[Beewyched]

I have no view to offer - we have collies that carry their tails low, so it's not an issue.

But I WOULD like to thank all the contributers to what could have been a contentious and emotive thread for behaving well. You are a wonderful example of how a forum should be conducted.

Thank you 

[Moleskins]

i think i was told once that lurchers had had their tails bred to 'flag' where they were in the brush, often with a white tip. i cant get my head around docking either. it seems some dogs have  tails left on to be a help when hunting but others have them docked, also to be a help when hunting?

It depends on the job the dog is expected to do, some hunt on open moors, some retrieve, some flush game, some drive game, some chase game and catch it. For some tasks a tail might be an asset, for some it's neither here nor there but in other instances it can be a liability.

[Tiva Diva]

My old (working) lab injured the tip of his tail, and eventually, after several (expensive) operations, had to have his tail docked really short (about 4 inches). At that, we nearly lost him to wound infections despite the best modern veterinary care. Now, I know labs aren't prophylactically docked: as has been stated in other posts on this topic, they do different jobs to spaniels on a shoot. But I know a few people who have had their spaniels docked as adult dogs (because of injury) and have also had problems with wound healing and infections. One has had to have the tail taken off right at the base. Pups have a better blood supply to the tail, and don't wag as much - I've not heard of a pup which had severe infection as a result of professionally performed docking (though I'm sure it's happened somewhere to someone). FWIW, if I was buying a spaniel to work on a shoot, especially one with a lot of brambles, I'd buy a docked one. Unfortunately that means I can't buy one from the (Scottish) breeder that I'd like to get one from.

[doganjo]

Unfortunately that means I can't buy one from the (Scottish) breeder that I'd like to get one from.

Perhaps the time has now come for natural dock breeds to be crossed with others to introduce the gene.  All it takes is seven generations for them to be registered as pure - and the KC might even consider a project just as they did with Dr Bruce Catttanach - http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html

[Beewyched]

Really interesting stuff there Annie     I can totally see where you are coming from - so many breeds of dogs could be healthier, I can't understand why, with all the science behind this, is it that the KC don't promote it   
I had to pts my dalmation at 6 years old due to mydiocard... something - she was liver spot, from Accredited Breeders, BAER tested etc - it was awful watching her go downhill    it broke my heart to let her go, but I knew it was her time - I owed it to her not to let her suffer (& tbh it's something I've still not got over 18 months down the line).
I just don't know why the KC knows about so many breed-related conditions & seems to be failing to do what I believed they were established for 

[doganjo]

To be fair the KC has no teeth.  It does what it can - set up the Assured breeder Scheme, but doesn't have the resources to police it.  Although I DO think they could bring a number of responsible people on-board to do entry checks - there are innumerable Championship Show Judges and Field Trial Judges - they could do spot checks. 

The KC also set up health testing schemes, but they are voluntary. We need legislation to enforce breeders to test ALL breeding stock prior to mating. 

Any Tom Dick or Harry can mate his bitch to a  friend's dog without doing ANY health tests and sell them to people who have not been educated to know there are inherited diseases that should be avoided.

Myocarditis is just one of many, I'm sorry you had to go through that.  I had a litter where two of the pups had heart problems - nothing in either parent to indicate any problems till we asked in France and found it in the third generation.  We kept the worst affected and let her do what she wanted till the time came for her; operated on the other which showed symptoms, and gave her to friends, she then recovered fully; and gave a partial refund to the other buyers and endorsed the pedigrees so they couldn't register pups from them.  But that wouldn't have stopped them breeding from them and possibly passing the condition on.  That is why we need legislation! 

[Beewyched]

I so agree with what you're saying here Annie - legislation needed 
If all dog owners had to micro-chip & register their animals then ... let me think    this has got to make sense ... but where to begin ...
If Jane wants a puppy of X breed, then she goes to John who is a registered breeder. 
In order to be a registered breeder of Xs he has to have registered with the AB Scheme (therefore known to K Club as a breeder) & be a member of a KC approved X Club (of Scotland/Cheshire etc).
Before breeding his Xs, John must be inspected by KC rep in X Club ( KC fees for the AB Scheme for each breed pay for each breed club to have inspectors) and all John's Xs are health-tested for all breed issues, micro-chipped etc.  KC issues a Stage 3 Licence
So ...
John has his breeding stock tested, permanently identifiable & registered with KC.  He is a member of the local X breed club, who inspect him on an annual basis that his dogs are healthy & kept over a set of minimum welfare requirements.
Jane calls John - wanting to buy a puppy from him.
Which ever region Jane lives in, she then contacts the X Club Inspector for her area who visits her at home, explains scheme & that she understands requirements of dog-keeping & anything specific to Xs requirements - Jane pays a fee (to help fund Inspector for the X club) & gets a Stage 1 licence.
Jane takes her Stage 1 licence to John, choses her puppy & pays deposit, John gets puppy micro-chipped.
Before Jane collects her puppy, she buys a Stage 2 licence from her local authority, who will use the fee towards their Animal Health/Dog Warden Officer - this will need to renewed annually.  John will have to see this before Jane can take puppy home.
I know all this only covers pedigree dogs, but if every dog owner has to have a Stage 2 licence linked to the dog's micro-chip then every dog & owner will be licensed.
Am I being too simplistic with this 
 
 

[SallyintNorth]

Hi you two    - this sounds like a topic deserving its own thread with a more relevant subject line?

[Moleskins]

Yes please, new thread.
I'm dying to reply to Beewyched.

[SteveHants]

I can sort of see the point of taking spaniel tails, but also agree that labradors have the most enthusiatic tail of any breed I have owned, perhaps docking to stiop things flying off the coffee table might be considered !

My argument would be for terriers. I have always had Jack Russels with a tail. Can't see the point in taking it off unless someone thinks it looks neater. But the same principal would have been used for hogging and docking cobs. At least the mane grows back. I would hate Poppy to not have the chance to express herself fully by wagging her tail.

Traditionally the reasons for threequater docking a terrier are: Terriers get very much 'involved' in the undergrowth, so there is less tail to get caught (same as spaniels, I guess) and the other is when they go to ground, sometimes all you can get hold of is its tail, and docking means you dont grab the end. Some also say that if it ends up the wrong way round there is less for a fox to grab, but that seems like an odd reason.


I have used the 'handle' on my terrier loads when he was a pup and used to vanish into rabbit warrens. Stops him from going even deeper, although I must have looked a right spanner, buried up to my shoulder in rabbit warren and trying to yell at a dog.


Not really saying I agree or disagree, just giving the reasons as they have been explained to me.


I suppose it does seem illogical and slightly anthropomorphic that you can happily tail one species of mammal with impunity, off your own back for up to 5 days post-birth (sheep) and not another (dog). I would have thought the central nervous system in both is similarly well developed.

[Beewyched]

Well said Steve