[SteveHants]

Maternal indices are a component of EBV.

You have terminal sire index - to enable selection for a good meat carcase (muscle depth, fat content etc)
Maternal index (litter size, 8 week weight, mature size, maternal ability)

Often, a breeds EBV is made up of these two combined (meatlinc and wilts horns for example) but sometimes one or the other are used, Suffolks and Hampshire Downs use the terminal sire index, Lleyns and Poll Dorsets use the maternal sire index.

There is also: Longwoll index, Hill - 2 index and Welsh index.

[kanisha]

With reference to using these types of criteria in primitive breeds.... whilst I can appreciate from a production point of view these types of improvements are of value they are not necessarily the be all and end all in the conservation of primitives breeds.

perhaps more in line with conservation of endangered animals  there should be a careful eye kept in maximising diversity and genetic variance not streamlinning it.

[SteveHants]

I would suggest that animals with high vigour (and therefore good EBVs) are probably genetically varied, and inadvertently, breeding using these tools selects for a wider gene pool.

I am all for hybrid vigour - my commercials will end up all being composites and the SufTex is rightly becoming a popular terminal sire.

Unfortunatley in order to have the breeds available to hybridise, animals need to be bred pure - and I think using these tools help avoid keeping poorer animals in the breed, which I feel is a real danger if your ram selection is based on 'looks pretty at a show' alone.

[feldar]

I agree with Kanisha. Whilst i admit the Hampshires have made great inroads into improving the breed, and marketing them  for commercial flocks, i am still very worried that constant use of ARR rams is contracting our genetic pool, I have been shouted down at many a meeting over this but it is my personal view that we should maintain a varied genetic pool to pull from whatever breed we are breeding.
I feel the EBVs and figures can be misleading and too many people are picking their rams on figures and not using their most valuable asset    their eyes and hands  if your rams look good and feel good then generally they are good don't breed from a three- legged- sheep because it has good figures.
Just a personal view, we went down the signet root and found it to be very expensive with little return, we also bought  a high figured ram and he was a big disappointment
So to cut a long story short, go with the breed that " grabs " you the most because you are the one who has to look at it every day, a bit like choosing a husband, you have to wake up next to him every morning.... .

[Penninehillbilly]

Has anybody got an opinion on Jacobs?

[SteveHants]

perhaps more in line with conservation of endangered animals  there should be a careful eye kept in maximising diversity and genetic variance not streamlinning it.

And also: Endangered animals have their own selection pressure; natural selection. With domestic animals, that selection pressure is removed, so we must apply our own selections based on whatever we decide 'fitness' to mean within a breed.

Feldar: I wasn't suggesting one only used EBVs in order to select a ram, just that it ought to be a component. If no data is available when you look at the animal, then all you have to go on is 'looks right', and we all know that the best ram in the show ring aint nescessarily the ram we want. Who knows, for example what he has been fed - if its a cereal and concentrates diet, what use is he to people wanting to produce fat lambs from grass alone?

[feldar]

SteveHants; believe me i wasn't susggesting you were. It is only my personal view and i do think in certain areas of farming especially big commercial farms there is a place for them.
I wholeheartedly agree with you about the show senario even seasoned showers like ourselves have been caught out by buying a ram , and watching him melt when we get him home.
But even with the data and the fact he's a good looking animal what comes out the ewe can always be a suprise, i think it's the fun part of breeding, when we put the tups in to the girls in July we think we've chosen the best ram for the job, we checked the genetics and matched the rams to the ewes,But when the lambs come in December it can be a shock when they are consistantly small or not was expected but hey; thats breeding for you.
All i can say though is that the hampshires had to have a long hard look at the way they were going because for a while they were breeding them too lean and many were finding they couldn't finish off grass. Thankfully breeders realised that a certain amount of back fat is needed to maintain flavour and finish an animal, so a lot of breeders changed their selection of rams to include animals with higher back fat scores and this is where the figures do help. but i will say a lot of breeders had already used leaner rams accross their flocks in an attempt to increase their flock scores. These breeders had to then do a U turn to correct this and it can take a couple of years to get back on track.
Sorry i've hijacked this thread and we are going off the original subject so i will shut up now

[Penninehillbilly]

errm Perhaps all this could have a thread of its own?
I think the original question was which breed, I found it interesting reading the different advantages/ disadvantages of each breed (unbiased of course  ) rather than the genetics etc, it's getting a bit heavy going for someone who's still only considering which breed (ie me)
ooops just read the last line of feldars post but I'll press post anyway 

[Remy]

I think you should go and visit some breeders and see the sheep first hand, to see what takes your fancy.  I have an eclectic mix of crossbreed ewes, purebred Charollais, Zwartbles, Gotland, Herdwick, and a Ryeland ram.

Of all my sheep the Gotlands are by far the most friendly sheep I have ever encountered, apart from my cade lambs!  They are a medium sized breed with beautiful lustrous silver/grey fleece and black legs/faces.  However there aren't many of them in the country, so breeders tend to be rather far and wide.

The Zwartbles are another pretty friendly breed, large size, with a dark brown thick fleece and white facial markings.

The Herdwicks were wild off the fells and very flighty, but attractive sheep.

My Ryeland ram is a lovely chap, quite laid back but he has a very thick fleece and prone to fly strike.  He is brown in colour but his ewes are all white and the lambs end up white too (although some have the odd brown spots when born).

I plan to mix and match the different breeds to see what I come up with - so far, my Ryeland has mated with the crossbreed ewes and Charollais and has produced some cracking lambs.

[TheCaptain]

Portlands 

Small/medium breed, very pretty to look at, slow to mature (so your lambs will be with you for some time to enjoy them), ladies have half spiralling horns, boys have double spirals. Faces/legs are brown. fleece is a browny creamy colour, lambs are the cutest thing I've ever seen. Really nice natured sheep.

Oh, and I own some 

[Rosemary]

Must admit I fancied Portlands before we got the Ryelands and if I had room to run two flocks, they would be my next choice. Or maybe Castlemilk Moorits. So many to choose from 

[Fronhaul]

In answer to Penninehillbilly we have Jacobs.

Plus factors are looks, temperament, fantastic mothering abilities.
Minus factors for us are slow maturing, prone to foot problems.

They are without a doubt different in temperament.  I don't like where some people are trying to take the breed at the moment and it is clear from comments in the latest Jacob Journal that I am not alone in thinking biggest isn't necessarily best.  If you get hooked on the jaunty Jacob air they are addictive.

[Brijjy]

I've got Wilts Horns and I find the ewes very easy to handle because of the horns. Our first ram started well tempered enough but as he got older and bigger he turned into a right git. Needless to say he went to the market. The ram we have now seems pleasant but I will be keeping a careful eye on him. I had to inject my Wilts yesterday and my dads Beltex ewes and I have to say that the Wilts were far more relaxed about being handled. The Beltex panicked and one almost hyperventilated. Plus Beltex are damn ugly sheep. Wilts are very handsome looking.

[Small Farmer]

I thought you weren't supposed to handle sheep by the horns?  Or am I wrong about that? 

Ours don't have horns so it's never been an issue.

[darkbrowneggs]

Hi - I currently have no sheep , having sold my Wiltshire Horn as they were just to big for me to handle.  5ft tall bad back and over 60 - me that is not the sheep

For 20 years or so I had a flock of Black Welsh Mountain, which I selected after looking at the different breeds at the Three Counties Show, and speaking to the breeders, plus buying a book on sheep breeds.  I found them good for me,  They were small and intelligent enough to be biddable, but not so strong minded as some.

They were reasonably easy to tame down, though some individuals were more awkward - mainly the ones bought from the Society Show and Sale which had been brought down from the mountains.  I bought from a selection of sources, but if I was to buy again I would get from another small holder or a showing flock, simply because the sheep will have been handled more, and it makes for an easier life

BWM are easy lambers and excellent mothers, never lost anything too much once I got organized.  Generally twin after the first year (I always let my ewe lambs go the to tup and they all got in lamb with singles)

I found the rams quiet and easy to handle and allowed them to run with the ewes year round.  It made lambing a bit of surprise and it often went on a bit long, but with a small flock it made for an easier time.

They will lamb outdoors fine, but wet weather isn't good for any animals really and in the end I rigged up hurdle pens in the barn - one for each ewe - I rarely kept more than eight.  The ewes got to know their own pens and a quick whistle would send them into the barn for some nuts.  Doing it that way you know who is eating what and get them quiet.  Generally they lambed alone, though I watched the ewe lambs as they tended to have one big lamb

They have good feet and even on wet clay never had foot rot.  There feet were checked when they were shorn, but rarely needed attention

They are supposed to be fly resistant, but I did them twice a year anyway - I can't stand flystrike.

The meat is excellent.  Sweet and fat free (as long as you don't feed the lambs- they do fine on just grass)  The joints are small and the bones light and springy so more meat to bone ratio

I don't think you would do well trying to sell at market, but if you had private customers, and sold a few on for breeding they would be great.