[Dookie]

if i recall correctly you can play the long game , if the council serve the enforcement notice they normally give you 3 months or so to rectify things before follow up action.
You submit your appeal near the end of this period or you can submit a planning application then  to gov planning inspector instead of appeal,
 He then makes decision not the council planning officer  you only pay the one fee then once. The clock stops ticking then.
There was a delay of @6weeks for it to enter the system when i did mine can be longer. Then you have a month or so if its online application to submit everything , then it can be several months before its delt with .
Think mine took 18 months from council visit till outcome.
Council told me to apply for planning permission i did they refused it and served enforcement notice.
Dont take everything council tell you as fact
If you fancy a long read take a look at what they tried with me
https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952

I've had a look... Jeez!!... Have I the nerve or even the health to go through all this... your story is an example of how the process is designed to frustrate... (Just back from the GP & blood pressure dangerously high, despite 2 weeks on medication... they tell you to avoid stress, but fat chance of that when dealing with the planners!)...

I do try to read between the lines re the council's advice, but am still worried about the costs;

A planning applictaion will be the low cost option, because if an enforcement notice is served the fee for an appeal will double as it will be considered a deemed planning application.
That means £385 fee to council and £385 fee to Planning Inspectorate.
Then you need the time to prepare the appeal or pay a professional to appeal for you, unless you are capable of making a legal argument in support of the reason why an enforcement notice was defective.

If a planning application was refused then there will be no additional fee for an appeal.

And then there's the worry that you won't even be able to appeal a retrospective application once an enforcement notice has been served... unless I'm completely misunderstanding this advice which I found on a planning website;

On 6 April 2012, the Localism Act 2011 made changes to planning enforcement to tackle abuse of retrospective planning applications:

Planning authorities can decline to determine retrospective applications after an enforcement notice has been issued.
Limits have been introduced to the right of appeal against an enforcement notice after a retrospective planning application has been submitted, but before the time for making a decision has expired, limiting appeals on technical grounds resulting in the granting of planning consent.

Still very confused about that...

I wonder why they invite you to make a retrospective application and at the same time tell you that it will 'almost certainly' be refused...?
Why would they make you waste your money in this way? Unless it's to fraudulently fill their coffers... This happened to you as well... I expect if they had to return the fees for a refusal, then it would be different...
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[mart6]

Dont let the stress/worry get to you that is part of the game they play.
Its really quite straight forward and dont take the councils statements as 100% truthful
If use of silo is kept to agricultural use cost of pp should be £95
£395 APPLIES FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL PP if i recall correctly.
The council are not allowed to assume future change of use.
Imo you get a fairer hearing with a gov planning inspector than a council planning officer
and your case will be judged on the law and facts not biased opinions
Had  to laugh  my local council seem to loose majority of enforcement notices and nearly all that apply for planning
at that stage pass.
Recent case horse owner with couple of paddocks placed big mobile home on site in green belt
Is no no go normally but he put in planning permission at enforcement appeal.
Gov planning inspector passed it because the council never had the required 5 year future housing supply plans
were it would normally had no chance.
Give me a gov planning inspector anyday they are really impartial

[Dookie]

Thanks, Mart... I really am too unwell to be dealing with this at the moment... BP was off the scale this morning... systolic pressure was 111... I think they recommend to to go straight to A&E if it passes this figure... With the meds doubled up as from yesterday, the side effects are pretty horrible... constant headache & dizzyness, although this could also be a symptom of the hypertension... I don't know why the meds are not bringing it down, but I'm at serious risk of a stroke/heart attack at this rate...)

But enough moaning... beggars can't be choosers, or I'd just let a planning consultant deal with it all... did you use one?

My council has recently made a statement to the effect it now has enough land put by to comply with the 5 year supply ...and I've checked out all the land which they say is allocated for develoment and it's mostly on green belt. I've also checked their register of brownfield sites... there are just 20 and none have been granted planning in principle (PiP)... they are such liars saying it will be a 'modest' release of greenbelt... there is nowhere else to put all these houses if there are just 20 brownfield sites, most of which were around an acre in size... mine is previously developed land (brownfied), so should be considered for furture development... they stated;

The Council looked at all opportunities to bring forward brownfield sites for development. However, there are actually very few brownfield sites and the total amount of development required means that a modest release of land from the green belt for development was necessary.
It is also relevant to note that it is a statutory requirement set out by Government that the Council must seek to meet its objectively assessed housing need. At present this figure is 250 new dwellings per year until 2025.

One thing;  this is commercial land not agricultural... they were very quick to point this out when I told them I chose a silo because it was better suited to the agricultural surroundings... There are 2 farms within a few hundred yards of my plot... both have numerous modern buildings on them......  there's a solar farm opposite... great chunks of reflective metal for acres & acres... plus the surrounding land is covered in pylons and all sorts... it's not that I'm putting a blot on the landscape or ruining a beautiful conservation area, or anything... my neighbours have silos for storage, so I'm not setting any precedent there... it's all red tape.

What I'd like to do is put in for a live/work art studio... but whether this will get opposition from locals who will worry about it being 'residential'... so perhaps I'd better just apply to retain the (unauthorised) silo as storage for tools in relation to the nature reserve... which is what it will be used for... with a mezzanine for my artwork... I don't see that there should be a curfew on hours spent here, either... you have to work on whilst the inspiration is there... you can't clock on and off... I have a washroom with table & chairs, a sofa and a microwave, fridge, etc... byt the way, last time they visited they wanted to see inside the fridge! They also noted a plumbed in washing machine. Not that it works... I'm pretty sure that a commercial premises is allowed all these things, though.

I'm so glad you were able to pursue your goat business... Maybe when I get to appeal, I will be able to live out the little time I have left ... it may be shorter than I think... I don't feel I've done anything wrong and certainly, the huge developments which are marchng across the green belt are doing far more damage to the environment than my little silo...

[mart6]

Sorry to hear about your health  problems  hope your feeling better soon
With it being brownfield i would of thought you have a good chance of planning with a gov planning inspector
deciding but that is my view. Stick to tool storage at this stage once its up rest can come later
But would be good to hear Pilemans view on both options
Would of thought you could use site for agricultural  use without pp
I know my place had planning for brick stables for equine use and i did not need permission to change use to agricultural  and research found out you  do not need planning for agricultural change of use for building if only interior alterations.
PM  did mine he is a PC  to be honest it was quite simple with hind sight you could do it yourself.
If you can get him on side it would be great very knowledgeable. 

[Dookie]

Well... just an update...  I've written to the council 4 times now and nothing back from them... But whilst perusing the local planning portal, I came across this ...

It's strange, because it states that an invitation to apply for retrospective permission would not be offered if there was no chance of it being granted.. but the enforcement officer told me quite clearly that it was not likely to be granted. Weird!

8.3Where there is a breach of planning control identified the first step in the vast majority of cases would be to negotiate a resolution and/or the Council may take one of the following courses of action:

 a)
Inviting a retrospective planning application:

 Where it is considered that planning permission is likely to be granted for anunauthorised development, or that the imposition of conditions could reduce the harm being caused or prevent harm in the future, a retrospective planning application will be invited. Submission of retrospective planning applications is not a guarantee that the Council cannot refuse the application simply because the development has already been carried out.
Many breaches of planning control occur because the applicant simply did not realise planning permission was required. A retrospective planning application enables the Council to regularise acceptable development without arbitrarily penalising the applicant.

An application would not be encouraged if it was felt the development was unacceptable.

Where a development is considered likely to be granted planning permission, or where the imposition of conditions would enable appropriate control, the Council will encourage the submission of a retrospective planning application.
This enables affected neighbours and interested parties to have their say.
 
Enforcement action:
Where the Council considers that there is no prospect of planning permission being granted, and there is an adverse impact on the built environment, the Council will proceed to formal enforcement action where negotiations to resolve the matter informally are unsuccessful.

Back in a bit, then... Very best wishes for Christmas & the New Year! Thanks for all support...Dookie

[Dookie]

This is weird... Been waiting for ages for them to write back... now had TWO emails within the space of 5 minutes- the first telling me how much the fee will be... the 2nd saying an enforcement notice will be issued... that's despite them asking me to make a retrospective application! Seems like they are trying to make some money before they serve the notice...

Application Fee:

The Planning Application fees for non – residential development (such as the silo retention) are based upon the floor area. The calculation  would include any mezzanine and not just the footprint.

A floor area of up to 40 sq. metres would require a fee of £234.

A floor area of more than 40 sq. metres but no more  than 75 sq. metres would require a fee of £462.

A floor area of more than 75  sq. metres would require a fee of £462 for every 75 sq. metres. So for example, a floor area of 76 sq. metres would require a fee of 2 x £462 = £924.

Re: Enforcement:

Thank you for your email, the contents of which are noted.

As previously discussed on our site visits, the round building (Butler Bin) is unlikely to be granted planning consent because the development is contrary to both local and national planning policy.

We will therefore be taking formal enforcement action and issuing an Enforcement Notice.  Although I cannot agree to the requested  ‘temporary stay of enforcement proceedings, (of 4 months approx)’, I can advise that we currently have a number of cases which need to be progressed to this stage (issue of a Notice) and therefore there may be a slight delay in the issue. 

Not sure what to do... the application fees are a lot more than I expected... would need a while to save up...

Merry Christmas everyone....

[arobwk]

Your on-going circumstances Dookie are beyond my ability to offer constructive comment. 
I was going to suggest that it really might be time to get a local planning advisor involved UNTIL I noted your most recent remark about having to save up even for a PA fee:  obviously funding for a planning advisor/agent is therefore even more unlikely - unfortunately. 
But it's Xmas and time to take a few days out and de-stress;  hopefully you will manage to do so Dookie - wishing you a nice relaxing Christmas.

[doganjo]

I've already said this. An enforcement notice is rarely withdrawn after it has been issued.  Can you not get a bank loan and put in the planning application immediately?  Or try crowd funding?
https://uk.gofundme.com/

[Dookie]

Your on-going circumstances Dookie are beyond my ability to offer constructive comment. 
I was going to suggest that it really might be time to get a local planning advisor involved UNTIL I noted your most recent remark about having to save up even for a PA fee:  obviously funding for a planning advisor/agent is therefore even more unlikely - unfortunately. 
But it's Xmas and time to take a few days out and de-stress;  hopefully you will manage to do so Dookie - wishing you a nice relaxing Christmas.

Yes... the most obvious thing I'm up against is a lack of money... almost anything is possible if you have the means to pay... I am a pensioner with a tiny income... I have no savings or assets.. no property to sell... just this little piece of land which is my sanctuary and sanity...(although that may change shortly, I guess)...
Thank you so much for your kind words... definitely time to take a break!
I wish you all the very best for Christmas & the New Year. x

[Dookie]

I've already said this. An enforcement notice is rarely withdrawn after it has been issued.  Can you not get a bank loan and put in the planning application immediately?  Or try crowd funding?
https://uk.gofundme.com/

Many thanks for the link, doganjo! This may be an option... No chance of a bank loan... but I do have a very kind sister who may take pity on me... I am ever the optimist... Things have not been good for me for a long while, but I feel my luck will change soon... I hope so!
All the very best for Christmas & the New Year.  x

[doganjo]

As a matter of interest, have you already taken down the original brick building?  In your first post you said you had built the silo then said you'd like to replace the brick building with the silo.  So have you already replaced it or is the brick building still there?

If it is still there can you not use that instead - or am I just being thick?  It's Christmas Eve and i haven't had a drink - saving myself for tomorrrow evening 

either way, I hope you see your sister over the next day or so and have alovely Christmas with her

[Dookie]

Haha! I hope the festivities went well and that you are none the worst for wear...

Thankfully, I kept the original building. It measures 18' x 12' and has windows facing East. So the light is there in the morning but not so much for the rest of the day. 

I bought the property with B1 permission. None of the conditions of that had been started at that point, so the first thing I did was to create the drive, turning place and parking spaces as specified in the B1 permission... the building is set quite a way back from the road.

Next I connected up to electricity & water (although there is a well, it would have been very expensive to convert).

Then I bought and installed a sewage treatment plant & installed the WC. This takes up more space than I'd like, but I think it had to comply with disability regulations. There is a small area with a sink, worktop, shelves, and the rest is 'office' space... which could be used as an artists studio quite easily, as the enforcement officer has pointed out to me... but it's a bit cramped if you want to create larger works, and as I mentioned, the natural light is lacking from around mid day... Hence the extra space in the silo, which has windows all round and two hatches in the roof space which provide amazing light throughout the day. (See attached of the inside if the silo, taken prior to the mezzanine floor being added).

I am passionate about creating the nature reserve and I have a lot of garden tools & equipment and other bits and bobs which would create a mess if stored outside...sacks of compost & flowerpots, wheelbarrows, fence posts, ladders...well, you know the kind of things which most people keep in their sheds...

I don't know how else I could store all this stuff... one of those storage containers might be allowed, but in my opinion would look ugly...and in any case, I don't have any money to buy one, so...

It always comes back to money... My main fear is the cost of taking the silo down... I'd have to sell the land to pay
for it... the worry keeps me awake at night.

Well... hopefully next year will be better... Speak again soon! D x

[doganjo]

Happy Boxing Day, Dookie

Still in a fit state to type      

Had a good Christmas day with my son, and my daughter and family. My daughter's partner was Chef this year so my daughter wasn't as stressed as usual - she had the job of keeping the prosecco topped up - from beautiful clear bottles covered in tiny pebbles, perfect for those little LED lights to go in. 

Back to the Silo - if you really do have a removal order placed on it, you will get a 'grace' period, and if you keep on appealing before it runs out (I don't think that costs anything - just a letter from you reiterating why you are appealing) that could go on for years (I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread)

Or you could try selling it on ebay or gumtree and recouping some of the costs rather than pay out more to have it taken down.  I'm presuming the component parts could be reconstituted into a silo again elsewhere if it was sold on?

Just take it a step at a time and dont stress about it - que sera etc etc  There's always a solution.  Maybe crowdfunding (or your sister ) 

Always look on the bright side of life tida tida tidadidadida

[mart6]

If they serve enforcement notice it will be remove including all materials in  @3 months or appeal
It may be to your advantage you left building up and its brownfield.
If council turn planning down they will issue a enforcement notice
You will get a fairer hearing at a appeal with gov planning inspector in my experience and their opinions
often differ from council. Sounds like council have already made minds up.

Just seen photo of inside of silo looks great for a project , shame guy on garden law never got back to you

[Dookie]

Glad you survived Chritsmas... still New Year's Eve to go...then it's onwards and (hopefully) upwards.

Yes, I guess it's like a bit of Meccano kit, really... nothing like bricks and mortar... I don't know why they are not classified as 'temporary', being as it all comes apart again...so if the worse happens, it's won't involve a demolition ball.
It's really does appeal to me aesthetically, both inside & out... and even the enforcement officer admitted to liking it... I suppose she's just doing her job.

I will definitely appeal as best I can, but it will most likely be without the benefit of a planning consultant... which is a shame, as I'm sure they would know how to get the best result.

It would be a real wrench to take it down after I've worked so hard building the interior studwork and mezzanine... I'm a woman in my sixties... and was up and down the scaffolding for months on end, as I couldn't afford to pay a builder... I had no prior experience, so it was a real achievement for me, and I'm proud of what I was able to do once I'd put my mind to it. Boy, did I ache, though!

I've a few bat boxes attached.... just praying that my furry friends will take up residence and put a spanner in the works.

Back in a bit! Dx