[SallyintNorth]

Well, so what are the existing rules about puppy farms and multiple home breedings?  As a member of the public who likes dogs but isn't into breeding or showing, I wouldn't know if someone was operating illegally - unless there were clear and evident welfare problems - and so wouldn't be reporting anyone.

So I do think there is mileage in moleskins' awareness campaign idea.  But it needs to be aimed at me and people like me who do not breed and do not show, and not couched in language that only those who do breed and do show can comprehend.

It also needs clear and simple guidance to all the welfare charities, community police and dog wardens, expresed in their language, so that they are able to decide what they shoiuld do if something is reported to them.  I'm guessing that at the moment, they'd be faced with having to do a bit of legwork to get to grips with what may constitute an offence and what they could and should do about it.  Hence (one of the reasons, anyway) that any such reports are often filed and not acted upon.

[Moleskins]

My problem with all this licensing is it may do more harm than good.
For example, chap on a shoot has a brilliant dog, somebody says ' are you going to breed from it'?
Chap on the shoot thinks 'aye that's a good idea' until he finds out all this rigamarole he has to go to and then he doesn't bother.
Result, good breeding line lost.


Example 2 Chap in the pub finds out how he can earn a bob or two, there's a bit of paperwork to be done but he figures if he knocks out an extra litter or two it'll be worth it.
Result, we've got a worse situation than now.


Sally and I posting together there.

[Old Shep]

Moleskins - you are right to be appalled at the dogs up for adoption on Many tears - many are ex-puppy farm dogs, kept in small cages having litter after litter, many not fit to be bred from and passing their inherited defects to the next generation.  This rescue must know where the dogs come from why are the police not involved to shut them down?  They are clearly not inspected by the local authority to ensure their welfare as is supposed to happen.  It gets me so cross 


The general public have to be aware of puppy farms and try to avoid buying puppies from these places.  However the puppy farmers are very clever at disguising themselves as "pet breeders"


This is the Dogs trust advice


http://www.dogstrust.org.uk/az/p/puppyfarming/default.aspx#.UFrxyLJlTmA

[Old Shep]

My problem with all this licensing is it may do more harm than good.
For example, chap on a shoot has a brilliant dog, somebody says ' are you going to breed from it'?
Chap on the shoot thinks 'aye that's a good idea' until he finds out all this rigamarole he has to go to and then he doesn't bother.
Result, good breeding line lost.

I understand your point, but not all is lost.  His dog was maybe out of a litter of 8 - siblings may already have been bred from - maybe already 20 dogs out there from same line!  If he did breed there is no guarantee that offspring will be as good as that dog, or that good working homes will be found so maybe talent will be wasted anyway.  If said chap really likes his dog and wants another for himself to take over in years to come - I think he'd do the paperwork  .

[Moleskins]

I like your point about the Many Tears organisation must know where these dogs are from and why aren't they doing anything. Good question.
On your other post you raise the question of others from the same litter being bred from so the line is already preserved. Not so sure about this because surely the object would be to breed from the best of that litter as regards, health, temperament, ability etc.
I've met one of my bitches siblings and he was useless, and I can already see differences in character of the pups in the litter I have.

[robert waddell]

your last post moleskins is getting nearer the hub of the problem    but not quite
 
temperament at 8 weeks old is hard to define   put two dogs from the same litter in two separate homes and you could have a placid well manered one and the other a nut job because of how it is treated
i would be the first to admit that i do breed dogs    but the same selection and skills are applied to my dogs as with the pigs and the sheep  plus they are reared in the home environment
 
those dogs highlighted should never have been bred from  the owners never allowed any animal again  and the dogs are of no use to anybody  a drain on there new owners and everybody concerned
 
if everybody were to be like me you would not be having this discussion
which may be a good thing or not   depends on which side of the fence you are on

[doganjo]

I like your point about the Many Tears organisation must know where these dogs are from and why aren't they doing anything. Good question.
On your other post you raise the question of others from the same litter being bred from so the line is already preserved. Not so sure about this because surely the object would be to breed from the best of that litter as regards, health, temperament, ability etc.  At last we agree!
I've met one of my bitches siblings and he was useless, and I can already see differences in character of the pups in the litter I have.

Spot on, Moleskins    It's the aim of every responsible breeder - 'to breed better than what you have now', and the best method to do that is called line-breeding.  Breed your health tested bitch to the best health tested dog you can find that has common ancestors with your bitch.  You have to be aware of the bad points as well as the good ones obviously, and you will find good and bad in every litter.  They can't all be champions!  But the better you get at honing your knowledge of pedigrees, and matching them, the closer you get to perfection.

[SallyintNorth]

It's the aim of every responsible breeder - 'to breed better than what you have now', and the best method to do that is called line-breeding.  Breed your health tested bitch to the best health tested dog you can find that has common ancestors with your bitch.  You have to be aware of the bad points as well as the good ones obviously, and you will find good and bad in every litter.  They can't all be champions!  But the better you get at honing your knowledge of pedigrees, and matching them, the closer you get to perfection.

Well, I have an emotional and very negative reaction to that, Annie.  So, rather than explore that here in this thread, which is about legislation, I'll start another thread to gain some understanding of approaches to breeding and the strengths and pitfalls of each.

Here 'tis

[jaykay]

If anyone ever knows of a puppy farm, report it to both the local council and the police. Round here I know they have worked together, prosecuted and closed such awful places down.

[SallyintNorth]

Well, I have an emotional and very negative reaction to that, Annie. 

Lor', I've been told this sounded aggressive.  Wasn't meant to, was meant to indicate that I am uninformed on this subject so my reaction to it is emotional, not logical.  And that reaction is negative, so I am wanting enlightenment.

So, so, sorry Annie if I phrased this clumsily and upset you.  Wouldn't want to do that for the world. 



I am definitely never ever going to try to tell anyone else how to phrase anything unambiguously ever again! 

[Beewyched]

...

I am definitely never ever going to try to tell anyone else how to phrase anything unambiguously ever again! 

[Moleskins]

I learned something from this thread, I didn't know that so many ex breeding dogs were got rid of, and I probably still don't fully appreciate the extent of the puppy farming problem.


As I just got out of the shower it occurred to me, if the 'Jims' of this world continue to have the odd litter they are playing a part in reducing the sales of farmed puppies and that must surely be a good thing.

[Beewyched]

I learned something from this thread, I didn't know that so many ex breeding dogs were got rid of, and I probably still don't fully appreciate the extent of the puppy farming problem.


As I just got out of the shower it occurred to me, if the 'Jims' of this world continue to have the odd litter they are playing a part in reducing the sales of farmed puppies and that must surely be a good thing.

Sadly, so many of them are Moles - once they're too old to have puppies, the "puppy farmers" just want rid of them.
I've known of a fair few who were just shot, because they were in such a state the owner didn't want to rehome them - didn't want folks to realise the conditions they were kept in.  I spoke to the RSPCA about one "puppy farmer" at the time & they just didn't seem to care  (these "breeders" had over 40 bitches of the same breed, plus 2 "stud dogs").  OK, this was over 20 years ago, but I don't get the feeling that much has changed since them 

[Fronhaul]

I have mixed feelings about Many Tears.  On the one hand they do some fantastic work.  On the other they reject any potential owners regardless of their knowledge and commitment if they have entire dogs either male or female.  So they exclude genuine and committed breeders who want to help and have the knowledge and skill to do so.  There was a very considerable argument on the Pointer Forum a couple of years ago on the subject.  And they sometimes with their no destruction policy seem to have a lack of realism. 

Puppy farms aren't illegal if they are properly licensed.  There is one near us that advertises extensively and while they stay within the regulations there is nothing that can be done except to spread the message that people should never buy from a puppy farm however sorry they feel for the puppies concerned.  And that is where I am critical of the RSPCA, Dogs Trust and the like.  They have the resources to spread the message about how to buy a dog.  They have clear and proper guidance to those who can be bothered to look for it but I would like to see that message on radio and tv broadcast to those who aren't going to look on their websites or the KC website.