[Fleecewife]

Dog training.  Do you follow any particular training regime?  Ultra strict?  Gentle and loving?  Treats as rewards or verbal praise?
Graeme Hall in his 'Dogs Behaving Badly' programme goes for endless repetition and a confident but gentle way.  Barbara Woodhouse was rather loud and gave military orders to both dog and owner.  Both concentrate on the owners as well as the dogs.  My impression is that Barbara Woodhouse ruled by fear and Graeme Hall teaches by understanding and love.  Am I right?  What do you do?

[Blondie]

I wouldn’t say a prescribe to any one school of thought but we have gone for repetition and praise with our retired greyhound. When I watch Graeme Hall, I do think instinctive we followed a very similar method to what he used.

We initially started with training treats and were pretty militant in using the same commands at the same time and over the top praise. We also had a clicker but didn’t really use that as much. We is really quite well behaved now with only lack of a “drop it” command annoying.

We do obviously use a harsh no, but only use that sparingly so if she is told off now, she knows she has done wrong!

[SallyintNorth]

Having had collies for the last 14 years, who are super-sensitive and can easily be put off work by harsh treatment (which to a collie can be nothing more than a raised or gruff voice), and whose brains work super-fast, I have almost completely changed my approach to dog training.

I haven't seen Graham Hall so can't comment on his methods, but I would absolutely never return to the very authoritarian style of training that was prevalent in my youth, and of which Barbara Woodhouse was an eminent proponent. 

I will always be grateful to Derek Scrimgeour, whose "put a word on it" approach works so brilliantly with collies.  Get them doing the behaviour you want, by whatever (kind) means necessary, and then while they are doing it, tell them what that is called, and in a "good dog" sort of a voice.  Collies make associations super-quickly, but all dogs do it, so it works for all, I think.  All other training methods, apart from clicker-training, it is way too easy to reinforce the wrong behaviour, to get unintended consequences, because the gap between the word and the deed, and / or between the deed and the reward, are often too long and the dog makes the wrong association.  This way, the praise (tone of voice), the command (you say the word while they are doing the action) and the deed are all completely simultaneous.

You do this a few times, tell them what it's called while they are doing it, (meanwhile you are of course working out the best ways to get them doing it anyway without a command ), and then you start to ask for it (or as Derek prefers to put it, invite them to do it, saying the word in an inviting tone of voice)... initially of course when they are about to do it anyway, so that they take the invitation , and then as they actually do it you say the word again in a praising tone of voice.

And the other element that has changed since Barbara Woodhouse days is to completely ignore any behaviours you don't want.  Dogs love attention, so ignoring them is a powerful disincentive!

When I look back at some of the training I did when I was younger, I cringe.  Telling a dog off after the event nearly always looks completely random to a dog, even if the naughty thing is in front of them / you are waving it in front of their face.  If there is an afterlife, I am going to spend quite a bit of my time up there finding the dogs I trained before 2006 and apologising...

[doganjo]

Couldn't have put that better, Sally.  Exactly how I work with my Brittanys - in a lot of ways they are very similar to collies, very sensitive, and often have cloth ears, but very loving.
I often feel guilty at the way i used to yank my poor cockers and springers - there was no need but that was how we were taught.  After my husband died and we had brittanys, and I knew better, I started dog classes and all our students were taught to look for a dog doing something you wanted and give it a name and reinforce it with praise, in the stubborn breeds we used treats, but ofen praise was all that was needed.
For example most dogs will sit or lie down when they are a little tired so after the social exercise of walking round the room a few times I would tell them all to stop, watch our dogs, and when one of them sat down we all said sit - it was surprising how many of the others would sit too.
I must admit I'm not averse to the occasional reprimand though - a firm 'no' is usually all that is required for any behaviour that i dont want

[SallyintNorth]

Aww, thanks Annie 

Sometimes even a brilliant collie needs to know that something's wrong too, but again, it's best to catch them before they actually do it, while they are thinking about doing it.  So, for instance, to stop the dog coming in at the sheep when you didn't ask them to, set them up so you know they will do it, then, just before they turn in, tell the ground off where you don't want them, for instance by pointing a stick at it and growling at it.  Works amazingly well.

I have seen Derek use a firmer correction.  He did it with my dog Skip (who Derek liked very much, saying he was a very clever dog.  Not surprised, I am sure he was a descendant of Derek's amazing Laddie; they looked very similar and had many similar moves.)   Anyway, Skip was 2 when I got him and had developed some bad habits as well as a lot of good.  Derek helped me to get on top of a lot of them, then said that Skip did need to be perfectly sure who was boss, so that when I did the "growl at the ground where I didn't want him" thing, he took notice.  It wasn't coming, so Derek, with my permission, stepped in and reinforced what I was doing, sharply, once.  Never needed any more help

[SallyintNorth]

And just to demonstrate how easy it is for even experienced trainers to end up reinforcing the wrong thing, here is a post I recently made on a friend's thread on FB.  She has recently acquired a "Sprollie" (springer x collie) and writes very humorously about how the training is going.  This time she was lamenting that retrieving wasn't coming.

I was about to write about how Dot, even with her brain the size of a planet, has failed to work out, in all her 12 years, that she has to bring me the toy to get me to throw it for her again.

But, as I was mulling over how to write it entertainingly,  I realised that what in fact happens is she does her super cute irresistible stare intently at the toy with her ears on top of her head, I fail to resist, get up and pick up the toy and throw it for her.

So actually, it is *me* who has taken 12 years to realise that in fact, the dog has trained *me* to retrieve...

[Fleecewife]

These new/old dogs, Mia and Sophie, are the 10th and 11th we have had.  Wolfhounds, wolfhound crossed with LGDs, German Shepherd, Bearded Collie, mongrel, Patterdale x Cairn and JR x Border Terrier, and now Staffie x Lab and Staffie x Lab X Pointer.  All so very different even within a breed.


The first dog was a Wolfie.  She thought she was human, and had the same right to self determination as the rest of the pack ie us.  We took her to dog training classes a la Woodhouse.  She produced a giant puddle on the floor to show her opinion of that and we were banned from the classes. We had to agree with her choice. I think that was the core of our 'training' with Brora - we mainly agreed with what she did but there were enough of us to make sure she complied if she herself felt she didn't want to.  She was supremely confident and the only contretemps I had was a small battle of who was higher in the pack order, her or me.  I won by being very firm.


The next two were a German Shepherd Ayla and a rescue puppy Cally.  They were extremely easy to train - it just happened really.  I think the mongrel was so keen to please and so bright she simply made sure her larger sister did the same things.


Then came the two Livestock Guardian dogs, Conna and Rowan (at the same time as the previous two).  With LGDs, their behaviour with the flock is innate, and their domestic behaviour just automatically complied with the other two. There was a problem with fighting caused by dominance challenges, which I eventually discovered could be best sorted by a bucket of water over the guilty party.  It sounds drastic, but when you have 6 dogs, 3 of them giant, one large and two medium, and a small child together, with only one human, then dealing with the problem instantly is essential, but I must say I hated doing it.  We did find other methods to prevent the fights, including muzzling the guilty party, but she hated the muzzle poor thing.


Another Wolfhound, Megan, and the Bearded Collie Molly,  came to us preformed and trained as they belonged to one of our sons.  It was just a case of getting them safe with the livestock and that was  firm 'no's', brief tugs on their leads, and unstinting praise for good behaviour.  The Bearded Collie was a total feartie though so hens and lambs were terrifying for her.


Lastly were the two terrier crosses, the first terriers we had had, and totally different in every way to all our previous dogs.  Lucy who came first had been terrorised by a nasty small boy as a new puppy in her birth home.  Her main aim in life was to run away and we found that very difficult to deal with. A visiting shepherd showed us the trick of ignoring any imperfect behaviour by folding our arms and turning our backs on Lucy and within hours she just wanted to please us.  Great advice and quite a changing point for us.
When Rip the JR arrived he seemed to know just what to do from birth.  He was the bravest and most diligent little dog we have ever had 


So now we have Sophie and her mum Mia, Staffie crosses and we have no prior knowledge of their breeds.
They have spent a year in the rescue home where they had very little training and minimal socialising.  They have clearly been well trained before by their previous owner so we are currently helping them to remember life in a domestic home.
They are both bright but both have their breed related innate behaviours which we have to learn.  We could never use the Woodhouse method even if we wanted to, as they are a bit nervous.  We don't raise our voices and we keep calm at all times.  There have been some firm 'no's' and 'get down's ' (we refuse to share an armchair with stinky dogs  ) but otherwise we use the quiet repetition and praise method, reinforced with a small tug on the lead.  In the rescue place they used treats for everything but so far we have managed to avoid that route - it just doesn't sit well with us.
We are getting there with the livestock although both dogs are a bit too interested in the hens still.  These dogs are much bigger than the terriers were, and so far no hen has dared to deliver the peck on the nose which would sort the problem I think.  Our method with the livestock is to walk the dogs amongst them regularly on the lead, with a slight tug and a 'no' if they pay attention to them.


Our basic philosophy is to get our dogs to the point where they know what is expected of them, and they want to comply.  That seems to be the loving way, and who would keep a dog if they don't love it?


I asked the question because we have no formal dog training knowledge and we want to get it right.  With our previous dogs training has been pretty much hit or miss.  From all your replies so far    it sounds as if we are on the right track this time. We have had the dogs for 4 days now and already they are settled and mostly calm, but they still show a degree of separation anxiety although it is improving beautifully. We have never left them alone entirely but we will not start that step for a week or so.

[SallyintNorth]

I had one rescue who had extreme separation anxiety.  He had almost no other issues, and had been a stray, so we concluded that one day his owner just never came home, and the dog ended up trying to make a living on the streets.  There was no sign that he had ever been mistreated in any way at all - and also, he knew no commands at all when we first got him!  lol.  But he loved to have no problems in his life, so learned really quickly :hugdog:

Anyway, back to the separation anxiety.  Even though he would be with the incumbent dog, who presumably reassured him that we would come back, we always do, he couldn't cope and would be destructive.  If you left him enough newspaper he would shred that into tiny, tiny pieces, and only start on other things when no piece could be shredded further...

But we didn't like to think of this lovely, happy dog being so upset, so we wanted to address the anxiety.

I had John Cree's book "Your Problem Dog" and looked into that for help.  And so we started to use a "Toy Box".  At first, when we were still there with him, so that Horace learned to love his Toy Box and enjoy it, and be excited when he got it.  Then, once he was at that stage, we would pop out while he was busy with it, at first just for a few seconds, so you would be back before he got bored with the Toy Box, and then longer and longer, until eventually you would not be there when he looked around.

It worked brilliantly.  If we were going out (and sometimes when we weren't), we would make up Toy Boxes for them (of course they had to have one each, otherwise Veni, who was boss, would have taken over the Toy Box and Horace would have noticed we'd gone). 

The Toy Box was a plastic crate, filled with interesting things - toys, tiny treats, the odd twig - hidden in amongst bits of screwed up newspaper and such like.  At least two things in each box high value prizes : a bit of pigs' ear maybe, a fave toy that they hadn't seen for a while.  So it would take them a good few minutes to go through the boxes and find the things, eat the snacks, chew the twigs up, etc.  While they were busy and excitedly doing that, you would slip out.  The key thing was that they didn't notice you go, so you avoided the most anxiety-inducing moment.  By the time they were done with all the things, you would initially either be back or very nearly, so they built up an experience base of it wasn't a big deal, you would be back soon.

Over time, we didn't need to do Toy Boxes - although would still do them sometimes as the dogs loved them so much!  lol

[arobwk]

Very amateur dog trainer here, but I would like to add some comments:

As mentioned, kind regime is obviously best, BUT having one or two sharp rebukes in the repertoire for very bad behaviour is, I would say, essential if the bad behaviour could have “really bad” consequences.  (All dogs are different and are variously distracted/excited in certain circumstances and I believe a couple of “I really mean this – listen to me now” type commands/sounds are worth having.)

Mine are:

“No!” (like so many of us) which has proved good for so many different circumstances:  I’m not really sure how the dogs have worked out that “No!” can mean “don’t you dare” or “stop doing what you are doing” and even “oi! - pay attention”, but I guess it’s to do with intonation.
My other rebuke/way of getting them to “listen” (when they are obviously ignoring me) is to shout their name gruffly and I’m sure it’s a matter of volume and the note of irritation that they have come to recognise.  This normally works even with stubborn (“I hear you, but I’m not ready yet”) madam Papillon  – the gruff name call normally gets her to click back (reluctantly) into submissive mode.

As regards training with treats:  starting out, I decided treats should be used as sparingly as possible.  When I got the Boy (who liked to wander off all over my fields and beyond) I started using treats as an almost constant reward.  The difference was, and still is, amazing – he doesn’t get a treat every time now, but I can now be confident that he will run back to me, from where-ever he has roamed (enticed by animal scent trails), for either his treat (he 1st looks at my hands) or a bit of play-time.

Finally:  while I never admonish bad behaviour/”accidents” after the incident has passed for fear of confusing the dogs, I don’t worry too much about delayed rewards.  They seem quite prepared to wait for me to fumble with treat bag or go find a box/bag of goodies as they know only too well what my movements mean.

Finally, finally: mine are not the best/thoroughly trained dogs in the world.  (I quite like a little bit of doggy independence and mine are small, really friendly and not about to bite or dangerously ravage anyone.)  Never the less, they will respond just as readily to head/eye movements or arm/hand movements as to verbal commands:  why wouldn’t they since they are my constant companions ?!!

[harmony]

I would never advocate "harsh" or "cruel" treatment to train or work any animal and equally I don't think "kind" is best either. Of course there are variations and extremes of all those. I think the key is everyone knowing and understanding their place in the pecking order. And as pack leader you should be firm, fair and not break an animals trust in you as pack leader.


It is us humans who introduce the fuzzy lines. In a dog pack everyone is treated the same and the treatment is consistent. They don't make any judgements on the personalities.


I know people who run their dogs at trials that never fuss their animals. They aren't hard with their dogs either. As soon as they let a dog out it looks at them immediately for instruction. They are happy dogs, they know their place and they want to please. I know for us we want added interaction and I'm ok with that.


Whatever the lesson we should be clear in our instruction. If the animal gets it wrong it was probably our fault.


So many times people say they don't reprimand bad behaviour after it has happened because it confuses the dog. Whereas I think the opposite of that. For example, your dog runs off and won't come back immediately you call it. When it does you don't want to punish it because you don't want it to think you punished it for returning.  So, it learns that it can come back when it wants and then it adds chasing sheep into the equation and now it has done something really bad and do you still not reprimand because it still came back? Obviously you have to teach recall first but if a dog that has learnt recall decides to ignore it until it is ready to return I would reprimand that behaviour. I would use my voice and my stance, I would put it on the lead and I would take it home and ignore it during that process. I don't have to be harsh. The punishment is that the dog no longer feels welcome in the pack because it's behaviour was unacceptable and being part of the pack is really important to a pack animal.


If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.


When the dog is young I praise lots and how you use your voice is important not what you say. You can say "you are a very bad dog" in such a way the dog thinks it is in fact a "very good dog" or indeed vice versa.

[SallyintNorth]

So many times people say they don't reprimand bad behaviour after it has happened because it confuses the dog. Whereas I think the opposite of that. For example, your dog runs off and won't come back immediately you call it. When it does you don't want to punish it because you don't want it to think you punished it for returning.  So, it learns that it can come back when it wants and then it adds chasing sheep into the equation and now it has done something really bad and do you still not reprimand because it still came back? Obviously you have to teach recall first but if a dog that has learnt recall decides to ignore it until it is ready to return I would reprimand that behaviour. I would use my voice and my stance, I would put it on the lead and I would take it home and ignore it during that process. I don't have to be harsh. The punishment is that the dog no longer feels welcome in the pack because it's behaviour was unacceptable and being part of the pack is really important to a pack animal.


If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

That's how I used to do it.  And I now believe that all I taught those dogs was that I would sometimes randomly be cross. 

[SallyintNorth]

For me, the 100% recall is an absolute must.  And in my experience, this is best achieved by the following maxim, "A dog that comes is a good dog."  No exceptions, not any.

Doesn't matter what it was doing the second before it came, it's a good dog for coming. 

And the only time I would ever, ever reprimand if they are not coming, is if I can literally hand-on-collar get-hold-of-them-in-the-act.  Otherwise, suck it up.  In the long run, it's better all round.

Once the recall is 100%, and coming is always nice, and it always gets praise and a fuss, then you can be more "I really mean it" about calling them if they don't run to you instantly.  But not until they come  e v e r y   s i n g l e    t i m e

[SallyintNorth]

If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

Modern thinking is that this will lead to more cushion-ripping, not less.

Dog's perspective : Ooo, goody, hooman home. Woof! Wag!  Uh-oooh.  Hooman cross.  Cushion bad!  Cushion in face bad!  Hoooman cross with cushion and Dog! 

Next time dog at home alone and gets stressed...  Awwww, where hooman?  Hooooooommmmmaaaannnn!!  No hooman     What if hooman never come back?  Hooman!  Hooman!  HOOMAN!  Dog scared now, Dog frighted.   Dog bitey foot, dog bitey tail, dog bitey bad things... Cushion bad!  Dog bitey cushion! 

[Fleecewife]

If I came home and found the my cushions ripped up and the dog is asleep I would still reprimand even though I didn't catch them in the act. I'd show them the cushion, speak firmly then ignore.

Modern thinking is that this will lead to more cushion-ripping, not less.

Dog's perspective : Ooo, goody, hooman home. Woof! Wag!  Uh-oooh.  Hooman cross.  Cushion bad!  Cushion in face bad!  Hoooman cross with cushion and Dog! 

Next time dog at home alone and gets stressed...  Awwww, where hooman?  Hooooooommmmmaaaannnn!!  No hooman     What if hooman never come back?  Hooman!  Hooman!  HOOMAN!  Dog scared now, Dog frighted.   Dog bitey foot, dog bitey tail, dog bitey bad things... Cushion bad!  Dog bitey cushion!

My dogs must have gone to a better school than yours Sally - their grammar, pronunciation and enunciation are all perfect 

[Fleecewife]

We are gradually getting towards body language in this discussion.  I think our new dogs are still learning our body language and we are learning theirs.  We all take so many cues from body language without really knowing that we do it.  Fine when body language and words match up, totally confusing for all when they don't.


It's not just human body language that animals learn, but that of all other animals they are in contact with - sheep, birds, hens, cattle, other dogs, cats, etc.  I swear our koi in the pond recognise us by our body language as well as other characteristics, so they expect food if they know it's us waving a pot of pellets around, or danger if they don't recognise the signs.


On from that, we have always used a degree of hand signals and facial expressions as well as body movements when communicating with our dogs, as I think many others do.  This has meant that when Lucy the Patterdale X Cairn went deaf and a bit blind, she could still follow our comms by watching us.  We had to attract her attention with a loud handclap sometimes, and overexaggerate the movements.


I find the whole study of non-verbal communication, especially between species, to be fascinating.