of 2 different judges & we'll probably get "Best in Show" under one of them & maybe a 3rd with another - if every pig in front of them meets the Breed Standards it can just come down to the expression on a pig's face on the day 
 

[Beewyched]

Ok folks - time-out PLEASE!
It took me so long to write my last post, there's been an additional 3 made - Robert - stop    & Karen - go for a cold shower 
I feel so sorry for Mr 4H - no mind about stewarding the pigs - he'll be refereeing a boxing match on Sunday 

[robert waddell]

Lynne it is not me that is stirring     your friend is doing a very good job herself
 
so what if there is outcrossing    there are at least 2 breeds within the bpa that it is common knowledge     it is your fault any way Lynne  claiming the small gene pool      you work with what is available within your chosen breed

[Beewyched]

Lynne it is not me that is stirring     your friend is doing a very good job herself
 
so what if there is outcrossing    there are at least 2 breeds within the bpa that it is common knowledge     it is your fault any way Lynne  claiming the small gene pool      you work with what is available within your chosen breed

Ok Robert, maybe we need a "clockwork key" emoticon on here instead 
If there has been any "outcrossing" done with KKs, I would be interested in finding out who did it & more importantly why - genuinely so.  I have 3 sow lines & 2 boar lines, with full ancestory that can be traced back to the "16", but I am selectively keeping-on those that meet my personal requirements - working within my chosen breed, as you said.
Not sure how my comments about a small gene pool started WW 3 tho 

[thestephens]

gulp!! i will be hiding in the corner with my round and fat,Heidi and my longer, leaner Bunny and a very smiley 10 year old! Oh to have the confidence of a 10 year old!!

[robert waddell]

Allison there is no need to hide in any corner or anywhere
Lynne the ones that do the outcrossing are not going to mark it on the pedigree and any outcrossing can influence that breeding for up to 6 generations   just look at roman noses in people it is a long time since the Romans conquered Britain     it is when a particular trait becomes dominant     pricked ears when they should be floppy   and floppy when they should be pricked    the ears are just an example as to what can show up
now take the lop crossed with the Hampshire     no piglet to date has lop ears   just as no piglet to date has a saddle   all are predominately white   but then again we are not passing them of as something that they are not  they are for meat and very good lean meat at that
which then comes to prolific breeding                        in the commercial herd they use the maisham pig cross that with another either large white  landrace or Duroc  and end up with a pig that suits them     some even leave out the maisham connection
 
all i am saying is the kunnies were not known to produce large litters   and in the space of 10 years to get more than double the litter size   something has happened
 
Dan will be coming in locking this thread and asking for it to be moved to a thread of its own

[Beewyched]

Hi Robert 
I am still, maybe naively, believing that the differences are due to husbandary - selective breeding & feeding - I wouldn't like to be proven wrong about this, why would folks want to outcross KKs, when their small size is part of their selling points?  But I think I get what you mean 
Allison     Heidi & Bunny (& the ten year old) will be fine - look forward to seeing you 
 
 

[Rosemary]

Allison     Heidi & Bunny (& the ten year old) will be fine - look forward to seeing you 
 

Me too