[SallyintNorth]

The destiny of by far the majority of dogs is to be pets, so surely we ought to be planning our breeding on the understanding of what makes a good pet far more than we do on what makes a good show dog or working dog?

Otherwise all pets are, by definition, dogs who failed in the field or ring - not a good selection process for a family dog, in my view.

[YorkshireLass]

The destiny of by far the majority of dogs is to be pets, so surely we ought to be planning our breeding on the understanding of what makes a good pet far more than we do on what makes a good show dog or working dog?

Otherwise all pets are, by definition, dogs who failed in the field or ring - not a good selection process for a family dog, in my view.

Good point.


I tend to think that all dogs need a purpose/job, but that being a companion IS a valid purpose/job - so useful traits can be selected for. As said above - a reet nice dog!

[doganjo]

The destiny of by far the majority of dogs is to be pets, so surely we ought to be planning our breeding on the understanding of what makes a good pet far more than we do on what makes a good show dog or working dog?

Otherwise all pets are, by definition, dogs who failed in the field or ring - not a good selection process for a family dog, in my view.

There is the Good Citizen Scheme - ANY dog, ANY owner can do that and there are training classes all over the country.  The scheme teaches the owners to look after their dogs properly and responsibly. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/dogtraining/

There is now also a Companion Dog Club - http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/companiondogclub

Proof, if it were needed, that the Kennel Club is not just for Show or Field Trial owners, it is for ALL owners of dogs.  I can criticise the KC like anyone else but I feel praise is in order in these two cases, as well as for the Assured breeder Scheme.

[SallyintNorth]

I don't have the figures for how many dogs have 'forever homes' at the Dogs Trust because they are not suitable for living in a home environment, but I know it's not a small number.

I know that the Dogs Trust has as its core value that it never destroys a healthy dog.  Laudable but maybe not practical.  I do support the DT (financially as well as in word and deed), but in truth I would accept the destruction of unhomeable dogs and would prefer that they use the funds thus saved to home more of the dogs that will make nice pets for some family.

I myself rescued from one of the rescue charities (not the Dogs Trust), unwittingly, a dog that was not safe around children.  It ended in my having the dog put down before he bit a child.  (After much help and work trying to make him safe through training, exercise, occupation and environment.)  I have never made as hard a decision in my life, and the whole experience haunts me still. 

While the problem is of such a scale that logistics tell us there will be many dogs who won't get homed, no matter what we do, then there should be some triage, whereby dogs with serious problems are either shunted to charities specifically for such dogs (so we can all decide for ourselves whether we want to pay to keep such dogs alive) or are destroyed to make way for nice friendly dogs who will make nice friendly safe family pets to find their way to the front of the queue.

[Moleskins]

Doganjo, I can't make it any clearer


WHICH DOGS ARE BEING PUT DOWN
WHAT BREEDS ARE THEY
WHY ARE THEY BEING PUT DOWN


If you're suggesting that every dog deserves a home quite frankly you want to take your head out of wherever it is and take a look around. I certainly don't want my daughter to have a dog from a rescue centre that's been put there because it bites.
I've experienced dogs from rescue centres, one of them was in there because it continually poohed in the house, trouble was Grandma's failing eyesight meant its pooh got stood in so it had to go back.


I'm all for the idea of a good bitch and a good dog making a good pet.


PS thanks for the advert for the Dogs Trust.

[in the hills]

Woww ... Doganjo!


Did I say that that I didn't think that health testing was important?   I don't think so.  And yes, all the tests that were going at the time .... hips and eyes in the case of our breed.


Sorry, I didn't mean that YOU were being judgemental .... think I wrote WE. Should have made that more clear. As in  ... if we brought in more legislation.


Some people who work/ show dogs have many litters in a year and they may carry out all health tests and conform to any new legislation but does that mean all their pups go to good homes? If someone breeds just one litter of cross bred pups is that so bad? .... they may go to more loving and permanent homes than "show" or "working" dogs.

[Moleskins]

Sally,
I'm gonna have to kiss you again, your post makes perfect sense.

[Fronhaul]

I am firmly convinced that over regulation (and I am afraid I include compulsory licensing) will achieve nothing more than to cement the position of the puppy farmers, who will become totally entrenched as the main financial beneficiaries of puppy sales, and impoverish the genetic pool available to maintain our breeds. 

We need to change the public perception of what is involved in producing a litter.  That is never going to happen while the apparently vested interests continue to squabble.  Anyone who cares about the welfare of dogs should have two main aims in mind namely the production of healthy puppies and the homing of those pups in stable loving homes.  The greatest disservice ever done to the canine population in my view was perpetrated by the BBC so that views became polarised.  Yes the Kennel Club was sitting on its rather smug posterior at the relevant time but that there are people now suggesting that only hybrids are healthy and or condemning all pedigree breeders as greedy and uncaring shows how the issue has now developed in a totally skewed and distressing way.

We are never going to change human nature but we can surely make the effort to inform the uninformed and educate people more than we are at the moment. 

What I would love to see is organisations like the RSPCA and the Dogs Trust putting effort into informing people of the steps they would like to see taken before any bitch is bred from.  Lets forget whether the aim is a show winning Pointer, a working dog, a fashion cross or indeed a mongrel.  Surely the first question has to be the one that Blondie's breeder discussed with me when we were considering whether to spay or breed from her.

 Would the world really be impoverished by her not having puppies?  Can we justify the mating on the basis it is needed?  And for a dog who stood fourth at Crufts but has some issues of her own (and not health issues) the answer was we decided No.

Next question Are you confident that even in a breed that may produce ten or more puppies you can find stable loving homes for all the pups?  Do you already have a number of buyers in the pipeline?

Next question What health issues are there in your chosen breed or cross?  Are you prepared to pay for the necessary testing to be undertaken?

Next question Are you prepared to take back any puppies that for any reason are not suited to their new owners?

Final question Do you realise that dog breeding can often be a loss making exercise. especially if things don't go as smoothly as you hoped?  And as a consequence are you prepared for potentially huge veterinary bills?

I will clamber off my soapbox now but I really do believe that unless we stop trying to attribute blame and get on with educating people our dogs will be suffering for many years to come.

[SallyintNorth]

There is the Good Citizen Scheme - ANY dog, ANY owner can do that and there are training classes all over the country.  The scheme teaches the owners to look after their dogs properly and responsibly. http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/dogtraining/

There is now also a Companion Dog Club - http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/companiondogclub

Proof, if it were needed, that the Kennel Club is not just for Show or Field Trial owners, it is for ALL owners of dogs.  I can criticise the KC like anyone else but I feel praise is in order in these two cases, as well as for the Assured breeder Scheme.

See, now I've learned something!      I'd kinda heard about the Good Citizen training and the Companion Dog Club but never investigated because of my longstanding antipathy to the KC.  However, encouraged by this discussion, I have now followed those links (thanks Annie) and was pleasantly surprised at the way the KC writes about other-than-pedigree dogs. 

Good post, Fronhaul 

and thanks, moleskins, for the appreciation    I don't know what to make of this week - a  from tiz, a  from moley... maybe I ought to buy a Lottery ticket... 

[robert waddell]

are you not all dancing round the questions and the issues here
 
the one that mentioned the old Grannie with the dog crapping on the floor     well where the f*** else is it going to crap if old Grannie  does not let it out      dogs can be trained for the toilet you still have to take them out
 
not every dog has a placid nature  especially round children     pulling there ears and tails  not to mention the odd kick in passing  and hauling it about just because the little angel wants to
 
a dog can and does live a long life which one of you could have predicted the financial disaster that is hovering over Brittan 5 years ago   this in part is to blame for the volume of dogs abandoned

[Old Shep]

Can I just qualify that I blame neither pedigree or non-pedigree breeders alone for the state of dogs in the UK - its the irresponsible breeders of both!  The number of pups born in the UK far outweighs the demand.  Unwanted dogs are thrown out on the street - 325 per day are picked up in the UK by dog wardens.  These are just the dogs that are reported for being a nuisance - there will be many more not picked up.  Of those dogs some will of course be reunited with their owners, some get to rescues and rehomed, but one dog per hour of every day of every week is put to sleep just because it is unwanted.   Many of these are staffies, other bull breeds, boxers etc but there are also lots of labs, collies, terriers, cross breeds etc. If anyone is unaware of the problem - google a rescue such as Homeless Hounds in Lancashire - follow their website for a few weeks and you will get an idea of the size of the problem. http://www.homelesshounds.org.uk/index.php/pound-dogs/

The following explains further:
http://petsbureau.com/security/the-uks-stray-and-abandoned-dog-numbers-for-2011-hit-an-11-year-high-2/

Yes there will always be a criminal element to dog breeding - yobbos and puppy farmers - but does that mean we shouldn't bother with legislation?  We have never managed to stamp out sheep rustling does that mean we should just make it legal? Of course not.  Dogs need our protection - horses have passports, sheep have to have their every move and medicine recorded, yet could literally breed my bitch over and over till she died of exhaustion and no-one would arrest me.


I wish knew what the answers were - I look forward to any further suggestions and informed polite debate 

Anyone still not believing that the dog world is in crisis today in the UK - take a look down the dogs for adoption list on this site

http://www.manytearsrescue.org/   

[robert waddell]

i dont get the connection with an overabundance of dogs with sheep rustling     

[Old Shep]

sorry Robert - I get a bit ahead of myself sometimes!  Yorkshire Lass posted that legislation wouldn't stop the yobbos breeding status dogs etc - I was trying to illustrate that just because some break the law doesn't mea[size=78%]n we shouldn't have a law.[/size]

[YorkshireLass]

sorry Robert - I get a bit ahead of myself sometimes!  Yorkshire Lass posted that legislation wouldn't stop the yobbos breeding status dogs etc - I was trying to illustrate that just because some break the law doesn't mea[size=78%]n we shouldn't have a law.[/size]

But the laws are already there?
If my understanding is correct, anyone breeding more than 2 (?) litters per year should be licensed by local council - do they do any checks or is this a piece of paper?
Then, puppies are covered by consumer laws - being "fit for purpose" or words to that effect. In law, dogs are property, no?
There are animal cruelty laws.


There's no point adding more rules until these ones are enforced properly.


That'd be liking changing the speed limit on the motorway from 70mph to 60mph if everyone was doing 80mph anyway...i.e. makes sod all difference to the vast majority.

[Old Shep]

You only have to be a licensed breeder when you breed 5 or more litters per year.  How much this is policed depends on the local authority in question.  5 litters could be 50 puppies per year!


May I ask what you would do to solve the problem?  I'm not a lover of lots of legislation but I cannot think what else will work,