[YorkshireLass]

You only have to be a licensed breeder when you breed 5 or more litters per year.  How much this is policed depends on the local authority in question.  5 litters could be 50 puppies per year!


May I ask what you would do to solve the problem?  I'm not a lover of lots of legislation but I cannot think what else will work,

I don't have a magic answer sadly.
Five litters seems a lot. It would be reasonable to reduce that, to tweak existing law has to be more efficient that dragging new ones through (also new law is extremely slooooooow).
And education to remove the demand, but how you get through to people who don't want to know.... 


I can see the situation getting worse, with the upcoming "bedroom tax" meaning lots of people trying to move house(rented) etc etc.

[doganjo]

That's not strictly true.  A breeding licence is authorised on payment of a fee, and under the regulations of individual councils.  In Clackmannanshire the Animal welfare Officer checks licensed breeding establishments once a year.  The rule here is if you have 3 or more bitches of breeding age - i.e. between 8 months and 11 years, and breed 2 or more litters in any one period of 12 months, you require a licence.  I have no idea what other councils decide, and since it is not standardised this is another anomaly. 

For Moleskins - I am not the only person who knows the truth of the matter -

Posted by: Shep Today at 08:24:33 PM
Anyone still not believing that the dog world is in crisis today in the UK - take a look down the dogs for adoption list on this site

http://www.manytearsrescue.org/   

[Moleskins]

the one that mentioned the old Grannie with the dog crapping on the floor     well where the f*** else is it going to crap if old Grannie  does not let it out      dogs can be trained for the toilet you still have to take them out

Hmmmm, do you know Robert I'll bet they never thought of taking it out

[YorkshireLass]

For Moleskins - I am not the only person who knows the truth of the matter -

 


I don't think anyone has said there is not a problem?

[Old Shep]

As it happens this week there is an Efra select committee which is hearing evidence with regard to Dangerous dogs, compulsory microchipping etc..  I hope they can manage to see past the "dangerous dogs" bit and see the wider picture of puppy farming and irresponsible dog ownership in general.

[Moleskins]

For Moleskins - I am not the only person who knows the truth of the matter -

Posted by: Shep Today at 08:24:33 PM
Anyone still not believing that the dog world is in crisis today in the UK - take a look down the dogs for adoption list on this site

http://www.manytearsrescue.org/   

Am I totally missing something with you Doganjo, in the past we've agreed on a few points but now you keep having a dig a me for breeding a litter of pups. Despite me doing all the right things.


I've had a look, granted a quick one, at the link to Many Tears Rescue and every dog I clicked on was a 'retired' breeding dog, never lived in a house and had to be homed with another dog.


My point throughout is that breeding of dogs should not be just in the hands of 'breeders' and this website really only confirms what I've felt all along. Breeders are a large part of the problem, regulating breeding solely into their hands would scare the heck out of me, nothing I've seen gives me any confidence in them.

I posted the above then went back to the site - this is the next one I clicked on



22-08-12 Queenie is a 3 year old ex-breeding Westie. This dear little dog has very sore skin at the moment and will need regular baths to help this. She has an overshot jaw so we will monitor how she copes with eating her food. She is a nervous little girl, she cannot yet walk on a lead and has never lived in a house before, so she will need another kind dog to show her the way and help build her confidence.


FFS what is the breeder doing breeding from a bitch with two blindingly obvious faults !

13-08-12 Jamie is a 9 year old male Cavalier Spaniel. He has come to us from a breeder as he was no longer needed. He is nervous in his new surrounding and will try to run away from you at first but will come round with patience and gentle words. He doesn't know how to walk on the lead. He will need another dog to show him the way and give him confidence. He is looking for a home with kind and gentle owners who will shower him with love and give him time to settle.  Jamie is by donation as he is an older gentleman and has a grade 4 heart murmur.  This does not need medication at the moment but his new owners will have to monitor it with their vet.  Jamie just needs a lovely home and a soft bed where he can curl up.

And another, breeder finished with him despite breeding from a dog with a heart problem then drop him on someone who will have to pay the vets bills, can someone, anyone explain any aspect of this that's right.

[doganjo]

I agree with you - none of that is right,  But I suspect they are puppy farmers not true responsible breeders.  I really do not know ANYONE who would breed like that

This is the meaning of the word 'breeder'   - 'someone who puts two animals together to mate with the expectation that they will reproduce.' 
By that token YOU are a breeder, Robert is a breeder, many others on here are breeders. 

I said that I thought you should have taken more consideration of health issues and suitable homes for pups prior to mating your bitch.  I didn't say you shouldn't have done it at all.

"Dog breeding is the practice of mating selected dogs with the intent to maintain or produce specific qualities and characteristics. When dogs reproduce without such human intervention, their offsprings' characteristics are determined by natural selection, while "dog breeding" refers specifically to the artificial selection of dogs, in which dogs are intentionally bred by their owners. [1] A person who intentionally mates dogs to produce puppies is referred to as a dog breeder. Breeding relies on the science of genetics, so the breeder with a knowledge of canine genetics, health, and the intended use for the dogs attempts to breed suitable dogs.'

[Moleskins]

I said that I thought you should have taken more consideration of health issues and suitable homes for pups prior to mating your bitch.  I didn't say you shouldn't have done it at all

I did.


What bothers me now is, if I'm a breeder, I'm technically  in the same category as some of those *****

[littlelugs]

It's not just a breeder problem, hell i've had some cracking dogs from both breeders of pedigree and breeders of mongrels (i love my pedigrees but i love my mutts as much so always have a mix).
The problem is the minority of bad breeders i.e puppy farms etc coupled with the muppets who buy a dog,  go down the pub see their mates dog and see pound signs flashing    "lets breed our dogs call em a fancy name and flock em for £100's" they dont bother with health tests, temperament or anything else. Its just a way of making a quick buck!
It's too easy to get a dog these days and then worry about the consequences later, when the dog has behavioural problems through lack of basic training These people wont invest time and effort training it, they just send it to the rescue or take it for a drive and dump it.
Another example is  the dog gets out and gets caught because "we couldnt afford to get it neutered"
"oh well let it have a litter we'll get rid of the pups somehow."
If you cant afford to get your dog chipped, vaccinated and neutered dont get the dog in the first place simple.
My idea re: licensing would hopefully get these idiots out of the system because its too much bother to invest in it. (i know it wouldnt work anyway as i said, but it is a nice thought).
 
 
 
 

[Beewyched]

My thoughts exactly Littlelugs 
SOMETHING has got to be done, it just can't be left to continue the way it is - too many dogs are existing in poor health/welfare conditions
It's clear that everyone who has posted on this thread is both compassionate & passionate about the subject - I DO NOT WANT FOLKS TO FALL-OUT OVER THIS! 
Yes - there may be differences in attitudes towards dogs - some are the "family pets" others "breeding animals" & others "working animals" - IMHO THIS REALLY DOESN'T MATTER - it's the welfare of the dogs that is central to this & it is clear that "voluntary regulation" is not working ...
 

[Moleskins]

OK
How's this for an idea, I've known of two breeders who were quite clearly just producing puppies without proper regard to the parents welfare or the quality of the pups.


Instead of trying to stop all breeding outside of a select few, which has problems of reducing the gene pool and excluding good dogs. And rather than starting a petition to try to licence all dogs and all breeding which wouldn't be a vote winner with any political party so almost certainly wouldn't happen.


Wouldn't it be better to have a campaign to wake the likes of me up, so that when I become aware of what is basically a puppy farm,  in the hands of a fan of shows and the KC  or just a 'bloke in the pub'  - I report it to the appropriate people and get it stopped.

[littlelugs]

  completely agree moleskins, and i am sure people do. I know i would if i knew of one.
However what needs to be done is the people who are being reported to, need to act upon the information given in the first place. If people report these places and continualy see nothing being done they will give up reporting and we are back to stage one. 
 

[Beewyched]

OK -
How's this for an idea, I've known of two breeders who were quite clearly just producing puppies without proper regard to the parents welfare or the quality of the pups.


Instead of trying to stop all breeding outside of a select few, which has problems of reducing the gene pool and excluding good dogs. And rather than starting a petition to try to licence all dogs and all breeding which wouldn't be a vote winner with any political party so almost certainly wouldn't happen.


Wouldn't it be better to have a campaign to wake the likes of me up, so that when I become aware of what is basically a puppy farm,  in the hands of a fan of shows and the KC  or just a 'bloke in the pub'  - I report it to the appropriate people and get it stopped.

I'll try & do this, bit by bit (first time I've tried this so bear with me) if & just IF we had a model of Staged licences;

If' they'd tried to originaly apply for a Stage 3 licence, then they would have had to meet certain welfare conditions/health-checked parents BEFORE producing pups.  They would have had regular inspections & any puppies produced would have been traceable - hopefully it would have put them off "breeding" in the first place!

I am certainly NOT advocating that it should be for the select few - I totally agree with you that it is PARTIALLY what has caused breed-related health problems in the first place!  I also have no problems with "mongrels", but NOT "designer dogs" - just that the parents are healthy BEFORE being "bred" from.


I really wish it was that simple Moles, I really do - there's been masses of publicity over recent years - BBC aired Investigations, RSPCA drives, the KC launching the Accredited Breeder Scheme, Pedigree with-drawing from the sponsorship of Crufts etc.  I think it's only those of us that are aware of the issues in the first place, honestly, take notice.

[Beewyched]

Oh phlew - that went wrong    Sorry folks 
Now modified 

[doganjo]

It's not just a breeder problem, hell i've had some cracking dogs from both breeders of pedigree and breeders of mongrels (i love my pedigrees but i love my mutts as much so always have a mix).
The problem is the minority of bad breeders i.e puppy farms etc coupled with the muppets who buy a dog,  go down the pub see their mates dog and see pound signs flashing    "lets breed our dogs call em a fancy name and flock em for £100's" they dont bother with health tests, temperament or anything else. Its just a way of making a quick buck!
It's too easy to get a dog these days and then worry about the consequences later, when the dog has behavioural problems through lack of basic training These people wont invest time and effort training it, they just send it to the rescue or take it for a drive and dump it.
Another example is  the dog gets out and gets caught because "we couldnt afford to get it neutered"
"oh well let it have a litter we'll get rid of the pups somehow."
If you cant afford to get your dog chipped, vaccinated and neutered dont get the dog in the first place simple.
My idea re: licensing would hopefully get these idiots out of the system because its too much bother to invest in it. (i know it wouldnt work anyway as i said, but it is a nice thought).

Totally agree, LL