The Accidental Smallholder Forum

Smallholding => Buildings & planning => Topic started by: Dookie on January 01, 2019, 06:35:05 pm

Title: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on January 01, 2019, 06:35:05 pm
Hello all... I'm new here and hoping that someone may be able to help me...

I have been approached by my local planning dept and invited to make a retrospective planning application for a building (well, a silo) that I have put up without permission. I know I shoud have made an application before going ahead but I was under the impression that it would be allowed as permitted development. Not so, however, and there is an article 4 directive in place. I was told I should use a planning consultant, but I have a very limited budget (I am a pensioner).
I am wondering whether I should try & make the application without a consultant, but I just don't know where to start... 
The land is an acre of greenbelt which has a brick building on it which has B1 use, and which I would like to replace with the silo, as this woud effectively double the amount of available space whilst retaining the same footprint. The sio also looks much better as I am surrounded by agricultural land/farm buildings, etc.

Does anyone have any advice, please? Regards, Dookie


Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on January 01, 2019, 06:47:37 pm
One other thing, please... how will I know if anyone replies to my post.. does it get notified by email?
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Womble on January 01, 2019, 09:37:37 pm
Actually, you can opt to receive notifications if you like. There's a wee button next to "reply".


As for the planning permission query, you've already built the thing, so did the planning department  indicate that they were unhappy with the structure in any way, or was it just a case of getting a tick in the right box?  I think knowing that information would change the way I'd seek to approach this?
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: landroverroy on January 03, 2019, 04:18:51 pm
What do you mean by a silo Dookie? Do you mean a tall metal agricultural structure?


 
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 04, 2019, 12:48:12 pm
Oh... so sorry!! I thought I'd get an email if there were replies... I've only just seen this!! I've just posted again today...
Ok... firstly, I think the planning dept was informed by one of the locals about the silo going up and it's more like a box ticking thing... there are grain silos all over the place here, as it's all farmland (except for my bit, which used to belong to the farm until 100 years ago when it was bought by a water company to supply drinking water to the local area...) It really doesn't look out of place, but I guess they don't like it if you don't adhere to the rules...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on November 04, 2019, 02:45:49 pm
If you haven't already applied be aware that they triple the normal fees if you apply retrospectively - as a penalty.  And all necessary details will need to be documented by authorised personel - plans, electrics, drainage, build etc etc
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 05, 2019, 09:00:35 am
I didn't know that! Thank you.

If I don't make a retrospective application and just wait for an enforcement notice, would it be expensive to appeal the notice?

I've been told by the planning enforcement officer that I will definitely not get the PP as it's on greenbelt... so it just seems pointless to make a retrospective application...

I'm a bit confused as to why they are telling me to waste my money....they've told me that an enforcement notice will probably be served on me this side of Christmas, so I'm getting a bit anxious.

None of this has been in writing... they just turn up on site & question me... and I'm hard of hearing... I wish they would put it in writing so that I understand it all better.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 09:28:17 am
They are lookimg to make an enforcement notice because it has been a long time since they told you to do the retrospective planning application. It gets harder and more expensive to resolve the further you let this run. Do find a friend or a professional who can talk to the planner and interpret for you what you need to do. Once they put things in writing it is much harder to back track to a better outcome.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 06, 2019, 09:55:25 am
Ok... thank you! I really need a planning consultant, but with no savings, that's never going to happen. I did speak to a consultant about the fact that they have visited and asked me to make a retrospective application, and she informed me that I don't need to do anything until they have formalised the request by writing to me... was that bad advice, do you think...? It's very tempting to wait as I'm trying to save up the fees...but if it's true that they can send an enforcement notice without a written warning, then I would be in trouble. :'(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 11:09:37 am
I think what I would do is write a short note preferably addressed to the person who first spoke to you simply saying you have no wish to be in breach of any regulations. You understand he adviced a retrospective planning application was needed and you are saving up for the necessary fees.

That merely acknowledges their advice and doesnt actually commit you to anything. It is hard to do these things without a consultant unless you can work your way through a lot of legal guidance stuff.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on November 06, 2019, 02:22:44 pm
I think what I would do is write a short note preferably addressed to the person who first spoke to you simply saying you have no wish to be in breach of any regulations. You understand he adviced a retrospective planning application was needed and you are saving up for the necessary fees.

That merely acknowledges their advice and doesnt actually commit you to anything. It is hard to do these things without a consultant unless you can work your way through a lot of legal guidance stuff.
Excellent advice, but do you really need a planning consultant?  A good architect who knows their way around the planning and building standards systems should be all you need. If you are in Scoland it is all done on line, so they will know their way around the website too.  A site visit or two, drawings and statements, logged onto teh system, a number of email questions back, pay the money and it should be Ok.  I don't know what the sysetem is in the rest of the UK though.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pgkevet on November 06, 2019, 03:09:26 pm
I've mentioned before that when I was moving here i got in touch with local planning department to discuss what i might/might not be able to do with the place and one of the planners came down to visit. We had a long chat and the defining comment he made was how few folk actually use them in that sort of way. Things may well have changed but most such departments are there to advise and assist as well as accept or refute.
It may be possibel to explain you wish to fulfill their requests and see if they are up for arranging a meeting so they can help you out with the process.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on November 06, 2019, 05:09:24 pm
I agree with both the last 2 comments. My experience was
1) phoned the council got advise confirming the type of application and how to do it. Then planner disagreed with some of what had been said and was a lot of fiddling about but got there in the end
2) next project I asked a local councellor, 2 architects amd paid 1 to do a submission. Planner siad they would turn it down on an assumption of different future use. I phoned them and clarified our intentions and it went through with a minor adjustment

What I learnt: architect will give you free advice on what sort of application you needed and chance of success.  They are usually but not always right. They will charge for doing the submission and should guide it through
The planning office are most helpful if they understand you are genuine and trying to stay in the law but it can be difficult getting to the right person.
In my last post I refered to 'comsultant' that was a bit loose as I meant professional such as architect. The professional specialists are pricey and only needed if you have got into deep trouble or want something the planners dont want you to have.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: landroverroy on November 06, 2019, 05:47:14 pm
.
QUOTE ""-- Excellent advice, but do you really need a planning consultant?  A good architect who knows their way around the planning and building standards systems should be all you need. If you are in Scoland it is all done on line, so they will know their way around the website too.  A site visit or two, drawings and statements, logged onto teh system, a number of email questions back, pay the money and it should be Ok.  I don't know what the sysetem is in the rest of the UK though.--"" END QUOTE.



Having spent the last 3 years working my way past refused retrospective planning applications and a resultant enforcement order, I would say that a dedicated planning consultant is exactly what you need! (By the way I've not had to pay any more for a retrospective planning application than for a normal one. Perhaps the 3 x price is only in Scotland.)  An architect is an architect with a good knowledge of planning. A planning specialist is just that -  a specialist with far more detailed knowledge and experience in planning than the average architect. At the stage you are now you need expert help. An hour with a good planning expert should cost between £60 - £90/hr and is worth every penny to find out exactly where you stand.


You say you have no savings - well then I'd say that from today you'd better start living pretty frugally, or sell a body part! Because unless you get some proper professional opinion from someone soon you will end up with an enforcement order which will cost you even more money to fight, and if you still try and save money by not fighting it, then there will be a court order for you to take the silo down, or you will end up with a large fine or prison.


As a ray of encouragement, I would advise you to put in a retrospective application as suggested by the local planning dept. They don't normally ask you to do this if they are minded to refuse the application. I also agree with what Pharnorth said about keeping them in the picture about your intentions, just so they don't think that you are ignoring them. But don't take to long with your application. Your lack of funds is not their problem. I also would not take too much notice of what the enforcement officer said. I have had experience of 3 different ones over the last 3 years and they have all given me wrong information, which would caused me no end of problems had I not checked up on what they said - some of it actually being in writing and blatantly wrong.
   
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 10:41:33 am
Thank you all for your kind and helpful advice.
 
I think I should probably make a brief retrospective application to try and head off the enforcement notice... if the forms are not too complicated, I'm sure I could manage this unaided.

When that is turned down, as it most likely will be, then I can appeal it...is this correct?

So, at this point I'd need to bring in a planning specialist/consultant (?) to argue my case & say why I feel they were wrong to refuse to grant permission to keep the silo.

This would be easier/cheaper than appealing an enforcement notice... have I got that right?

I had to laugh, Roy, when you said I should start living more frugally... My total monthly income is a state pension of just £312 per month... it's very hard to save anything.

It doesn't look very good for me, but I'm not ready to give up yet... this little nature reserve is the only reason I have to get up every day.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on November 07, 2019, 10:43:59 am
Try and avoid the enforcement notice if at all possible - they are a permanent notice on your land, not time limited - well in Scotland they are anyway
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 11:03:25 am
I agree with both the last 2 comments. My experience was
1) phoned the council got advise confirming the type of application and how to do it. Then planner disagreed with some of what had been said and was a lot of fiddling about but got there in the end
2) next project I asked a local councellor, 2 architects amd paid 1 to do a submission. Planner siad they would turn it down on an assumption of different future use. I phoned them and clarified our intentions and it went through with a minor adjustment

What I learnt: architect will give you free advice on what sort of application you needed and chance of success.  They are usually but not always right. They will charge for doing the submission and should guide it through
The planning office are most helpful if they understand you are genuine and trying to stay in the law but it can be difficult getting to the right person.
In my last post I refered to 'comsultant' that was a bit loose as I meant professional such as architect. The professional specialists are pricey and only needed if you have got into deep trouble or want something the planners dont want you to have.

Hi PharNorth... I think I'm right in saying that my local Council no longer provides any kind of (free) advice.. I was told by the Planning Enforcement Officer to contact a planning consultant re the retrospective application... Great that you were able to get the right decision, though!

Weirdly, the enforcement officer told me that she actually liked my silo conversion and that it was 'quirky' but that I had no chance of getting approval for it... She was impressed that I had researched the history of the land over the past 100 years. My bulding takes up only a small area compared to the original steam powered pumping station that was in situ when first development of the land took place.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 11:07:56 am
If you haven't already applied be aware that they triple the normal fees if you apply retrospectively - as a penalty.  And all necessary details will need to be documented by authorised personel - plans, electrics, drainage, build etc etc

I think you're right that there is a penalty somewhere along the lines of tripling the fees... (I'm in Essex).
This was mentioned by the planning enforcement officer... I wasn't sure what she meant as I'm deaf and got a bit confused.
Whether this tripling of fees takes place if you try to make the retrospective application after the service of the enforcement notice, though...?
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on November 07, 2019, 11:12:31 am
If its agricultral planning permission is not as expensive.
But if they are set against it your best option may be to appeal the enforcement notice
You must appeal it if they serve it and in majority of cases  you can do it on line.
You can apply for planning permission at this stage and let gov planning inspector decide not the council
Make a post on https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=e3887fb3ab1199b1d359f7bc17c9ab78 (https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=e3887fb3ab1199b1d359f7bc17c9ab78)
There are a couple of planning consultants that help people out on there
One in perticular is great
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 11:15:55 am
I think what I would do is write a short note preferably addressed to the person who first spoke to you simply saying you have no wish to be in breach of any regulations. You understand he adviced a retrospective planning application was needed and you are saving up for the necessary fees.

That merely acknowledges their advice and doesnt actually commit you to anything. It is hard to do these things without a consultant unless you can work your way through a lot of legal guidance stuff.
Excellent advice, but do you really need a planning consultant?  ]A good architect who knows their way around the planning and building standards systems[ should be all you need. If you are in Scoland it is all done on line, so they will know their way around the website too.  A site visit or two, drawings and statements, logged onto teh system, a number of email questions back, pay the money and it should be Ok.  I don't know what the sysetem is in the rest of the UK though.

Sounds so easy when you put it like that! Remember though... this is not a standard building... it's just a grain silo... it will be used to store garden tools, equipment .. a glorified potting shed... I have put electricity in there, but water and drainage, although in place are not connected.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 11:27:39 am
If its agricultral planning permission is not as expensive.
But if they are set against it your best option may be to appeal the enforcement notice
You must appeal it if they serve it and in majority of cases  you can do it on line.
You can apply for planning permission at this stage and let gov planning inspector decide not the council
Make a post on https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=e3887fb3ab1199b1d359f7bc17c9ab78 (https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=9&sid=e3887fb3ab1199b1d359f7bc17c9ab78)
There are a couple of planning consultants that help people out on there
One in perticular is great

Thanks, Mart... it was agricultural land over 100 years ago before the land was bought by a local water company which dug a deep well and built a pumping station to supply water to the local area.
The surrounding land still belongs to the same farm which sold it off.

My plot is now designated as PDL (previously developed land)... it has a redundant pumping station on it which was decommisioned some time ago, and has been granted B1 use... no problems there, but I added a grain silo for extra storage, without first getting permission. I thought it would be ok, but there is an article 4 direction on the land which has stripped away the permitted development rights, unfortunately... otherwise, I believe there would have been no need to make a planning application as redundant commercial buildings have automatic permission to convert into residential... is that correct?

My problem is that I have no funds to go to court and fight an enforcement notice... :(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on November 07, 2019, 11:31:47 am
Post on that site let me know if you do will tell you whos advice to follow.
How long has silo been there ?
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 12:50:07 pm
About 18 months... I'm not sure why they'd turn it down as my nearest neighbour has a car workshop and has two silos as storage... but there is no rhyme or reason... another landowner 2 fileds away and with an almost identical plot with two sheds on it has been granted PP to turn them into houses... All greenbelt land & he is in the coastal zone to boot!!


Just been looking on the site... looks very informative, but it won't allow me to search for stuff yet... I will check my email to see if they have confirmed my application to join.  :fc:

Edit: Apparently, the developer paid the planning dept a sum of money which they agreed would "mitigate the effects of the development on the environment", whatever that means...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 07, 2019, 01:41:43 pm
Post on that site let me know if you do will tell you whos advice to follow.
How long has silo been there ?

Thanks! There seems to be a problem, as they have not verified my registration yet... very slow here atm...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on November 07, 2019, 09:14:12 pm
Post on that site let me know if you do will tell you whos advice to follow.
How long has silo been there ?

Thanks! There seems to be a problem, as they have not verified my registration yet... very slow here atm...
They will approve you give it time, good source for planning advise
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: landroverroy on November 09, 2019, 11:27:12 am
There are several good property forums on facebook - among them - UK Property Traders and UK land and planning.

There are on there some very experienced and helpful people who will give you good advice. You should be able to distinguish these from those who merely state their opinion and can mislead you!
I would suggest you join one or both. You should then be accepted today and hopefully have some genuine advice by this evening. :fc:


But a word of advise - tell them the whole story (but concisely!) in the first instant, including your conversation with the planners, how much land you have, its history, and it's existing planning, the fact that PD has been withdrawn, whether you are living there and what your intentions are with the land. It saves taking up the first few days with questions and answers in order to establish the full facts, by which time someone really knowledgeable may have lost interest. :innocent:
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on November 11, 2019, 05:19:32 pm
Oh... thank you so much for that... I must admit I've never been on FB... so that will be something new!

I guess some people are afraid to say too much for fear of being spied on by others who may not have their best interests at heart... I don't know...

But yes, it would certainly save time if people are upfront.

My computer is old and ailing and I can't afford a new one I've been unsuccessful in getting onto the GardenLaw site... I got this message;

'The username you entered is already in use, please select an alternative.
    The entered email address is already in use.'


Next time I tried I got this;

The specified username is currently inactive. If you have problems activating your account, please contact a board administrator.

Not sure how I can contact a board admin if I can't access the site... Hmmm...

Well, anyway, despite being very ill with some virus, (a bit like my computer), I managed to write to the council to tell them that I'm now waiting to hear from a planning consultant, (true), and that I intended to comply fully with the request for the retrospective application, blah, blah. I hope that will stall them for a bit...

I went to the planning portal and looked up all the previous applications relating to my property, a quite recent one being an application to change the use of the existing building from Sui Generis to B1 use. This was initially refused by the council (suprise, surprise), but then went to appeal, where permission was granted as it was said that the site would just become overgrown scrub with a derelict building on it if it was not allowed to be used... I noticed that the supporting letter for this application was from a planning consultant that I had previously spoken to and was intending to use (funds permitting), and most of this letter is still relevant, and would, hopefully, help save some money.
Just waiting to hear back now...  :fc:

Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 02, 2019, 01:41:53 pm
Ahhh.... I was lost in the wilderness for a while there... have finally found my way home...

What I wanted to say was that I've posted on the Garden Law forum... only received one reply so far... that was from Mr. Sheen.... Can't say they were very encouraging!

I think what I need to do now is to write to the planning Enforcement officer to see if she is able to delay the enforcement notice until my planning consultant returns to work in March... otherwise I will just have to make a quick planning application & provide a supporting letter if & when it goes to appeal...

Not very well atm... GP said to avoid stress! :(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on December 03, 2019, 04:33:53 am
Fingers crossed, sounds like a sensible plan
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 03, 2019, 09:19:04 am
Yes... I'll do that then...although they don't often reply when I write so it's a bit hit & miss...and they have never put anything in writing to me, even though there have been two site visits... :(

One thing that I've just found out about and which is quite worrying, is that the LPA can refuse to consider an application after the enforcement notice is served... See here- I don't understand the last sentence... any idea, please?

On 6 April 2012, the Localism Act 2011 made changes to planning enforcement to tackle abuse of retrospective planning applications:

    Planning authorities can decline to determine retrospective applications after an enforcement notice has been issued.
    Limits have been introduced to the right of appeal against an enforcement notice after a retrospective planning application has been submitted, but before the time for making a decision has expired.
    Limiting appeals on technical grounds resulting in the granting of planning consent.

Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on December 03, 2019, 09:10:52 pm
Nope. I am reasonably literate but that sentance is a grammatical nightmare.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 04, 2019, 08:17:02 am
That's what I thought... ???
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 04, 2019, 12:33:54 pm
Read it without teh other two lines and it's abit better - On 6 April 2012, the Localism Act 2011 made changes to planning enforcement to tackle abuse of retrospective planning applications - Limiting appeals on technical grounds resulting in the granting of planning consent.

This isn't mentioned in the Localism Act
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 05, 2019, 11:35:02 pm
Did  P  get back to you on Gardenlaw forum ?
His advise will be top notch he helped me ran rings around my local pd when everyone else said no chance
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 06, 2019, 04:04:52 pm
Hi Mart... nothing yet... I've heard good things about Pilman... I hoe he gets back to me soon...feeling a bit panicky as the planning enforcement officer deosn't respond to my emails... just worried an enforcement notice will be issued in the meantime. :(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: landroverroy on December 06, 2019, 04:36:27 pm
If you're worried, then ring the enforcement officer up and explain things in person. Direct communication can work wonders.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 07, 2019, 08:31:59 am
Thanks... it's a good idea, but I'm very deaf... have to wear 2 hearing aids...I prefer things in writing, too, just in case I've misheard something important.... but I do think it's a bit rotten of them not to even send an acknowledgement... >:(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 07, 2019, 10:47:44 am
Thanks... it's a good idea, but I'm very deaf... have to wear 2 hearing aids...I prefer things in writing, too, just in case I've misheard something important.... but I do think it's a bit rotten of them not to even send an acknowledgement... >:(
You can explain that when you ring them. Or have someone else with you to take over if you can't hear properly
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 08, 2019, 12:00:19 am
Hi Mart... nothing yet... I've heard good things about Pilman... I hoe he gets back to me soon...feeling a bit panicky as the planning enforcement officer deosn't respond to my emails... just worried an enforcement notice will be issued in the meantime. :(
Dont panic if they serve enforcement notice you can appeal it  wait till last few days  there was a massive back log
could take months then.
You can do a straight forward appeal or submit planning application then.
In my opinion its better to let gov planning inspector decide some councils really tell you crap
Pileman may help you sort it  he really knows his stuff everyone and his dog said i had no chance against my enforcement notice. Council told blatant lies and he made them look like fools.Gov planning inspector was not impressed with them and quashed it
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 08, 2019, 07:38:35 am
Thank you....the only thing is;  if I wait for the enforcement, (which is imminent), I'd only have 28 days to submit an appeal, whereas if I put in a planning application, I'd then have up to 6 months to appeal & prepare a case ... is this correct?

The 6 months would allow me to save up enough money to pay the planning consultant.. Or can I appeal first and then start to prepare a case whilst I'm waiting for a date for it to be heard...?

Also, the planning application is double the fee if I wait for the enforcement notice, but if I make an application first, then the appeal will be free. Or that's as I understand it... So confusing! I only have a small pension to live on and have to budget carefully...

Would you say, Mart, that it is relatively easy to fill in the forms for the planning application (without a consultant at this stage)... I mean, do I need to have a supporting letter, maps, etc., or can I just rely on the previous owner's planning applications, which show that flood assessment, etc, has already been carried out...?     :-\
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 08, 2019, 03:21:04 pm
You'll need architect drawings if it's fro a house.  If just fro a store then your own drwaings may suffice, ot those of teh previous owner.  Biut you will need to submit everything with your application.  Do you have an onlinr portal in England? We can apply online in scotland for planning and for building warrants  https://www.eplanning.scot/ePlanningClient/ (https://www.eplanning.scot/ePlanningClient/)

Just found this - dioes it help? https://www.planningportal.co.uk/ (https://www.planningportal.co.uk/)
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 08, 2019, 03:55:58 pm
if i recall correctly you can play the long game , if the council serve the enforcement notice they normally give you 3 months or so to rectify things before follow up action.
You submit your appeal near the end of this period or you can submit a planning application then  to gov planning inspector instead of appeal,
 He then makes decision not the council planning officer  you only pay the one fee then once. The clock stops ticking then.
There was a delay of @6weeks for it to enter the system when i did mine can be longer. Then you have a month or so if its online application to submit everything , then it can be several months before its delt with .
Think mine took 18 months from council visit till outcome.
Council told me to apply for planning permission i did they refused it and served enforcement notice.
Dont take everything council tell you as fact
If you fancy a long read take a look at what they tried with me
https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952 (https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952)
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 08, 2019, 06:05:35 pm
So, #mart6 did you find out who was 'pushing' the council?  Who wanted your land?
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 09, 2019, 11:31:56 am
You'll need architect drawings if it's fro a house.  If just fro a store then your own drwaings may suffice, ot those of teh previous owner.  Biut you will need to submit everything with your application.  Do you have an onlinr portal in England? We can apply online in scotland for planning and for building warrants  https://www.eplanning.scot/ePlanningClient/ (https://www.eplanning.scot/ePlanningClient/)

Just found this - dioes it help? https://www.planningportal.co.uk/ (https://www.planningportal.co.uk/)

Hi doganjo... not a house.. just a grain silo for storage... circular, 18' diameter... with a mezzanine level...but how I'm going to work out the floor space, though... (?) does it have to be in cubic metres or something...?

Hopefully, there's an online form, which means I don't need to print in triplicate, etc...

But there's a lot of stuff alreadt in place where the other building was granted permission to B1 use, previously sui generis

I'm wondering if that B1 use is in perpetuity or if it reverts back after 3 years...

Not sure even if that matters as I think an art stuodio will come under sui generis, rather than B1.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 09, 2019, 11:41:54 am
So, #mart6 did you find out who was 'pushing' the council?  Who wanted your land?

There was a very high profile case round my way a few years ago which involved a large multi-plot traveller site... you may have read about it in the papers or seen it on the news.

Anyway, it took the council more than 10 years to get them off the unauthorised site... there was a court case and it cost millions, aparently.

A few years after, the land, which was still owned by the travellers, was bought by the council, at £1m per plot, to be used for ....housing!

Crazy waste of taxpayer money.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 09, 2019, 01:24:26 pm
if i recall correctly you can play the long game , if the council serve the enforcement notice they normally give you 3 months or so to rectify things before follow up action.
You submit your appeal near the end of this period or you can submit a planning application then  to gov planning inspector instead of appeal,
 He then makes decision not the council planning officer  you only pay the one fee then once. The clock stops ticking then.
There was a delay of @6weeks for it to enter the system when i did mine can be longer. Then you have a month or so if its online application to submit everything , then it can be several months before its delt with .
Think mine took 18 months from council visit till outcome.
Council told me to apply for planning permission i did they refused it and served enforcement notice.
Dont take everything council tell you as fact
If you fancy a long read take a look at what they tried with me
https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952 (https://www.gardenlaw.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=19952)

I've had a look... Jeez!!... Have I the nerve or even the health to go through all this... your story is an example of how the process is designed to frustrate... (Just back from the GP & blood pressure dangerously high, despite 2 weeks on medication... they tell you to avoid stress, but fat chance of that when dealing with the planners!)...

I do try to read between the lines re the council's advice, but am still worried about the costs;

A planning applictaion will be the low cost option, because if an enforcement notice is served the fee for an appeal will double as it will be considered a deemed planning application.
That means £385 fee to council and £385 fee to Planning Inspectorate.
Then you need the time to prepare the appeal or pay a professional to appeal for you, unless you are capable of making a legal argument in support of the reason why an enforcement notice was defective.

If a planning application was refused then there will be no additional fee for an appeal.


And then there's the worry that you won't even be able to appeal a retrospective application once an enforcement notice has been served... unless I'm completely misunderstanding this advice which I found on a planning website;

On 6 April 2012, the Localism Act 2011 made changes to planning enforcement to tackle abuse of retrospective planning applications:

Planning authorities can decline to determine retrospective applications after an enforcement notice has been issued.
Limits have been introduced to the right of appeal against an enforcement notice after a retrospective planning application has been submitted, but before the time for making a decision has expired, limiting appeals on technical grounds resulting in the granting of planning consent.


Still very confused about that...

I wonder why they invite you to make a retrospective application and at the same time tell you that it will 'almost certainly' be refused...?
Why would they make you waste your money in this way? Unless it's to fraudulently fill their coffers... This happened to you as well... I expect if they had to return the fees for a refusal, then it would be different... >:(
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Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 09, 2019, 09:40:40 pm
Dont let the stress/worry get to you that is part of the game they play.
Its really quite straight forward and dont take the councils statements as 100% truthful
If use of silo is kept to agricultural use cost of pp should be £95
£395 APPLIES FOR RESIDENTIAL AND COMMERCIAL PP if i recall correctly.
The council are not allowed to assume future change of use.
Imo you get a fairer hearing with a gov planning inspector than a council planning officer
and your case will be judged on the law and facts not biased opinions
Had  to laugh  my local council seem to loose majority of enforcement notices and nearly all that apply for planning
at that stage pass.
Recent case horse owner with couple of paddocks placed big mobile home on site in green belt
Is no no go normally but he put in planning permission at enforcement appeal.
Gov planning inspector passed it because the council never had the required 5 year future housing supply plans
were it would normally had no chance.
Give me a gov planning inspector anyday they are really impartial
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 10, 2019, 06:00:40 pm
Thanks, Mart... I really am too unwell to be dealing with this at the moment... BP was off the scale this morning... systolic pressure was 111... I think they recommend to to go straight to A&E if it passes this figure... With the meds doubled up as from yesterday, the side effects are pretty horrible... constant headache & dizzyness, although this could also be a symptom of the hypertension... :( I don't know why the meds are not bringing it down, but I'm at serious risk of a stroke/heart attack at this rate...)

But enough moaning... beggars can't be choosers, or I'd just let a planning consultant deal with it all... did you use one?

My council has recently made a statement to the effect it now has enough land put by to comply with the 5 year supply ...and I've checked out all the land which they say is allocated for develoment and it's mostly on green belt. I've also checked their register of brownfield sites... there are just 20 and none have been granted planning in principle (PiP)... they are such liars saying it will be a 'modest' release of greenbelt... there is nowhere else to put all these houses if there are just 20 brownfield sites, most of which were around an acre in size... mine is previously developed land (brownfied), so should be considered for furture development... they stated;

The Council looked at all opportunities to bring forward brownfield sites for development. However, there are actually very few brownfield sites and the total amount of development required means that a modest release of land from the green belt for development was necessary.
It is also relevant to note that it is a statutory requirement set out by Government that the Council must seek to meet its objectively assessed housing need. At present this figure is 250 new dwellings per year until 2025.


One thing;  this is commercial land not agricultural... they were very quick to point this out when I told them I chose a silo because it was better suited to the agricultural surroundings... There are 2 farms within a few hundred yards of my plot... both have numerous modern buildings on them......  there's a solar farm opposite... great chunks of reflective metal for acres & acres... plus the surrounding land is covered in pylons and all sorts... it's not that I'm putting a blot on the landscape or ruining a beautiful conservation area, or anything... my neighbours have silos for storage, so I'm not setting any precedent there... it's all red tape.

What I'd like to do is put in for a live/work art studio... but whether this will get opposition from locals who will worry about it being 'residential'... so perhaps I'd better just apply to retain the (unauthorised) silo as storage for tools in relation to the nature reserve... which is what it will be used for... with a mezzanine for my artwork... I don't see that there should be a curfew on hours spent here, either... you have to work on whilst the inspiration is there... you can't clock on and off... I have a washroom with table & chairs, a sofa and a microwave, fridge, etc... byt the way, last time they visited they wanted to see inside the fridge! They also noted a plumbed in washing machine. Not that it works... I'm pretty sure that a commercial premises is allowed all these things, though.

I'm so glad you were able to pursue your goat business... Maybe when I get to appeal, I will be able to live out the little time I have left ... it may be shorter than I think... I don't feel I've done anything wrong and certainly, the huge developments which are marchng across the green belt are doing far more damage to the environment than my little silo...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 10, 2019, 07:31:58 pm
Sorry to hear about your health  problems  hope your feeling better soon
With it being brownfield i would of thought you have a good chance of planning with a gov planning inspector
deciding but that is my view. Stick to tool storage at this stage once its up rest can come later
But would be good to hear Pilemans view on both options
Would of thought you could use site for agricultural  use without pp
I know my place had planning for brick stables for equine use and i did not need permission to change use to agricultural  and research found out you  do not need planning for agricultural change of use for building if only interior alterations.
PM  did mine he is a PC  to be honest it was quite simple with hind sight you could do it yourself.
If you can get him on side it would be great very knowledgeable. 
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 23, 2019, 11:01:23 am
Well... just an update...  I've written to the council 4 times now and nothing back from them... But whilst perusing the local planning portal, I came across this ...

It's strange, because it states that an invitation to apply for retrospective permission would not be offered if there was no chance of it being granted.. but the enforcement officer told me quite clearly that it was not likely to be granted. Weird!

8.3Where there is a breach of planning control identified the first step in the vast majority of cases would be to negotiate a resolution and/or the Council may take one of the following courses of action:

 a)
Inviting a retrospective planning application:

 Where it is considered that planning permission is likely to be granted for anunauthorised development, or that the imposition of conditions could reduce the harm being caused or prevent harm in the future, a retrospective planning application will be invited. Submission of retrospective planning applications is not a guarantee that the Council cannot refuse the application simply because the development has already been carried out.
Many breaches of planning control occur because the applicant simply did not realise planning permission was required. A retrospective planning application enables the Council to regularise acceptable development without arbitrarily penalising the applicant.

An application would not be encouraged if it was felt the development was unacceptable.

Where a development is considered likely to be granted planning permission, or where the imposition of conditions would enable appropriate control, the Council will encourage the submission of a retrospective planning application.
This enables affected neighbours and interested parties to have their say.
 
Enforcement action:
Where the Council considers that there is no prospect of planning permission being granted, and there is an adverse impact on the built environment, the Council will proceed to formal enforcement action where negotiations to resolve the matter informally are unsuccessful.

Back in a bit, then... Very best wishes for Christmas & the New Year! Thanks for all support...Dookie
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 23, 2019, 05:45:42 pm
This is weird... Been waiting for ages for them to write back... now had TWO emails within the space of 5 minutes- the first telling me how much the fee will be... the 2nd saying an enforcement notice will be issued... that's despite them asking me to make a retrospective application! Seems like they are trying to make some money before they serve the notice...

Application Fee:

The Planning Application fees for non – residential development (such as the silo retention) are based upon the floor area. The calculation  would include any mezzanine and not just the footprint.

A floor area of up to 40 sq. metres would require a fee of £234.

A floor area of more than 40 sq. metres but no more  than 75 sq. metres would require a fee of £462.

A floor area of more than 75  sq. metres would require a fee of £462 for every 75 sq. metres. So for example, a floor area of 76 sq. metres would require a fee of 2 x £462 = £924.


Re: Enforcement:

Thank you for your email, the contents of which are noted.

As previously discussed on our site visits, the round building (Butler Bin) is unlikely to be granted planning consent because the development is contrary to both local and national planning policy.

We will therefore be taking formal enforcement action and issuing an Enforcement Notice.  Although I cannot agree to the requested  ‘temporary stay of enforcement proceedings, (of 4 months approx)’, I can advise that we currently have a number of cases which need to be progressed to this stage (issue of a Notice) and therefore there may be a slight delay in the issue. 


Not sure what to do... the application fees are a lot more than I expected... would need a while to save up...

Merry Christmas everyone.... :(
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: arobwk on December 23, 2019, 06:23:47 pm
Your on-going circumstances Dookie are beyond my ability to offer constructive comment. 
I was going to suggest that it really might be time to get a local planning advisor involved UNTIL I noted your most recent remark about having to save up even for a PA fee:  obviously funding for a planning advisor/agent is therefore even more unlikely - unfortunately. 
But it's Xmas and time to take a few days out and de-stress;  hopefully you will manage to do so Dookie - wishing you a nice relaxing Christmas.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 23, 2019, 07:45:15 pm
I've already said this. An enforcement notice is rarely withdrawn after it has been issued.  Can you not get a bank loan and put in the planning application immediately?  Or try crowd funding?
https://uk.gofundme.com/
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 24, 2019, 06:25:41 pm
Your on-going circumstances Dookie are beyond my ability to offer constructive comment. 
I was going to suggest that it really might be time to get a local planning advisor involved UNTIL I noted your most recent remark about having to save up even for a PA fee:  obviously funding for a planning advisor/agent is therefore even more unlikely - unfortunately. 
But it's Xmas and time to take a few days out and de-stress;  hopefully you will manage to do so Dookie - wishing you a nice relaxing Christmas.

Yes... the most obvious thing I'm up against is a lack of money... almost anything is possible if you have the means to pay... I am a pensioner with a tiny income... I have no savings or assets.. no property to sell... just this little piece of land which is my sanctuary and sanity...(although that may change shortly, I guess)...
Thank you so much for your kind words... definitely time to take a break!
I wish you all the very best for Christmas & the New Year. x
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 24, 2019, 06:32:18 pm
I've already said this. An enforcement notice is rarely withdrawn after it has been issued.  Can you not get a bank loan and put in the planning application immediately?  Or try crowd funding?
https://uk.gofundme.com/

Many thanks for the link, doganjo! This may be an option... No chance of a bank loan... but I do have a very kind sister who may take pity on me... I am ever the optimist... Things have not been good for me for a long while, but I feel my luck will change soon... I hope so!
All the very best for Christmas & the New Year.  x
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 24, 2019, 10:38:15 pm
As a matter of interest, have you already taken down the original brick building?  In your first post you said you had built the silo then said you'd like to replace the brick building with the silo.  So have you already replaced it or is the brick building still there?

If it is still there can you not use that instead - or am I just being thick?  It's Christmas Eve and i haven't had a drink - saving myself for tomorrrow evening  :roflanim:

either way, I hope you see your sister over the next day or so and have alovely Christmas with her
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 26, 2019, 08:39:50 am
Haha! I hope the festivities went well and that you are none the worst for wear...

Thankfully, I kept the original building. It measures 18' x 12' and has windows facing East. So the light is there in the morning but not so much for the rest of the day.  :(

I bought the property with B1 permission. None of the conditions of that had been started at that point, so the first thing I did was to create the drive, turning place and parking spaces as specified in the B1 permission... the building is set quite a way back from the road.

Next I connected up to electricity & water (although there is a well, it would have been very expensive to convert).

Then I bought and installed a sewage treatment plant & installed the WC. This takes up more space than I'd like, but I think it had to comply with disability regulations. There is a small area with a sink, worktop, shelves, and the rest is 'office' space... which could be used as an artists studio quite easily, as the enforcement officer has pointed out to me... but it's a bit cramped if you want to create larger works, and as I mentioned, the natural light is lacking from around mid day... Hence the extra space in the silo, which has windows all round and two hatches in the roof space which provide amazing light throughout the day. (See attached of the inside if the silo, taken prior to the mezzanine floor being added).

I am passionate about creating the nature reserve and I have a lot of garden tools & equipment and other bits and bobs which would create a mess if stored outside...sacks of compost & flowerpots, wheelbarrows, fence posts, ladders...well, you know the kind of things which most people keep in their sheds...

I don't know how else I could store all this stuff... one of those storage containers might be allowed, but in my opinion would look ugly...and in any case, I don't have any money to buy one, so...

It always comes back to money... My main fear is the cost of taking the silo down... I'd have to sell the land to pay
for it... the worry keeps me awake at night. :gloomy:

Well... hopefully next year will be better... Speak again soon! D x
Title: THE SILO
Post by: doganjo on December 26, 2019, 10:18:39 am
Happy Boxing Day, Dookie

Still in a fit state to type   :innocent:  :excited: :excited: 

Had a good Christmas day with my son, and my daughter and family. My daughter's partner was Chef this year so my daughter wasn't as stressed as usual - she had the job of keeping the prosecco topped up - from beautiful clear bottles covered in tiny pebbles, perfect for those little LED lights to go in.  :thumbsup:

Back to the Silo - if you really do have a removal order placed on it, you will get a 'grace' period, and if you keep on appealing before it runs out (I don't think that costs anything - just a letter from you reiterating why you are appealing) that could go on for years (I think someone mentioned that earlier in the thread)

Or you could try selling it on ebay or gumtree and recouping some of the costs rather than pay out more to have it taken down.  I'm presuming the component parts could be reconstituted into a silo again elsewhere if it was sold on?

Just take it a step at a time and dont stress about it - que sera etc etc  There's always a solution.  Maybe crowdfunding (or your sister :) ) 

Always look on the bright side of life tida tida tidadidadida :sunshine: :sunshine:
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 26, 2019, 07:19:52 pm
If they serve enforcement notice it will be remove including all materials in  @3 months or appeal
It may be to your advantage you left building up and its brownfield.
If council turn planning down they will issue a enforcement notice
You will get a fairer hearing at a appeal with gov planning inspector in my experience and their opinions
often differ from council. Sounds like council have already made minds up.

Just seen photo of inside of silo looks great for a project , shame guy on garden law never got back to you
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 27, 2019, 05:17:37 pm
Glad you survived Chritsmas... still New Year's Eve to go...then it's onwards and (hopefully) upwards.

Yes, I guess it's like a bit of Meccano kit, really... nothing like bricks and mortar... I don't know why they are not classified as 'temporary', being as it all comes apart again...so if the worse happens, it's won't involve a demolition ball.
It's really does appeal to me aesthetically, both inside & out... and even the enforcement officer admitted to liking it... I suppose she's just doing her job.

I will definitely appeal as best I can, but it will most likely be without the benefit of a planning consultant... which is a shame, as I'm sure they would know how to get the best result.

It would be a real wrench to take it down after I've worked so hard building the interior studwork and mezzanine... I'm a woman in my sixties... and was up and down the scaffolding for months on end, as I couldn't afford to pay a builder... I had no prior experience, so it was a real achievement for me, and I'm proud of what I was able to do once I'd put my mind to it. Boy, did I ache, though!

I've a few bat boxes attached.... just praying that my furry friends will take up residence and put a spanner in the works. :fc:

Back in a bit! Dx
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: pharnorth on December 27, 2019, 06:54:20 pm
I think it is beautiful.  Maybe you could enter the building itself in for the Turner Prize or something?  If there is a suitable award I would happily nominate it. Might slow the council down!
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: landroverroy on December 27, 2019, 09:31:54 pm
As Doganjo said - once the enforcement order is issued (and that could take some time) you will then get a chance to appeal and that all takes months so you could easily string this out for a couple of years. I was issued an enforcement order in 2017 and we appealed and we are still fighting it. As also mentioned, I believe, the planning inspectorate officer is a much more human person than your average local planning officer, and is as much concerned with common sense than by trying to stop your development. I have won one appeal against enforcement and the decision virtually said (but politely) that the local planners were talking rubbish and totally overturned their decision.


That being said - you want more than just a time delay. You want success. :thumbsup:  So having said that you'll have a better chance with the planning inspector (who handles the enforcement appeal) than with your local planning officer,  then you want to give your appeal against enforcement your very best effort. And I'm afraid that "most likely without the benefit of a planning consultant" will most likely not be good enough. You do need one.


There must be a way you can raise some money. :thinking:  Babysitting? Dog walking? (Ok forget selling the body parts - you'll probably need them all. ) Just find something. :fc:  Talking to your generous sister sounds a good option. Get her really involved in your dream.
In the meantime - knowledge is power. Do some research on the internet and see if you can find a similar case that was successful. Martin Goodall's Planning Blog has some useful information. I got some useful info from that. 


Finally - the planning consultant. Get a good one. Look at local planning successes and see who did the applications. In particular look at who has had successful appeals. Talk to a few until you get to speak to someone who thinks you have a chance. Most will give you a free hearing and let you have their opinion. Pointless choosing someone who tells you from the start that you're wasting your time. I've had a few of them, and just moved on till  I found someone who could think outside the box.
I have also had some good and encouraging advice from various forums on facebook such as Property Developers' Secrets and Property Owners' forum. They are well worth joining and explaining as fully as possible your situation. There is some real knowledge and experience there for the asking.
 
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 28, 2019, 10:22:50 am
I think it is beautiful.  Maybe you could enter the building itself in for the Turner Prize or something?  If there is a suitable award I would happily nominate it. Might slow the council down!
Oh thank you! Yes... it is a bit like a giant art installation, I guess... :)
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 28, 2019, 10:42:53 am
Thank you, Landrover Roy! All much appreciated... :)

A local land owner, in the next field, but one, managed to get planning permission to build a pair of semi detached cottages to replace an old storage shed.

There's no difference between his land and mine; both on greenbelt, and his land is closer to the coastal path than mine... I don't think his old sheds were as well established as my original building.

This is previously developed land which has had a building on it for the last 100 years. The original building being 4 times the size of the one in place now.

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to try and speak the same planning consultant, as they will know all the probems I'm likely to come up against...?

I'm very pleased to say that Mr. Pilman (on the other place) has been in touch... Hopefully he may have some good advice for me along the way!

I hope that you will win with your appeal....

I'm so grateful to you all... Good Luck, everyone, and a very Happy New Year!  Dx
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 28, 2019, 12:42:37 pm
Great P has been in touch
Very knowledgeable .
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed
The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 29, 2019, 11:46:27 am
Great Pileman has been in touch
Very knowledgeable . Yes!
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed.

But you had a bona fide reason to go down the agricultural route... I could see that those things were essential to running your business...Whereas i've already told the enforcement officer of my plans for an art studio and nature reserve

The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

But would I need to apply for a change of use from brownfield to agricultural...? Will my intention to create and manage a nature reserve be considered to be "agricultural"? (I don't even have a holding number... it's less than an acre and with no possibility of aquiring more land). And whether a change of use to agricutural might be detrimental in the longer term, seeing as brownfield land is more likely to gain future permission for residential use than agricutural land? Sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees, so need to sort out all the possibilites of any change in direction at this point...

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

Definitely worth a try, because the fee is so much cheaper! Whether they'd believe I was using it to dry grass, though... There is no such grass here which would be of a suitable quality for drying/storing as hay... But I will definitely be hanging up bunches of wildflowers to dry out for the seed and I don't see that would really be so different...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 29, 2019, 11:49:31 am
Not quite sure what I've done there... will try and sort it out,,, :-\ :dunce:
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 29, 2019, 12:25:19 pm
I've used the planning portal here in Scotland - the building standards one.  I built a conservatory onto my old house but didn't get a building warrant at the time, so I've had to apply retrospectively because the buyers lawyer wanted proof it had been built properly.  It's not the easiest of sites to navigate but certainly easier than applying in writing.  And it goes ditrect to the relevant council.

You can attach any documents required - in various formats (pdf, jpg etc)

But the fee is dependant on the 'value of works' i.e. cost - of the work done - so make sure you don't add in your own work, just add up the cost of materials, plus any money paid to anyone who helped you, unless it was cash in which case forget that.  I'm not convinced your fee will be as low as £96 but I don't know how much the silo cost you.

If the use is agricultural such as drying hay for feed, or even drying wild flowers for a hobby/small business in embryo then make it an agricultural application.
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: SallyintNorth on December 29, 2019, 12:56:12 pm
Something wrong with the colourising.  Here it is with that removed.

Great Pileman has been in touch
Very knowledgeable . Yes!
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed.

But you had a bona fide reason to go down the agricultural route... I could see that those things were essential to running your business...Whereas i've already told the enforcement officer of my plans for an art studio and nature reserve

The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

But would I need to apply for a change of use from brownfield to agricultural...? Will my intention to create and manage a nature reserve be considered to be "agricultural"? (I don't even have a holding number... it's less than an acre and with no possibility of aquiring more land). And whether a change of use to agricutural might be detrimental in the longer term, seeing as brownfield land is more likely to gain future permission for residential use than agricutural land? Sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees, so need to sort out all the possibilites of any change in direction at this point...

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

Definitely worth a try, because the fee is so much cheaper! Whether they'd believe I was using it to dry grass, though... There is no such grass here which would be of a suitable quality for drying/storing as hay... But I will definitely be hanging up bunches of wildflowers to dry out for the seed and I don't see that would really be so different...
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 29, 2019, 01:45:30 pm
Dookie how much land  is on the site ?
Could you get hold of some hay/straw bales to store inside?
Along with tools you need to maintain the land
Shame you have not got a bit of livestock on site (couple of goats or the like)
I would take dated photos prior to the enforcement notice being issued.
Use at time the enforcement notice could become important depending on LPA  stance

PM has given you the option i suggested  its the cheapest option imo he knows the system and fees
Looks like council have made their minds up and a retrospective application will be turned down imo
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: doganjo on December 29, 2019, 08:36:20 pm

I would take dated photos prior to the enforcement notice being issued.
Use at time the enforcement notice could become important depending on LPA  stance
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/photos/

This is just one site I found by googling old photos - but if you add the name of your nearest village you'll maybe get better ones. They may not be named so you might have to do a bit of investigating -  or find someone who knows the area well and can recognise the old building and terrain
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 30, 2019, 08:10:25 am
Many thanks for this link, doganjo...

The land, which measures 0.9 of an acre, once belonged to the local farmer, who owns vast tracts of land across the whole county, but it was sold off to a local waterworks company in 1919, so that they could dig a deep well to supply fresh water to the area.

The pumping station associated with the well was steam driven with a chimney which would have belched out smoke... (I've dug up quite a bit of crushed up coal which has been scattered around from those old days, plus a lot of antique glass bottles... they seemed very fond of Bovril and Camp coffee... there are some blue medicinal type bottles, too, with "Poison" embossed on the glass).

I've been trying to grow some native shrubs around the perimeter, but the ground is difficult to cultivate, or at least, everywhere you try to dig you come across the rubble and chunks of iron which must have made up the original building. They must have knocked it down and spread it around rather than take it all away. Certainly, the ground slopes away in all directions from the centre, so I'm guessing its all there under the very thin layer of soil.

The foundations of the old building were incovered when I dug trenches for the drains to serve a sewage treatment plant. It was a substantial size... about 4x the size of the building which replaced it when they changed from using coal to electricity. That was in 1947.

I've searched all the local archives for photos, but haven't come across any yet. However, the history of the well and pumping station are documented online, plus I have the original charts for the well, showing the various depths for each section... it is some 300 feet deep and goes right down through hundreds of feet of London clay to the ancient shell sediment of the sea bed. There is a tidal river a few hundred metres away, so I doubt it will ever run dry. I can still pump water from it and it is very clean, but with a high soduim/flouride content which eventually led to the well being decommissioned in 1986. The pump house has been redundant ever since, and has never been used for anything except storage. There are signs that it has been vandalised over the last 30 years and I had to replace the glass and repair the door.

There have been several different owners, who've made applications which on every occasion were turned down. The person before me wanted to use it for equestrian purposes. That was turned down, but he was able to obtain permission for B1 use before selling it on, which is where we are now.

When the enforcement officer visited, she was able to observe that I have all my gardening tools and implements stored in the silo. They took photographs, which they will probably use when it comes to appeal.

I wonder if I would be able to use the land in an agricultural capacity whilst still retaining its status of Previousy Developed Land/brownfield, or whether that would be lost forever if I were to make an application to change the use of the land back to agricultural? This might scupper any long term plans for a live/work art studio... :(  Dx
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 30, 2019, 12:29:00 pm
The land will always be brownfield  look up the definition-previously developed land
You do not have to apply or change anything for agricutral use its not development
 
Does not mater what the enforcement officer saw took photos of, what is more  important is use at time enforcement notice is served. if you try agricutral route.
Shame plot is not larger
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on December 31, 2019, 07:43:48 am
Yes... at just under an acre, there's a limit to what you could do via the agricultural route... and I can't afford to get any more land.
I think that's why the previous owner didn't manage to get permission for equestrian use, because you really don't need to be an expert to know that a piece of land of this size would never support that kind of business.

Being a rural area, too, they are pretty knowledgeable about such things at the planning office. I think you really do need to have a viable business plan (as you did) to show them if you are going down this route... not sure if I could blag it, tbh.

Whilst I could, at a pinch, use the original building as a small art studio, I really do need the silo for storage of tools and equipment in connection with managing the land as a nature reserve... but whether this comes under 'agriculture' or not, and if it would be granted at appeal...  It certainly doesn't look incongrous, so would they need a good reason to make me take it down, or would the article 4 direction be sufficient, I wonder?
Good news is that my sister has offered to pay the fee for the planning application, so at least I know I can get on and make a start.
Dx
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: mart6 on December 31, 2019, 08:19:30 am
sent you a pm
Title: Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
Post by: Dookie on January 01, 2020, 11:33:05 am
Have replied...hopefully! :fc:
Dx