[oaklandspigs]

oaklands i am still not convinced          the regulations that you have kindly copied         it appears the regs are primarily intended for intensive pig production only once does it mention about outside pigs (that you have to provide a dry resting area) and nowhare does it say you CANNOT KEEP ONE PIG OR STATE YOU MUST HAVE AT LEAST 2
at a public auction they sell pigs either one or all in the pen somebody bought ONE WEANER they had the cph number defra were present as were trading standards no questions asked was defra and ts equally as guilty as the keeper (by your assertions )there are several anomalies that are pertinant here
TRANSPORTING ANIMALS you need a certificate of competence to transport animals over a specified distance NOT SO you can travel the length of Britain with up to 4 animals providing there is an equal number of persons accompanying the animals without any certificate
MIXING FEED again you need a certificate for farm mixed feed NOT SO you can overlay one type of feed placed over another then the animals do there own mixing
DEATHS AND DISPOSSALS you have to pay to have your deadstock removed NO (and this is the big one that nobody has touched on with micro/pet pigs) if it is a pet and has a name you can bury it on your own land imagine the scenario pet pigs and other animals being buried up and down the country
as to being clear on the law we both have different interpretations
THE STANDSTILL PERIOD OF 20 DAYS FOR PIGS can be reduced within the regulations

Lillian,
That’s fine – if you are happy believing that pig law only applies to intensive pig production, then please go ahead and believe this.  I write on this site to help others and do not feel the need to justify to everyone.
The rest of your post just  leaves me completely mystified as to what point you are making, so I will leave it there.
PS – would still be nice if you took the trouble to clarify how I am misleading people on the marking Pigs post.

[Stevie G]

Thankfully someone has got it virtually right, except Oz only has miniature pigs and NO micro's, which by the sounds of it is a good thing.
I've toyed with the idea of growing minatures as an alternative to commercial pig farming, but am not planning on selling them to people that only have flats, but have lots of land(probably just a pipe dream)!!!!!!
Being over here in Oz, its not easy to get the full picture of whats going on over in good old Blyte, so thought I would do some digging on here.
Its certainly a very good site and will I will continue to use it, but not so much in the delving capacity, but just to talk pigs, time permitting.

[oaklandspigs]

Ok, I'll give you a fighting chance.
Ignoring that you can buy 1 pig to put with other pigs
perhaps you should look up

Defra's informal derogation on the transporting of pigs
EU Feed hygiene regulation 183/2005 on licencing of feed
Animal by-Products Regulations 2005 and EC 1774/2002 on burying pet animals (and definition of such)
No idea what standstill is about?

You might also care to read the code of recommendations for the keeping of livestock, pigs, and note the 5 principles.

[HappyHippy]

I would echo much of Karen's comments (though worry about her blood pressure ) 

My blood pressure's fine - I'm calm...........honest ! I just get stuck in rant mode when 'micro' get a mention   Sorry for being 'shouty' 

I didn't want to get brought into the single pig being illegal debate (I like it when we can all get along )
BUT
It surely can't be illegal to keep a single pig  I've seen many single pigs sold at market, to owners with no other pigs. In fact, I know of at least 2 people who have bought a single pig with no prior experience and no other pigs. If it was illegal, surely there would be a system of checking before buyers were allowed to purchase single pigs ? I don't agree with keeping just one pig (whether 'pet' or not) and I definately wouldn't recommend it - but I don't think it's against the law. Just my opinion folks, don't shoot me down   

[oaklandspigs]

[My blood pressure's fine - I'm calm...........honest ! I just get stuck in rant mode when 'micro' get a mention   Sorry for being 'shouty' 

I didn't want to get brought into the single pig being illegal debate (I like it when we can all get along )
BUT
It surely can't be illegal to keep a single pig  I've seen many single pigs sold at market, to owners with no other pigs. In fact, I know of at least 2 people who have bought a single pig with no prior experience and no other pigs. If it was illegal, surely there would be a system of checking before buyers were allowed to purchase single pigs ? I don't agree with keeping just one pig (whether 'pet' or not) and I definately wouldn't recommend it - but I don't think it's against the law. Just my opinion folks, don't shoot me down   

Karen,

Pleased to hear you're fine

On single pigs, no there is no system of checks, to create one would be incredibly onerous, and require lots of paperwork, and be out of proportion to the problem.  Not every problem needs a "can't ever let it happen" system of checks and balances behind it.  So whilst you can buy a single pig (and legally do so if you are not keeping it for breeding or not for meat), the regs I quoted above apply to all farmed animals and the definition in the regs of a farmed animal and I cannot see how you can comply with them and have a single pig - the words mean what they mean.  Much of UK law is too onerous, all embracing etc. and I would not advocate adding more checks into the system. Compliance with the law is a matter for individuals, and just as you decide whether to go at 30 through a 30 limit, you decide which laws to obey, and take any punishment should/if you be prosecuted.  Whether you are prosecuted depends on the attitude if those regulating the regulations !  I share your view that keeping a single pig is not good for the pig.

[waterhouse]

On matter of solitary pigs I have read the legislation.  It is very clear that if you keep a pig for any farming purpose then it must be able to see other pigs unless either it is farrowing or under veterinary supervision.  If it cannot then it is an offence under the Order.

So the only way to keep a solitary pig is as a pet. 

[robert waddell]

as i have pointed out and happy hippy has also stated pigs are sold as single pigs (these being farmed pigs not handled or domesticated just removed from there siblings) how can they be classed as pets?? i don't have single pigs and have also read the legislation now this illegal practise appears to be more common than it should be we have had a pet pig in the past and would not recommend having one(i have detailed about ruby in another post) and as a dedicated pig keeper you have to try to maintain life even in what would appear to be a lost cause we were lucky with a Hampshire that it integrated back with its brothers and sisters your oppinion is single pigs other than pets are illegal my oppinion is it does not state in these words that it is illegal
AS TO THE FIGHTING CHANCE IS IT NOT YOURSELF THAT IS REQUIRING THIS
you have written a book run pig courses and you have no idea what standstill is?  OK here goes standstill is when you bring new stock onto your holding and you cannot move stock of until your specified period of standstill has elapsed with pigs this is 20 days the only exception is animals to slaughter as to the transport arrangement i posted it is well documented by sue fields (pedigree Berkshire breeder)
overlaying of feed is perfectly acceptable and legal
the deaths and disposals once it is dead is the local council going to insist on it sitting in your lounge watching TV now if i dig the burial pit it will beat least 20ft deep

[Tudful Tamworths]

Lillian (or the other half - not sure who is writing), I think oaklandspigs was querying whether you understood standstill - not saying that he didn't understand it himself. I might be wrong.

Why, oh why do so many seemingly straightforward discussions on here turn into personal fights? Surely the point of this forum is to help others. Or have I got that wrong, too?

[robert waddell]

i am only trying to help others

[robert waddell]

Liz, oakland,
We are perfectly aware of the 20 day stanstill period but it seems that others are not or don't know what this means. It has been explained 2 posts up. This is easy to understand don't you think so?
Oakland has clearly said

No idea what standstill is about?

[waterhouse]

I've had a migraine for two days but after reading this thread I think I'll try to get another...

[Sudanpan]

Sometimes the problems about threads and such messages is that it 'can' be possible to read something in at least 2 different ways due to punctuation/phrase make up etc etc so a genuine misunderstanding/misinterpretation can get to be incredibly heated 

I would agree with the analogy about road speeds and legality - it is perfectly possible to break the speed limit and not get caught, but what you are doing is still illegal. Car dealers wouldn't be able to sell cars if they could only sell to people who weren't going to break the law... 

I'm sure the majority of single pigs sold at market/whatever would be to join a pig herd. However I'm also sure that there will be an ignorant minority who don't know any better, have done no research and think back to the pre DEFRA regs when it was habit to keep a single pig at the bottom of the garden to feed all kitchen food waste too..... which is of course also illegal now. 

[oaklandspigs]

Lillian,
You typed a phrase of “THE STANDSTILL PERIOD OF 20 DAYS FOR PIGS can be reduced within the regulations” as a standalone sentence – somewhat imperfectly I typed that I had no idea what point you are trying to make.  Of course I am fully aware of the 20 day standstill, it comes under Disease Control Order 2003, and is fully documented in our book and covered in detail on our courses.
I am sorry, but I no longer see value being added to a knowledge forum by continuing this thread.

[HappyHippy]

Okay folks - I think I've had THE eureka moment to end this keeping single pig argument once and for all (well, hopefully, unless I've forgotten what words mean - which is entirely possible after the day I've had lol! )

On my pig info which is printed by the Scottish Executive (so may not apply in the rest of the UK) the outside of that big orange A4 booklet it says "Codes of Recommendations for the welfare of livestock" Recommendations being the key word here, I think.
Nowhere in the text does it say it is illegal to keep a single pig (and I've read it cover to cover, twice, just to be sure) the phrase which keeps being stated from paragraph 6, section 2, subsection (c) "see other pigs, unless the pig is isolated for vetinary reasons"  comes under the umbrella of accomodation - not general stockmanship or management. From this I would assume it refers to commercial indoor systems (but you know what they say about asumptions, to assume makes an ass of u and me )
I would never recommend keeping a solitary pig for welfare reasons - but it's not a criminal offence to do so.
I doubt it'll solve the debate though   Nothing wrong with a bit of healthy debate -but the thing to remember here is WE'RE ALL ON THE SAME SIDE   There's surely no need for us all to fight about it   We all believe in keeping rare breed pigs in a traditional, high welfare manner and would never consider keeping a single pig as an option. As long as each and every one of us passes on that advice to prospective pig keepers there shouldn't be too many sad, lonely piggies out there.
Karen x

[oaklandspigs]

Why, oh why do so many seemingly straightforward discussions on here turn into personal fights? Surely the point of this forum is to help others. Or have I got that wrong, too?

TT, you are of course correct, and I am very happy to apologise for anything that might be interpreted as personal.