[robert waddell]

once all you dog breeders can agree on the way forward    your ideas could be applied to the pig breeding   which is more fornicated up than the dog breeding

[Old Shep]

But I think, in reality, you have as much chance of stopping dogs from shagging each other either by design or by accident as you have urinating successfully into a force 8.

Yes accidents may happen, but responsible owners of bitches in season do not let them wander the streets or country lanes!! Or entire dogs for that matter!!  If owners do not neuter they should take great care - and it is possible to own both entire males and females and not have accidents.

[Old Shep]

some petitions already on the go:


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/23648


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/11614


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5136


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/30636


not saying I support all these ideas but there's plenty of topics for discussion 

[SteveHants]

But I think, in reality, you have as much chance of stopping dogs from shagging each other either by design or by accident as you have urinating successfully into a force 8.

Yes accidents may happen, but responsible owners of bitches in season do not let them wander the streets or country lanes!! Or entire dogs for that matter!!  If owners do not neuter they should take great care - and it is possible to own both entire males and females and not have accidents.

I have known of several different people with bitches of differing breeds who have 'escaped' when they were on heat - a particularly interesting one was a collie x gsd x summat else bitsa I knew in my youth who broke a panelled wooden garden fence to run off and shag a predigree racing greyhound down the road.....

[YorkshireLass]

Good lord.


I'm going to try very hard to be non offensive, and please know that I've no idea about what's gone on between some of you here, and I mean no personal attacks.


Right. 




Who is going to pay the IT company for this database?
Who here trusts the Government to sort it out, with their record of large IT projects (NHS spine, anyone?)
Who here wants yet another database full of personal details and history?
Who here thinks that Mr Yobbo with his well 'ard status-breed bitch is going to give a stuff about microchips or papers?
Who here thinks that if challenged, Mr Yobbo will either claim an accidental mating and/or abandon dog and/or kill it? And if dog happens to be tattooed etc for ID....well you've seen what happens to some greyhounds (tattooed ears cut off). Microchips can be cut out if you're so inclined.
If some silly person gets hold of an unregistered dog (through accident or design) - will they dare take it to a vet for treatment?
Who decides how many litters is acceptable, or what problems rule a breeding animal out (one breeder might think "his legs are too short" but what if I WANT a short legged "version"?) - and thus reducing the gene pool.
Does the number of acceptable litters depend on the breed status (rare etc)?
What about dogs intended to be workers that just don't have "it" - cull them?




Layers and layers of paperwork serve only to p*ss people off so that normally law abiding folk think "to hell with it"

[Beewyched]

Shep - I'll have a good look at these epetitions when I'm more awake    afternoons are best for me 
Yorkshirelass - the KC already has a lot of the IT & know-how to move on this.  Part of the reason I started this thread was to gain different viewpoints from folks who are used to being "regulated to death" with their other animals/stock.  I do appreciate where you are coming from - that most law abiding folk are probably not keeping/treating their dogs in poor health/welfare conditions - whether it be due to ignorance or greed.  But there has got to be some way of dealing with these issues - for the sake of dogs, puppies & potential new owners.

[robert waddell]

some years ago    nearly 4 now   i was working in toryglen in Glasgow   a young guy (obviously the local dealer)  had a pitbull  he trained it daily in the swing park with tyres tied up and swinging it round to get a better  grip   now this was A very busy area   hamden is just across the road  the asda car park where the gangster was shot dead in his car is next to these multi storey flats
 
the laws were in place to prevent this from happening but it did and like it was just normal
so how is more legislation going to reduce the dog numbers

[littlelugs]

I personally think the only people legally allowed to breed dogs should be licensed and regulated.
To recieve the license a qualification must be gained a bit like a degree (expensive and time consuming including checks on premises) any dogs sold by said breeder should be chipped, vaccinated and spayed (unless being sold to other breeder).
There is no reason why dogs sold as pets should not be neutered- this would discourage the backyard breeders trying to make a quick buck flogging mongrels as designer dogs.
As for the kennel club regulating it- I totally disagree they cant even regulate what they currently have in place and a lot of health issues in breeds has been caused by in breeding just trying to get that perfect standard for the prize.
We had a great dane bitch from a KC recommended breeder and that poor girl had so many health issues which eventually took her life, that if i ever met that breeder again she would be damn well suffering too! (another trophy chaser who did'nt give a damn about the health of her breed)
N.B I am certanly not tarring all kc breeders with that brush a good friend of mine is the KC breed health co-ordinator for a breed and i know the tireless work she puts in to improve the health of that breed. Sadly even she has had her work ridiculed and scorned by high up members of the KC who dont like home truths.
If the owners of all dogs were held accountable for their actions there wouldnt be so many dogs in rescue. currently any idiot can buy a dog with no questions asked. Then see his mates dog that looks nice and breed a litter without any care of market demand etc. The newspapers are full of stories of cruelty and appeals by charities to keep them ticking over etc.
So make owners be responsible for their actions (you want to own a dog- then gain a license through a welfare qualification) all fees could then be used to do something positive, and it may just put the idiots off owning a dog if they have to actually work to be able to achieve the privilage .
As they wouldnt be legally allowed to breed the dogs less unwanted dogs being born everyday.
I am pretty sure my idea will be disected by the more knowledgable on here but i just dont see why if you are a geniune breeder/owner of a breed why you would have any issues doing any of the above if it would make things better breed and welfare of these animals
just to clarify we have two rescue great danes and a beagle/lab mongrel.

[robert waddell]

so why just settle for qualifications for keeping a dog    bring it on across the animal kingdom 

[in the hills]

Reluctant to get involved in this thread as I understand many of you have very strong views and opinions on this subject but I am going to hide behind Robert now      .


Have to say I agree with him here. Where do you draw the line? Of course all breeding should be responsible. Yes health checks if appropriate, yes have homes lined up, question potential owners and so on. But why just dogs then? Lots of animals are reared in dreadful conditions and neglect. And a lot of children too!!!!! How can you possibly police everything to that extent?


And would you really want it? If you look at it in the wider context     Where would we be heading ?

[doganjo]

Good lord.


I'm going to try very hard to be non offensive, and please know that I've no idea about what's gone on between some of you here, and I mean no personal attacks.

Right. 

Who is going to pay the IT company for this database?
Who here trusts the Government to sort it out, with their record of large IT projects (NHS spine, anyone?)
Who here wants yet another database full of personal details and history?
Who here thinks that Mr Yobbo with his well 'ard status-breed bitch is going to give a stuff about microchips or papers?
Who here thinks that if challenged, Mr Yobbo will either claim an accidental mating and/or abandon dog and/or kill it? And if dog happens to be tattooed etc for ID....well you've seen what happens to some greyhounds (tattooed ears cut off). Microchips can be cut out if you're so inclined.
If some silly person gets hold of an unregistered dog (through accident or design) - will they dare take it to a vet for treatment?
Who decides how many litters is acceptable, or what problems rule a breeding animal out (one breeder might think "his legs are too short" but what if I WANT a short legged "version"?) - and thus reducing the gene pool.
Does the number of acceptable litters depend on the breed status (rare etc)?
What about dogs intended to be workers that just don't have "it" - cull them?

Layers and layers of paperwork serve only to p*ss people off so that normally law abiding folk think "to hell with it"

Yup, I take that all on board - so what is the solution, YL?  The FACTs are:
1. Too many dogs being brought into the world
2. Too many being euthanased for no other reason than no-one wants them
3. Too many maulings
4. Too many dogs with inherited diseases causing untold misery for both them and their owners

There are more but that'll do for starters.

[Moleskins]

Yup, I take that all on board - so what is the solution, YL?  The FACTs are:
1. Too many dogs being brought into the world
2. Too many being euthanased for no other reason than no-one wants them
3. Too many maulings
4. Too many dogs with inherited diseases causing untold misery for both them and their owners

There are more but that'll do for starters.

1 Too many of which breed?
2. What breed, age, temperament are being PTS?
3. What breed are responsible for the mailings?
4. Which breeds and where are they being bred and who by?


As usual no substance to your input.

[in the hills]

You don't even need a licence to own a dog. Maybe that would be a more realistic starting point in getting people to realize the responsibility that goes with owning a dog.

[littlelugs]

I agree with Robert also    it should be across all species the same happens with all domestic/ service animals i only kept it to dogs for this topic.
Honest people with the welfare of the animals at heart in whatever situation i think would be prepared to do that. it would stop so much of the (i can't be bothered to get my animal spayed so i will worry about what do with its offspring if/when it arrives)
How many times do we see adverts for animals. Pigs, goats, dogs, cats, horses free to good homes because people have bred these and havent got a market for them. they just assumed they could make a few quid and failed.
If it were humans breeding other humans for profit with no thought of health/intellect issues there would be public outcry! (what would we do with all the chavs,,,they'd never sell! ) so why should this happen to animals.!
we used to have dog licenses years ago and they were scrapped...Why? Because they were'nt worth the paper they were written on. you went to the post office paid your tiny fee and were issued the license.
They were'nt regulated and they had no relivence to the welfare of the dog. so i am not sure a license that you buy at the post office is the way to go i think it would need to go further, which is why i think qualifications would be the way to gain the license.
Once you could prove that you knew enough about the animal, the welfare, illnesses, basic training of said animal (if domestic) etc. before you could obtain a license.
purchasing of said animal without the license could be prohibited.
again these are just all ideas, that in a perfect world may work, however sadly we are'nt living in that perfect world so things probably wont change. 

[robert waddell]

in the hills if step to the side that leaves you in the firring line
 
maybe the fancy breeds buyers will wait till there are pups on the ground    but run of the mill dogs either pedigree or not  will not wait they want them when THEY want them
 
licenced breeders would only jack the price up more than they charge just now