[Buttermilk]

My breed was a rare breed in its native country.  Imported into this country and the population is booming here and we have protected a rare breed.  They do have their problems but then every breed has got some downside to it especially removed from its native environment.  Size - too big/small, Feed - too rich/poor, Climate - too wet/dry/windy/hot,  Feet - a whole can of worms...

[Marches Farmer]

What's generally kept very quiet is the survival rate, not only between scanning and lambing but scanning and weaning, as well as the ewe losses.  Every farm is different and every lambing is different but judging by the regular pile of corpses awaiting collection at one local farm that runs Charollais and Texel rams with mules it seems to be far, far higher than ours (so far anyway).

[Me]

I don't really follow you MF. The survival rate of the mules? BFL are a sheep particularly known for sudden death without obvious cause so a negative for the British... are you blaming the import ram for lamb losses but not blaming the British ewe? Don't understand. Elaborate.

 

[beagh-suffolks]

all i can say is as a suffolk breeder myself, not all of use breed for big heads and legs and lazy lambs!

[Me]

Fair enough, is that one in your avatar photo typical for what you are breeding for regarding head and lower leg size?

[Marches Farmer]

I don't really follow you MF. The survival rate of the mules? BFL are a sheep particularly known for sudden death without obvious cause so a negative for the British... are you blaming the import ram for lamb losses but not blaming the British ewe? Don't understand. Elaborate.

Not laying the blame at any particular breed, just observing that some big commercial farms appear to have a lot of deaths around lambing time, which must have a considerable impact on the average cost per finished lamb but little attention seems to be paid to survivability. In this area the Charollais has been less and less popular as a sire as the lamb survival rate is poor compared to a non-show type Suffolk and the Texel is declining in popularity due to lambing difficulties because of the big head.  Hampshire Downs seems to be on the up, though, and a there's a resurgence of interest in the Border Leicester.

[beagh-suffolks]

Fair enough, is that one in your avatar photo typical for what you are breeding for regarding head and lower leg size?

hes a new stock ram, if i bred something like him i think i would be on to something..my ewes wouldn't be anywhere near are thick as him..he wouldn't even be considered thick compared to a lot rams out there...im actually doing my research paper on ebvs verse breeding for appearance 

[Me]

Ah I see.

I'd say that this lack of attention to survivability and other traits is the scourge of all breeds in the UK that get popular, show/pedigree "breed and feed" types do tend to ruin them.

The ram lamb in my photo was a twin, born without any interventions and grass only reared (compare his head and lower leg size to the high value cuts). I sold him as a commercial crossing ram for Welsh ewes. I had one lamb that needed suckling that year - I could have sold him for £££s he was chopped and will sire no lambs. 

[Womble]

Well why not?  We're smallholders here aren't we?  That means we have the luxury of making decisions not based purely on commercial concerns.

For some, that will be to support a British rare breed (tried that - didn't end well for us though). For others, it will be keeping whatever breed we like the look of and suits our circumstances.

IMHO unless you're going to keep a rare breed, what difference does it make what country your sheep come from?

[shotblastuk]

Well why not?  We're smallholders here aren't we?  That means we have the luxury of making decisions not based purely on commercial concerns.

For some, that will be to support a British rare breed (tried that - didn't end well for us though). For others, it will be keeping whatever breed we like the look of and suits our circumstances.

IMHO unless you're going to keep a rare breed, what difference does it make what country your sheep come from?

I take your point on board Womble. I wasn't particularly aiming this at British 'rare' breeds but British breeds in general to be used in breeding programmes.
As I said earlier in order to promote our product (British meat) I feel we should be using British stock imho.
If the commercial market require a fast/forced grown, tasteless product so be it but in time I feel this will turn round and bite them on the backside. Perhaps this is happening now with the price of lamb this year.

[SallyintNorth]

The price of lamb is a reflection of the exchange rate.  The pound is strong against the euro at the moment.  Most of the year-on-year fall in lamb prices disappears if you measure it in euros

We sell Texel cross fat lambs, because that's what the market wants to buy and we can grow good ones on our land.  Personally I find 4 month Texel lacking in flavour, though very lean and tender.  Charollais, however, has a sweet succulence that is delicious. 

We mostly sell the white lambs for whatever the market is paying that year, and grow and eat primitives and other natives ourselves. 

[Me]

 As I said earlier in order to promote our product (British meat) I feel we should be using British stock imho. [/quote]

[/quote] If the commercial market require a fast/forced grown, tasteless product so be it but in time I feel this will turn round and bite them on the backside. Perhaps this is happening now with the price of lamb this year.
[/quote]

I think the first point you make here is a good one potentially when targeting a British consumer, many British lamb consumers are extremely cost concious or put religious sensibilities above the breed of sheep they are eating though. Also with the very poor labelling of our food in general (its hard to pick out COO or indeed species in some cases!) it may prove a hard sell so - it is a good idea but with limited potential at the moment I fear.

I feel you have missed the mark somewhat in the second point you make, the commercial market don't require fast or forced growth at all, they don't care how much you spent getting the animal to market or how you did it. If you did it off grass quickly or on concentrates slowly it does not matter to them how much money you are losing! The basic fact is the price of lamb is extremely volatile year on year and always has been, for British breeds to have commercial futures they have to produce lamb (in whatever system) for less £ than the buyers want to pay for that lamb. Whether that is in spec or out of spec, grass/concentrates whatever - it just has to leave a margin. In my little effort I have found a breed of British ewe very good (Lleyn) and various large British and continental breeds not so good and for this reason I imported my little pink alien pigs in wigs. Our system is all about lots of low cost, small-medium lambs that survive and grow regardless on grass/reeds with as little help and as few stores as possible.     

[Marches Farmer]

Charollais has an injection of Merino somewhere along the line, I believe. Merino was the breed John Ellman used around 1780 to improe the fleece of his local Southdown breed but it couldn't cope with the UK climate and was shipped off to Australia.  I think for the Charollais the King of Spain gave a flock to the King of France, who built a model farm to house them and they were subsequently crossed onto native Frenchbreeds to improve their fleece as well. 

Southdown has, according to one RBST guru, the sweetest flavour apart from Portland.  Ours are grass fed only and ready for slaughter at around November at 8 to 9 months.  The cross breeds are sold as stores at market - we did have one slaughtered once but it wasn't nearly as good. 

[Hellybee]

There's charmoise in them there charollais 


I just think you run what you like, but it has to suit your terrain and climate.  We suit the lleyn and they suit us.

[Me]

There's charmoise in them there charollais 

That'd be the bit of them thats any good