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Author Topic: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.  (Read 5019 times)

pharnorth

  • Joined Nov 2013
  • Cambridgeshire
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #60 on: December 27, 2019, 06:54:20 pm »
I think it is beautiful.  Maybe you could enter the building itself in for the Turner Prize or something?  If there is a suitable award I would happily nominate it. Might slow the council down!
Voss Electric Fence

landroverroy

  • Joined Oct 2010
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #61 on: December 27, 2019, 09:31:54 pm »
As Doganjo said - once the enforcement order is issued (and that could take some time) you will then get a chance to appeal and that all takes months so you could easily string this out for a couple of years. I was issued an enforcement order in 2017 and we appealed and we are still fighting it. As also mentioned, I believe, the planning inspectorate officer is a much more human person than your average local planning officer, and is as much concerned with common sense than by trying to stop your development. I have won one appeal against enforcement and the decision virtually said (but politely) that the local planners were talking rubbish and totally overturned their decision.


That being said - you want more than just a time delay. You want success. :thumbsup:  So having said that you'll have a better chance with the planning inspector (who handles the enforcement appeal) than with your local planning officer,  then you want to give your appeal against enforcement your very best effort. And I'm afraid that "most likely without the benefit of a planning consultant" will most likely not be good enough. You do need one.


There must be a way you can raise some money. :thinking:  Babysitting? Dog walking? (Ok forget selling the body parts - you'll probably need them all. ) Just find something. :fc:  Talking to your generous sister sounds a good option. Get her really involved in your dream.
In the meantime - knowledge is power. Do some research on the internet and see if you can find a similar case that was successful. Martin Goodall's Planning Blog has some useful information. I got some useful info from that. 


Finally - the planning consultant. Get a good one. Look at local planning successes and see who did the applications. In particular look at who has had successful appeals. Talk to a few until you get to speak to someone who thinks you have a chance. Most will give you a free hearing and let you have their opinion. Pointless choosing someone who tells you from the start that you're wasting your time. I've had a few of them, and just moved on till  I found someone who could think outside the box.
I have also had some good and encouraging advice from various forums on facebook such as Property Developers' Secrets and Property Owners' forum. They are well worth joining and explaining as fully as possible your situation. There is some real knowledge and experience there for the asking.
 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2019, 04:36:13 pm by landroverroy »
Rules are made:
  for the guidance of wise men
  and the obedience of fools.

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2019, 10:22:50 am »
I think it is beautiful.  Maybe you could enter the building itself in for the Turner Prize or something?  If there is a suitable award I would happily nominate it. Might slow the council down!
Oh thank you! Yes... it is a bit like a giant art installation, I guess... :)

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2019, 10:42:53 am »
Thank you, Landrover Roy! All much appreciated... :)

A local land owner, in the next field, but one, managed to get planning permission to build a pair of semi detached cottages to replace an old storage shed.

There's no difference between his land and mine; both on greenbelt, and his land is closer to the coastal path than mine... I don't think his old sheds were as well established as my original building.

This is previously developed land which has had a building on it for the last 100 years. The original building being 4 times the size of the one in place now.

I wonder if it might be worthwhile to try and speak the same planning consultant, as they will know all the probems I'm likely to come up against...?

I'm very pleased to say that Mr. Pilman (on the other place) has been in touch... Hopefully he may have some good advice for me along the way!

I hope that you will win with your appeal....

I'm so grateful to you all... Good Luck, everyone, and a very Happy New Year!  Dx

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2019, 12:42:37 pm »
Great P has been in touch
Very knowledgeable .
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed
The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

« Last Edit: January 07, 2020, 03:01:39 pm by mart6 »

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #65 on: December 29, 2019, 11:46:27 am »
Great Pileman has been in touch
Very knowledgeable . Yes!
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed.

But you had a bona fide reason to go down the agricultural route... I could see that those things were essential to running your business...Whereas i've already told the enforcement officer of my plans for an art studio and nature reserve

The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

But would I need to apply for a change of use from brownfield to agricultural...? Will my intention to create and manage a nature reserve be considered to be "agricultural"? (I don't even have a holding number... it's less than an acre and with no possibility of aquiring more land). And whether a change of use to agricutural might be detrimental in the longer term, seeing as brownfield land is more likely to gain future permission for residential use than agricutural land? Sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees, so need to sort out all the possibilites of any change in direction at this point...

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

Definitely worth a try, because the fee is so much cheaper! Whether they'd believe I was using it to dry grass, though... There is no such grass here which would be of a suitable quality for drying/storing as hay... But I will definitely be hanging up bunches of wildflowers to dry out for the seed and I don't see that would really be so different...

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #66 on: December 29, 2019, 11:49:31 am »
Not quite sure what I've done there... will try and sort it out,,, :-\ :dunce:

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #67 on: December 29, 2019, 12:25:19 pm »
I've used the planning portal here in Scotland - the building standards one.  I built a conservatory onto my old house but didn't get a building warrant at the time, so I've had to apply retrospectively because the buyers lawyer wanted proof it had been built properly.  It's not the easiest of sites to navigate but certainly easier than applying in writing.  And it goes ditrect to the relevant council.

You can attach any documents required - in various formats (pdf, jpg etc)

But the fee is dependant on the 'value of works' i.e. cost - of the work done - so make sure you don't add in your own work, just add up the cost of materials, plus any money paid to anyone who helped you, unless it was cash in which case forget that.  I'm not convinced your fee will be as low as £96 but I don't know how much the silo cost you.

If the use is agricultural such as drying hay for feed, or even drying wild flowers for a hobby/small business in embryo then make it an agricultural application.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #68 on: December 29, 2019, 12:56:12 pm »
Something wrong with the colourising.  Here it is with that removed.

Great Pileman has been in touch
Very knowledgeable . Yes!
Just seen his reply was agricultural route  once it has permission changes can come later
If you read my thread i had part of old stable block had cooker , fridge freezer ,sofa, kitchen cupboards,sink,central heating council wanted them removing and they were considered ancillary to agricultural use whole council enforcement was quashed.

But you had a bona fide reason to go down the agricultural route... I could see that those things were essential to running your business...Whereas i've already told the enforcement officer of my plans for an art studio and nature reserve

The answer to your last post is  agricultural use is not  development  YOU CAN USE THE LAND FOR AGRICULTURAL USE you dont need any permission and if they disagree they have lost before they start.

But would I need to apply for a change of use from brownfield to agricultural...? Will my intention to create and manage a nature reserve be considered to be "agricultural"? (I don't even have a holding number... it's less than an acre and with no possibility of aquiring more land). And whether a change of use to agricutural might be detrimental in the longer term, seeing as brownfield land is more likely to gain future permission for residential use than agricutural land? Sometimes I can't see the wood for the trees, so need to sort out all the possibilites of any change in direction at this point...

If this application is refused, as as been suggested to the OP when she was told to make a retrospective planning application, then the cost is minimal since any parcel of land can be used for agriculture without that being classed as "development"
Town and Country Planning Act 1990 Section 55 (2)(e)
(2)The following operations or uses of land shall not be taken for the purposes of this Act to involve development of the land—
"(e) the use of any land for the purposes of agriculture or forestry (including afforestation) and the use for any of those purposes of any building occupied together with land so used;"

To save costs use the Planning Portal web-site and complete an on-line application form.
Rather than providing plans use the photographs of the agricultural silo to show what requires planning permission and pay the £96 fee using a credit or debit card.

Definitely worth a try, because the fee is so much cheaper! Whether they'd believe I was using it to dry grass, though... There is no such grass here which would be of a suitable quality for drying/storing as hay... But I will definitely be hanging up bunches of wildflowers to dry out for the seed and I don't see that would really be so different...
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #69 on: December 29, 2019, 01:45:30 pm »
Dookie how much land  is on the site ?
Could you get hold of some hay/straw bales to store inside?
Along with tools you need to maintain the land
Shame you have not got a bit of livestock on site (couple of goats or the like)
I would take dated photos prior to the enforcement notice being issued.
Use at time the enforcement notice could become important depending on LPA  stance

PM has given you the option i suggested  its the cheapest option imo he knows the system and fees
Looks like council have made their minds up and a retrospective application will be turned down imo
« Last Edit: December 29, 2019, 02:09:53 pm by mart6 »

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #70 on: December 29, 2019, 08:36:20 pm »

I would take dated photos prior to the enforcement notice being issued.
Use at time the enforcement notice could become important depending on LPA  stance
https://historicengland.org.uk/images-books/photos/

This is just one site I found by googling old photos - but if you add the name of your nearest village you'll maybe get better ones. They may not be named so you might have to do a bit of investigating -  or find someone who knows the area well and can recognise the old building and terrain
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2019, 08:10:25 am »
Many thanks for this link, doganjo...

The land, which measures 0.9 of an acre, once belonged to the local farmer, who owns vast tracts of land across the whole county, but it was sold off to a local waterworks company in 1919, so that they could dig a deep well to supply fresh water to the area.

The pumping station associated with the well was steam driven with a chimney which would have belched out smoke... (I've dug up quite a bit of crushed up coal which has been scattered around from those old days, plus a lot of antique glass bottles... they seemed very fond of Bovril and Camp coffee... there are some blue medicinal type bottles, too, with "Poison" embossed on the glass).

I've been trying to grow some native shrubs around the perimeter, but the ground is difficult to cultivate, or at least, everywhere you try to dig you come across the rubble and chunks of iron which must have made up the original building. They must have knocked it down and spread it around rather than take it all away. Certainly, the ground slopes away in all directions from the centre, so I'm guessing its all there under the very thin layer of soil.

The foundations of the old building were incovered when I dug trenches for the drains to serve a sewage treatment plant. It was a substantial size... about 4x the size of the building which replaced it when they changed from using coal to electricity. That was in 1947.

I've searched all the local archives for photos, but haven't come across any yet. However, the history of the well and pumping station are documented online, plus I have the original charts for the well, showing the various depths for each section... it is some 300 feet deep and goes right down through hundreds of feet of London clay to the ancient shell sediment of the sea bed. There is a tidal river a few hundred metres away, so I doubt it will ever run dry. I can still pump water from it and it is very clean, but with a high soduim/flouride content which eventually led to the well being decommissioned in 1986. The pump house has been redundant ever since, and has never been used for anything except storage. There are signs that it has been vandalised over the last 30 years and I had to replace the glass and repair the door.

There have been several different owners, who've made applications which on every occasion were turned down. The person before me wanted to use it for equestrian purposes. That was turned down, but he was able to obtain permission for B1 use before selling it on, which is where we are now.

When the enforcement officer visited, she was able to observe that I have all my gardening tools and implements stored in the silo. They took photographs, which they will probably use when it comes to appeal.

I wonder if I would be able to use the land in an agricultural capacity whilst still retaining its status of Previousy Developed Land/brownfield, or whether that would be lost forever if I were to make an application to change the use of the land back to agricultural? This might scupper any long term plans for a live/work art studio... :(  Dx
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 08:19:01 am by Dookie »

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2019, 12:29:00 pm »
The land will always be brownfield  look up the definition-previously developed land
You do not have to apply or change anything for agricutral use its not development
 
Does not mater what the enforcement officer saw took photos of, what is more  important is use at time enforcement notice is served. if you try agricutral route.
Shame plot is not larger
« Last Edit: December 30, 2019, 12:33:50 pm by mart6 »

Dookie

  • Joined Dec 2018
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #73 on: December 31, 2019, 07:43:48 am »
Yes... at just under an acre, there's a limit to what you could do via the agricultural route... and I can't afford to get any more land.
I think that's why the previous owner didn't manage to get permission for equestrian use, because you really don't need to be an expert to know that a piece of land of this size would never support that kind of business.

Being a rural area, too, they are pretty knowledgeable about such things at the planning office. I think you really do need to have a viable business plan (as you did) to show them if you are going down this route... not sure if I could blag it, tbh.

Whilst I could, at a pinch, use the original building as a small art studio, I really do need the silo for storage of tools and equipment in connection with managing the land as a nature reserve... but whether this comes under 'agriculture' or not, and if it would be granted at appeal...  It certainly doesn't look incongrous, so would they need a good reason to make me take it down, or would the article 4 direction be sufficient, I wonder?
Good news is that my sister has offered to pay the fee for the planning application, so at least I know I can get on and make a start.
Dx

mart6

  • Joined Sep 2014
  • Notts / Yorkshire border
Re: Help/advice needed please re: retrospective planning application.
« Reply #74 on: December 31, 2019, 08:19:30 am »
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