The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Moleskins on September 09, 2012, 01:19:45 pm
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I had all of my ESS pups dew claws taken off yesterday and 4 of the 5 had their tails docked. It was done at a vets. Not my own because they weren't keen on doing it ( though he did have a change of heart when I said I was going to another vet ).
I had to prove I worked my dogs and I had to hold the pups while they were done.
I'm just wondering what the consensus of opinion is on this topic. The vet that did them was all for it, he's had dogs with injured tails and they can be very difficult to get healed up due to the lack of flesh available to cover the wound.
The owner of the stud dog said he wouldn't sell a pup unless it was docked because he'd experienced the damage at a later age issue.
In years gone by they obviously started to do it for a reason. Was that reason the fact that if the dog injured itself it was hard to sort out the problem. Whereas if you do it as a pup it takes away both the risk of injury and the problem of healing if there is an injury.
There was little or no blood yesterday, the pups did wriggle and squeal but they did that this morning when I weighed them. Would I do it again, yes. Why didn't the 5th one have his tail docked? The lady who's having him specifically didn't want him done.
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The tail-docking issue all got very emotional in the 70s and 80s, when some breeds, many of them by then non-workers or which, if they did work, did not work in environments where they were at risk of tail damage, were having their tails docked very very short. Vets were unhappy at 'mutilation for fashion' - we'd outlawed ear-trimming in this country decades earlier. Also, where the tail was docked very short, it was a medical issue; the muscles around the anus didn't develop sufficiently and caused such dogs subsequent problems, including anal gland blockages, etc. I think there could even be nerve damage, and certainly considerable pain, when the tails were docked so very short, too.
At the time, the KC appeared to be dragging its feet. Apparently the issue was that there were no words in the breed standards of docked breeds for what tails should look like!
Since then, the KC have updated the relevant breed standards and now, in theory at least, a tailed dog should not be penalised for carrying a tail in the show ring. Indeed, I think it is now an offence to dock the tail of an animal where there is no medical reason, so dogs which are purely for show should now be tailed. And all breeds (I think - someone will tell us if there are exceptions) are now docked with sufficient tail length that the anal musculature develops properly.
The grey area is dogs which either don't work (companion dogs) but which do run about in the country, and because of their breed are likely to run through undergrowth, and dogs where the docking cannot really be justified on the basis of potential damage - smooth coated hunting dogs, and dogs which don't hunt, for instance.
Personally I think I would dock a dog with a highly feathered tail where it is likely to spend quite a bit of time running about in gorse, brambles, etc. But frankly I'd prefer the breeders to be breeding out the feathering which is causing the problem, and working towards not needing to dock.
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Interesting and informative reply but ......... about breeding out the feathering.
The vet yesterday was searching for the word to describe an ESS tail and I prompted him with 'enthusiastic'
'Exactly' he said. Isn't that part of the problem, they wag the tail so hard that it whacks something and does the damage.
Also I'd be a bit loathe, in view of some of the problems with breeding in / out certain features to try to get a tail with no feathering.
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The vet yesterday was searching for the word to describe an ESS tail and I prompted him with 'enthusiastic'
'Exactly' he said. Isn't that part of the problem, they wag the tail so hard that it whacks something and does the damage.
I don't think anyone would deny that a Labrador's tail is enthusiastic!
about breeding out the feathering. Also I'd be a bit loathe, in view of some of the problems with breeding in / out certain features to try to get a tail with no feathering.
Yes, it's something that would have to be undertaken with a great deal of care. One would hope that the breeders would make their mating choices firstly on the basis of health, vigour and correctness to type, and then, given a choice of several mates, select the one with the least feathering. But we could do with some experienced breeders (of which I am not one) to talk us through how this could work and what would be the practicalities and dangers.
Of course, there is an alternative, which is to closely trim the tails of such dogs - using sheep or horse trimmers, for instance.
What do those of you with working / hunting dogs think about that?
If you have a feathered breed which is currently docked, would shaving the tail solve the damage problem?
If you have a non-feathered breed which is not docked and which runs through undergrowth, do you find your dog's tail getting damaged by so doing?
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Truthfully I think it's fashion/what we're used to, more than anything.
Labradors have some of the most enthusiastic tails I've ever seen and they're never docked, ditto foxhounds. Neither are setters and retrievers, both very feathered. Border collies are effectively feathered, can work in rough vegetation on fells and no-one ever docks them.
As for dew claws, certainly I've seen torn ones and that must be sore, but all my existing dogs have them and though they all dig, they don't seem to tear them.
Sam, our ESS, was a working dog, had his dew claws but a docked tail (we got him as a 8 month old pup). I really don't know that he would have been disadvantaged by a full tail, but he would have looked unusual. I did a double take the other day at a Rottweiler with a tail - handsome dog, it looked good.
That said I docked the tails on all my hill sheep - argued that it was for flystrike, but Herdies and Swaledales live in the same conditions and have full tails - I think therefore it was perhaps fashion....?
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Truthfully I think it's fashion/what we're used to, more than anything.
Labradors have some of the most enthusiastic tails I've ever seen and they're never docked, ditto foxhounds. Neither are setters and retrievers, both very feathered. Border collies are effectively feathered, can work in rough vegetation on fells and no-one ever docks them.
That said I docked the tails on all my hill sheep - argued that it was for flystrike, but Herdies and Swaledales live in the same conditions and have full tails - I think therefore it was perhaps fashion....?
Labs and Springers do very different jobs on a shoot though, one normally sits at a peg and retrieves the other runs through all the cover.
The phrase 'sticks like sh1t to a blanket' fails to mention that the blanket isn't make from the wool of a Herdwick or Swaledale. I've got Ryelands and their wool would be ideal for making said blanket. Hence traditionally some breeds are docked, another isn't.
Slightly different point but along the same lines, years ago walkers used thumbsticks, we've had to throw them away and re invent the walking pole. Did the 'old guys' know something we've had to re learn. Is this the same with docking ? They must have started it for a reason.
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That said I docked the tails on all my hill sheep - argued that it was for flystrike, but Herdies and Swaledales live in the same conditions and have full tails - I think therefore it was perhaps fashion....?
I was told that the Swaley ewe needs her long tail to protect the udder from cold in the winter on the hill. And certainly, Swales at 300m+ get 'crutched' - rather than having the whole tail clipped clean - before tupping, so that the lower part of the tail retains its woolly warmer for the udder. Lower down, the whole tail is clipped, so you could argue that those sheep could have been docked as lambs.
And no-one ever satisfactorily explained why I shouldn't dock my Swaley wether lambs.
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You'll probably know that in Scotland we aren't allowed to dock at all - one of the reasons I bought a natural bobtail dog 6 years ago, I also have a natural bobtail bitch, who I acquired about the same time.
I was asked a couple of years ago to use him on a springer bitch - for £1500. But I refused - you know my opinion on cross breeds.
Not sure I would refuse nowadays as it would certainly help working springers up here - I hear of so many tail injuries - and not just in working dogs. My pal's rescue springer had to be docked at 3 years of age because she banged her tail incessantly against the furniture and was always bleeding.
I find it strange that the Government bans docking puppies at 2 days of age, but allows their dew claws to be removed, and also allows lambs tails to be chopped. It all smacks of lack of knowledge and aforethought
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I've never worked a springer so can't really comment but I would have thought its the bashing it on branches and briars that causes injury not the fact that it is feathered? Wiemies, Viszlas, GSP's etc are docked for the same reason and they are not feathered? So I think people should have the choice of whether to dock their working dogs, but I totally disagree with docking for "fashion", showing or tradition. However most people wouldn't object to males being castrated - and thats removing parts which are probably more special to the dog than the end of his tail :roflanim: :roflanim:
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I'm totally with Annie :thumbsup:
I think our setters would look ridiculous without tails, they wag like mad too, but then the breed was bred for a purpose & the feathering protects the tail (even if they're a nightmare to de-tangle ::) ).
My wiemaraner is from south of the Boarder & was bred by a dual-purpose breeder & he (the dog ;) ) is legally docked & de-due-clawed. It doesn't seem to bother him at all that he's got what my OH calls a "stumpy rump" & IMHO I think it's better for him.
A lot of dogs with "whippy" tails end up splitting them (my dalmation did - bless her - several times), which is extremely painful for the dog & expensive vet bills for the owner & it often results in the dogs needing to have it amputated in the end.
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All I can say on this one is each to there own and I dont agree or disagree that people should/shouldnt dock but I personaly would never dock, even when we showed a traditionaly docked breed and docking was still legal for all breeds we never docked and still managed to get placed at crufts
As for the tail injury on working dogs My old vet would not dock even before the law came in and told everyone that had working dogs if they got tail injurys he will treat them free of charge. that was in the early 1990s and right up untill he retired in 2009 he did not once have a tail injury come in ::)
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All I can say on this one is each to there own and I dont agree or disagree that people should/shouldnt dock but I personaly would never dock, even when we showed a traditionaly docked breed and docking was still legal for all breeds we never docked and still managed to get placed at crufts
As for the tail injury on working dogs My old vet would not dock even before the law came in and told everyone that had working dogs if they got tail injurys he will treat them free of charge. that was in the early 1990s and right up untill he retired in 2009 he did not once have a tail injury come in ::)
I don't like docking to be honest, and our breed doesn't have it's dew claws removed, so in fact the Scottish Government did me a favour. That wasn't the point I was making. It was the inconsistency that I was highlighting. It is just plain incongruous. Lambs can be docked although they are sentient and on their feet from birth, but dogs can't be unless their breeder works his/her dogs. And it would seem that puppies whose owners work their dogs, or who can wangle a letter to say they do, don't feel the same pain as puppies whose owners don't work their dogs, or who live in Scotland.
It is a similar ill thought out law to the Dangerous Dogs one
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My old springer had a tail. When I first bought her, I thought she would be ok. How wrong was I?! She had no end of problems and most of the time, just when we were walking. She was forever cutting it and making it bleed. I remember bringing her home from a popular dog walking spot covered in blood because she had cut it, wagged it and it had hit her on each shoulder. I got a few looks about that, I can tell you. I vowed never to have another spaniel with a tail, and I haven't.
HPR's: a friend who breeds gwp's is in Scotland and she had to leave tails on and we didn't think it would be a problem because they just don't enter cover like spaniels. Again, we were wrong and I've heard a few horror stories about them damaging their tails.
Setters don't need docking as they are worked on the moor, generally, and don't damage their tail, although my oldest bitch does when she wags it against the kennel!
Very much pro docking here.
Helen
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When I said I didn't like docking I meant me personally having my own pups done - I hated it, so I am glad I don't have to do it - and that is why I bought natural bobtails, so I never have to do it again.. I do however think that it is the right thing for a spaniel due to the way it's tail performs, whether the actual animal is worked or not.
My breed, Brittany - Epagneul Breton is it's French name - emanated from a French naturally short tailed hunting Spaniel - Le Fougeres - the high spirited one! So we have bobtails in the lines
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A few of these posts really highlight my point - some of you have had problems and some haven't. So was the thinking years ago, when docking started, that it was better to do all dogs on the assumption that if you didn't a proportion would damage their tails.
Let's not forget, in those days there wasn't the animal medicine we have today, so a damaged tail could cost you a valuable ( in terms of hunting ) dog, making it far more preferable to dock rather than risk losing later.
'Aha' you say 'but today we have vets and medicine'. We do, but as said previously lack of flesh on the tail makes surgery difficult and healing hard. That IMHO is the justification for docking today, nothing to do with fashion just practicalities.
PS to all this is that my vet happily cuts the nuts off all the boys and rips half the innards out of the girls.
Something the Scottish Parliament are happy to see happen. I didn't know your docking law was different up there. Thanks Doganjo for pointing out.
When looking to buy Skip one breeders website near enough said 'if you need to ask price don't ring, if you intend to spay or castrate don't ring unless you'd do the same to your son or daughter'. Ouch!
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RIght I'm gonna go straight in with the statement .......
I don't like docking.
I have worked on an off in kennels since I was 13.
I have seen more hounds (especially greyhounds) than any other type of dog with tail injuries but they don't get docked. Spaniels have really long ears and last I checked tend to go head first into brash?
I honestly don't get it?
I was always taught that docking was brought about to denote a commoners dog from the gentry's status symbol dogs hence the reason for docking terriers and spaniels but not hounds etc.
But having drunkenly poked a hornets nest (I may have had a few crabbies ginger beers before typing this ;D )
I will say that so long as it is done properly then it shouldn't make much difference to the dog.
Would I dock? nope, but then I have collies so don't have to think about it.
Would I dock my sheep? nope but then I have primitives with short tails so don't have to think about it.
Should I shut up now and go to bed? quite possibly :eyelashes: :roflanim:
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I was always taught that docking was brought about to denote a commoners dog from the gentry's status symbol dogs hence the reason for docking terriers and spaniels but not hounds etc.
OK, so what do you make of the Brittany - deliberately bred for short tails by the English Gentry going to France on shooting holidays? ;D
Otherwise I more or less agree with you, even without the Crabbies :innocent:.
At 2 days a pup hardly knows what is going on and will squeal because it has been taken from it's Mum rather than beacuse it's tail has been cut off, but that doesn't really apply to a sheep - and I believe they are docked later than up to 5 days? ???
www.aberdon.org.uk (http://www.aberdon.org.uk)
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My father used to work Flat coated retrievers ...... they have constantly wagging tails. One of his dogs that never had problems with tail damage when working, developed awful problems when he retired and came to live with us as a house dog. He wagged so vigorously that the end was always splitting as it hit furniture. Blood everywhere .... you would have thought there had been a massacre. ::) We had to secure a piece of hose pipe over the end of his tail on many occasions to protect it so that it could heal. What a sight ;D
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At 2 days a pup hardly knows what is going on and will squeal because it has been taken from it's Mum rather than beacuse it's tail has been cut off, but that doesn't really apply to a sheep - and I believe they are docked later than up to 5 days? ???
Legally it's up to 7 days for a lamb, Annie. Most sheepkeepers ring tails within the first 48-72 hours, and, done right, they mostly don't seem to feel it, or may wriggle their tails for a few seconds. Every now and again you do get one seems to feel it more but it does wear off quickly.
I haven't witnessed a pup getting docked, so I can't compare.
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I haven't witnessed a pup getting docked, so I can't compare.
I hesitated at starting this thread because it could be contentious, however I'm glad I did because there've been some good replies.
I've done my lambs and I held the pups when they were done. I can only say there wasn't any noticeable difference to me, they both get upset more because they've been taken from their Mum.
I would never advocate docking dogs ourselves, I consider the vet I went to to have been excellent. I also think he was right to get me to hold them, on two counts really, firstly so that I could see they weren't hurt and secondly because if I'm asking for it to be done I should have to be part of it.
Nothing I've seen and nothing I've read has made me have second thoughts, I'm pleased to say. :relief:
I've had Cockers in the past with anal gland probs. never thought it might be down to tail being too short.
If a list of things that were cruel to animals were made this would, IMHO be more towards the bottom ( NO pun intended )
If a list of things that were beneficial to animals were made it probably wouldn't be at the top but it could well be up there.
[size=78%] [/size]
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I hesitated at starting this thread because it could be contentious, however I'm glad I did because there've been some good replies.
I was very glad you started the thread, moley. :thumbsup: You'd mentioned docking in another thread and it was a great decision to open a separate thread for any discussion that may arise on this potentially emotive topic.
I for one feel far more informed about this issue than I did before and I am very grateful for all those who shared their knowledge, views and experiences - all of us, I thought, without tipping over into preaching or proselytising. Well done all of us! :hug:
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OK, so what do you make of the Brittany - deliberately bred for short tails by the English Gentry going to France on shooting holidays? ;D
Errr...... ;D
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I have no view to offer - we have collies that carry their tails low, so it's not an issue.
But I WOULD like to thank all the contributers to what could have been a contentious and emotive thread for behaving well. You are a wonderful example of how a forum should be conducted.
Thank you :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet:
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:-[
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:innocent: See I TOLD you I'd be a good girl if I came back on! :-J For a while anyway :excited: :excited: :excited: :excited:
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I knew there was something else I wanted to say - most vets cut the pups tails. Mine always banded them, same as sheep. Never any problems.
I reckon the folkies that wanted docking banned thought they were chopped off with a carving knife ;)
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I can sort of see the point of taking spaniel tails, but also agree that labradors have the most enthusiatic tail of any breed I have owned, perhaps docking to stiop things flying off the coffee table might be considered :innocent:!
My argument would be for terriers. I have always had Jack Russels with a tail. Can't see the point in taking it off unless someone thinks it looks neater. But the same principal would have been used for hogging and docking cobs. At least the mane grows back. I would hate Poppy to not have the chance to express herself fully by wagging her tail.
And dew claws. I saw a video recently showing gundogs using their dew claws to scramble out of icy water onto the ice. The ones without dewclaws could not retrieve the bird that had fallen on the ice across some water. So think about that one. I was amazed.
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Mine also use their dewclaws to climb fences! ::)
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i think i was told once that lurchers had had their tails bred to 'flag' where they were in the brush, often with a white tip. i cant get my head around docking either. it seems some dogs have tails left on to be a help when hunting but others have them docked, also to be a help when hunting?
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When terriers used to go to ground, i would have thought they could have damaged them underground whilst wagging and baying at the fox :innocent:
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I have no view to offer - we have collies that carry their tails low, so it's not an issue.
But I WOULD like to thank all the contributers to what could have been a contentious and emotive thread for behaving well. You are a wonderful example of how a forum should be conducted.
Thank you :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet: :bouquet:
:bow: :-*
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i think i was told once that lurchers had had their tails bred to 'flag' where they were in the brush, often with a white tip. i cant get my head around docking either. it seems some dogs have tails left on to be a help when hunting but others have them docked, also to be a help when hunting?
It depends on the job the dog is expected to do, some hunt on open moors, some retrieve, some flush game, some drive game, some chase game and catch it. For some tasks a tail might be an asset, for some it's neither here nor there but in other instances it can be a liability.
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My old (working) lab injured the tip of his tail, and eventually, after several (expensive) operations, had to have his tail docked really short (about 4 inches). At that, we nearly lost him to wound infections despite the best modern veterinary care. Now, I know labs aren't prophylactically docked: as has been stated in other posts on this topic, they do different jobs to spaniels on a shoot. But I know a few people who have had their spaniels docked as adult dogs (because of injury) and have also had problems with wound healing and infections. One has had to have the tail taken off right at the base. Pups have a better blood supply to the tail, and don't wag as much - I've not heard of a pup which had severe infection as a result of professionally performed docking (though I'm sure it's happened somewhere to someone). FWIW, if I was buying a spaniel to work on a shoot, especially one with a lot of brambles, I'd buy a docked one. Unfortunately that means I can't buy one from the (Scottish) breeder that I'd like to get one from.
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Unfortunately that means I can't buy one from the (Scottish) breeder that I'd like to get one from.
Perhaps the time has now come for natural dock breeds to be crossed with others to introduce the gene. All it takes is seven generations for them to be registered as pure - and the KC might even consider a project just as they did with Dr Bruce Catttanach - http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html (http://www.steynmere.com/GENETICS.html)
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Really interesting stuff there Annie :thumbsup: I can totally see where you are coming from - so many breeds of dogs could be healthier, I can't understand why, with all the science behind this, is it that the KC don't promote it ???
I had to pts my dalmation at 6 years old due to mydiocard... something - she was liver spot, from Accredited Breeders, BAER tested etc - it was awful watching her go downhill :'( it broke my heart to let her go, but I knew it was her time - I owed it to her not to let her suffer (& tbh it's something I've still not got over 18 months down the line).
I just don't know why the KC knows about so many breed-related conditions & seems to be failing to do what I believed they were established for :rant:
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To be fair the KC has no teeth. It does what it can - set up the Assured breeder Scheme, but doesn't have the resources to police it. Although I DO think they could bring a number of responsible people on-board to do entry checks - there are innumerable Championship Show Judges and Field Trial Judges - they could do spot checks.
The KC also set up health testing schemes, but they are voluntary. We need legislation to enforce breeders to test ALL breeding stock prior to mating.
Any Tom Dick or Harry can mate his bitch to a friend's dog without doing ANY health tests and sell them to people who have not been educated to know there are inherited diseases that should be avoided.
Myocarditis is just one of many, I'm sorry you had to go through that. I had a litter where two of the pups had heart problems - nothing in either parent to indicate any problems till we asked in France and found it in the third generation. We kept the worst affected and let her do what she wanted till the time came for her; operated on the other which showed symptoms, and gave her to friends, she then recovered fully; and gave a partial refund to the other buyers and endorsed the pedigrees so they couldn't register pups from them. But that wouldn't have stopped them breeding from them and possibly passing the condition on. That is why we need legislation! :rant:
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I so agree with what you're saying here Annie - legislation needed :thumbsup:
If all dog owners had to micro-chip & register their animals then ... let me think :idea: this has got to make sense ... but where to begin ...
If Jane wants a puppy of X breed, then she goes to John who is a registered breeder.
In order to be a registered breeder of Xs he has to have registered with the AB Scheme (therefore known to K Club as a breeder) & be a member of a KC approved X Club (of Scotland/Cheshire etc).
Before breeding his Xs, John must be inspected by KC rep in X Club ( KC fees for the AB Scheme for each breed pay for each breed club to have inspectors) and all John's Xs are health-tested for all breed issues, micro-chipped etc. KC issues a Stage 3 Licence
So ...
John has his breeding stock tested, permanently identifiable & registered with KC. He is a member of the local X breed club, who inspect him on an annual basis that his dogs are healthy & kept over a set of minimum welfare requirements.
Jane calls John - wanting to buy a puppy from him.
Which ever region Jane lives in, she then contacts the X Club Inspector for her area who visits her at home, explains scheme & that she understands requirements of dog-keeping & anything specific to Xs requirements - Jane pays a fee (to help fund Inspector for the X club) & gets a Stage 1 licence.
Jane takes her Stage 1 licence to John, choses her puppy & pays deposit, John gets puppy micro-chipped.
Before Jane collects her puppy, she buys a Stage 2 licence from her local authority, who will use the fee towards their Animal Health/Dog Warden Officer - this will need to renewed annually. John will have to see this before Jane can take puppy home.
I know all this only covers pedigree dogs, but if every dog owner has to have a Stage 2 licence linked to the dog's micro-chip then every dog & owner will be licensed.
Am I being too simplistic with this ???
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Hi you two :wave: - this sounds like a topic deserving its own thread with a more relevant subject line?
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Yes please, new thread.
I'm dying to reply to Beewyched.
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I can sort of see the point of taking spaniel tails, but also agree that labradors have the most enthusiatic tail of any breed I have owned, perhaps docking to stiop things flying off the coffee table might be considered :innocent: !
My argument would be for terriers. I have always had Jack Russels with a tail. Can't see the point in taking it off unless someone thinks it looks neater. But the same principal would have been used for hogging and docking cobs. At least the mane grows back. I would hate Poppy to not have the chance to express herself fully by wagging her tail.
Traditionally the reasons for threequater docking a terrier are: Terriers get very much 'involved' in the undergrowth, so there is less tail to get caught (same as spaniels, I guess) and the other is when they go to ground, sometimes all you can get hold of is its tail, and docking means you dont grab the end. Some also say that if it ends up the wrong way round there is less for a fox to grab, but that seems like an odd reason.
I have used the 'handle' on my terrier loads when he was a pup and used to vanish into rabbit warrens. Stops him from going even deeper, although I must have looked a right spanner, buried up to my shoulder in rabbit warren and trying to yell at a dog.
Not really saying I agree or disagree, just giving the reasons as they have been explained to me.
I suppose it does seem illogical and slightly anthropomorphic that you can happily tail one species of mammal with impunity, off your own back for up to 5 days post-birth (sheep) and not another (dog). I would have thought the central nervous system in both is similarly well developed.
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Well said Steve :thumbsup: