The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: shotblastuk on October 24, 2015, 03:55:42 pm
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For the life of me I can't understand why we have over 60 breeds of sheep in this country (some declining rapidly) and people still want to stock sheep breeds from further a field. Can anybody please enlighten me as to the benefits excluding the 'novelty factor' ?? :huff:
My pennies worth would be;
If we are going to promote British meat/agriculture surely we have to use British breeds.
All opinions welcome !!
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We have breeds developed over many centuries to suit every type of land, grazing, shelter and weather that the British Isles can throw at them, from the good grazing and mild Winters of the SW to the windswept seaweed eaters of the northern islands. Breeds go in popularity cycles and at the moment it's big-framed Continentals that finish quickly provided you throw enough feed at them for the big commercial farms, attracting the big money and big headlines. Because they've been bred for many generations for big frames and fast finishing they lose out on other traits. I've only recently found out about Texel Throat, for example, although it's common knowledge among farm animal vets - not something the breed society shouts about.
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Foreign sheep, coming over here eating our grass....
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I suppose, because the British farmer has so royally ruined British breeds. For generations a good shepherd has been the one that can hide/compensate/correct best for his animals failings rather than a shepherd who remembers the failing and breeds to remove it.
See the Suffolk sheep. With its giant head, huge lower legs and shoulders and total will to lie on the floor at birth. A massive animal which wants to finish at 55kg - expensively. This is why I imported Charmoise and explains why they are becoming popular (I wont bore you, but they are the anti-suffolk)
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Simple - money and EU farming policies....
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Foreign sheep, coming over here eating our grass....
I'm not suggesting a racist slant here!!! :o
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For me the only non British breeds I would buy are the milking breeds, such as the awassi, Assaf, friesland and lacaune. The dorpors, as on a previous thread, fascinated me but i would never buy them as they belong to the middle eastern countries, as they were bred for the middle east. I suppose its the exotic attraction, the money, or maybe I should have said money first ;D and the other qualities they can bring to sheep keepers. It could also be to conserve the breeds, that is why some people export them, the rbst have done that with breeds of pigs.
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Why do you want a milk sheep wbf - thought you had Lleyns?
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I'm keeping the lleyns for meat and showing, but would like a couple of milking sheep, hopefully in time to build up a small milking flock aside the lleyns. I want to experiment making products with my own sheeps milk and hopefully in a few years set up another range of products alongside the buffalo milk products, but in a few years, in the meantime its practise makes perfect :)
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Oooooo very good
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I'm enjoying my newly established Coloured Ryelands flock and yes part of the which breed decision was to be a native breed. But 'we have to'. No thanks 'we' don't have to anything, it is all about choice and anyway most of our native breeds have crossed with main land European breeds and some time in their dark history. As long as we keep enough, and strong enough blood lines each to their own.
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I look at this a little bit differently----i'm not thinking '' I will get that breed because it's better/different'' rather I am asking ''where can I find this trait to improve what I already have in my sheep''
So for wool shedding I went to the Wiltshire horn because it has the best shedding ability I have found
For a hair coat and parasite resistance you look to the pure hair sheep breeds (BBB /Damara/Katahadin )
For growth you go to the Texel/Charolais
For milk the Lacuane
For easy of lambing and thrift one of the hill breeds
Then you have to find the animals within these breeds that have the traits that you want because there is plenty of variation out there----for example I have maternal wool shedding maternal rams whose offspring grow faster than some Texel rams (done the comparisons on 200 ewe flocks)
all the above is a convoluted way of saying horses for courses ;)
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I look at this a little bit differently----i'm not thinking '' I will get that breed because it's better/different'' rather I am asking ''where can I find this trait to improve what I already have in my sheep''
within these breeds that have the traits that you want because there is plenty of variation out there----for example I have maternal wool shedding maternal rams whose offspring grow faster than some Texel rams (done the comparisons on 200 ewe flocks)
Isn't this how the stratification system works, though? Not with all the traits you mention but milky hill ewe with good mothering ability crossed with a milky twin-producing BFL to give a long carcase and finished with, say, a Down breed o improvethe shape of the carcase and give the ability to finish off grass .... I take the point about the modern Suffolk but if you can find a non-show strain they take some beating.
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Most breeding ewes are made up of native breeds and their crosses, put to suffolk or continental sire to produce fat lambs off grass. In upland areas blackface cheviot herdwick swaledale etc. are required for that environment they are often put to leicester tups to produce the popular mule for lowland flocks. Llyen are also popular I think taken over from the shetland cheviot. In a commercial situation lambs have to away fat at their target weight of 43 -45 kg liveweight to kill out at 21 kg deadweight asap. With 21 kg deadweight and good grades give you the maximum price paid. I If you let lambs get too fat and grow heavier you are losing money at the slaughter house as they penalize you heavily price wise- fined and don't pay over 23kg. We have a mix of cross bred ewes- mules llyens mule x texel or llyen and cheviot crosses and one ryeland. They are put to suffolk and charollais tups born march /april the lambs start going away fat off mothers milk and grass only end june July Aug Sept, now in Oct we have a only a few stragglers left. They are on young grass just now but as that goes we will start to feed them lamb finisher. This year we have found that the charollais lambs did better than the suffolks as we had to buy new tups this year we bought only charollais to add to our other char. tup. I agree the suffolk breeders have gone doolally with them breeding far to big heads and legs.As there is a liitle texel through some of our ewes using a texel tup would''nt work with us again too big heads being bred. Native breeds are useful and those that create markets for a premium product are doing well to keep the breed alive it is important to keep these going as well you never know market forces change it has happened before and it starting to happen in cattle. Britain is so diverse in landscape and you need the right breed for the right area. Native breeds unfortunately don't finish quickly enough with the right grades and need a market of their own for the lovely quality's that they have. Not everyone can have a farm shop and market their produce to a niche market ,so we are at the mercy of the supermarkets. Prices are loss making this year here's hope for next year.
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See. . . . . the argument could easily be made the other way!
Someone suggested that people only get 'foreign' breeds to be novel and different, rather than a practical reason.
I'd disagree and suggest that many smallholders get 'native' breeds to be novel and different, rather than a practical reason.
So many of our native breeds have been ruined by the show fraternity, and the gene pools of useful commercial animals are very small.
Most people use continentals etc, because they suit their system i.e. they provide most profit etc.
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My breed was a rare breed in its native country. Imported into this country and the population is booming here and we have protected a rare breed. They do have their problems but then every breed has got some downside to it especially removed from its native environment. Size - too big/small, Feed - too rich/poor, Climate - too wet/dry/windy/hot, Feet - a whole can of worms...
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What's generally kept very quiet is the survival rate, not only between scanning and lambing but scanning and weaning, as well as the ewe losses. Every farm is different and every lambing is different but judging by the regular pile of corpses awaiting collection at one local farm that runs Charollais and Texel rams with mules it seems to be far, far higher than ours (so far anyway).
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I don't really follow you MF. The survival rate of the mules? BFL are a sheep particularly known for sudden death without obvious cause so a negative for the British... are you blaming the import ram for lamb losses but not blaming the British ewe? Don't understand. Elaborate.
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all i can say is as a suffolk breeder myself, not all of use breed for big heads and legs and lazy lambs!
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Fair enough, is that one in your avatar photo typical for what you are breeding for regarding head and lower leg size?
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I don't really follow you MF. The survival rate of the mules? BFL are a sheep particularly known for sudden death without obvious cause so a negative for the British... are you blaming the import ram for lamb losses but not blaming the British ewe? Don't understand. Elaborate.
Not laying the blame at any particular breed, just observing that some big commercial farms appear to have a lot of deaths around lambing time, which must have a considerable impact on the average cost per finished lamb but little attention seems to be paid to survivability. In this area the Charollais has been less and less popular as a sire as the lamb survival rate is poor compared to a non-show type Suffolk and the Texel is declining in popularity due to lambing difficulties because of the big head. Hampshire Downs seems to be on the up, though, and a there's a resurgence of interest in the Border Leicester.
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Fair enough, is that one in your avatar photo typical for what you are breeding for regarding head and lower leg size?
hes a new stock ram, if i bred something like him i think i would be on to something..my ewes wouldn't be anywhere near are thick as him..he wouldn't even be considered thick compared to a lot rams out there...im actually doing my research paper on ebvs verse breeding for appearance
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Ah I see.
I'd say that this lack of attention to survivability and other traits is the scourge of all breeds in the UK that get popular, show/pedigree "breed and feed" types do tend to ruin them.
The ram lamb in my photo was a twin, born without any interventions and grass only reared (compare his head and lower leg size to the high value cuts). I sold him as a commercial crossing ram for Welsh ewes. I had one lamb that needed suckling that year - I could have sold him for £££s he was chopped and will sire no lambs.
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Well why not? We're smallholders here aren't we? That means we have the luxury of making decisions not based purely on commercial concerns.
For some, that will be to support a British rare breed (tried that - didn't end well for us though). For others, it will be keeping whatever breed we like the look of and suits our circumstances.
IMHO unless you're going to keep a rare breed, what difference does it make what country your sheep come from?
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Well why not? We're smallholders here aren't we? That means we have the luxury of making decisions not based purely on commercial concerns.
For some, that will be to support a British rare breed (tried that - didn't end well for us though). For others, it will be keeping whatever breed we like the look of and suits our circumstances.
IMHO unless you're going to keep a rare breed, what difference does it make what country your sheep come from?
I take your point on board Womble. I wasn't particularly aiming this at British 'rare' breeds but British breeds in general to be used in breeding programmes.
As I said earlier in order to promote our product (British meat) I feel we should be using British stock imho.
If the commercial market require a fast/forced grown, tasteless product so be it but in time I feel this will turn round and bite them on the backside. Perhaps this is happening now with the price of lamb this year.
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The price of lamb is a reflection of the exchange rate. The pound is strong against the euro at the moment. Most of the year-on-year fall in lamb prices disappears if you measure it in euros ;)
We sell Texel cross fat lambs, because that's what the market wants to buy and we can grow good ones on our land. Personally I find 4 month Texel lacking in flavour, though very lean and tender. Charollais, however, has a sweet succulence that is delicious.
We mostly sell the white lambs for whatever the market is paying that year, and grow and eat primitives and other natives ourselves.
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As I said earlier in order to promote our product (British meat) I feel we should be using British stock imho. [/quote]
[/quote] If the commercial market require a fast/forced grown, tasteless product so be it but in time I feel this will turn round and bite them on the backside. Perhaps this is happening now with the price of lamb this year.
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I think the first point you make here is a good one potentially when targeting a British consumer, many British lamb consumers are extremely cost concious or put religious sensibilities above the breed of sheep they are eating though. Also with the very poor labelling of our food in general (its hard to pick out COO or indeed species in some cases!) it may prove a hard sell so - it is a good idea but with limited potential at the moment I fear.
I feel you have missed the mark somewhat in the second point you make, the commercial market don't require fast or forced growth at all, they don't care how much you spent getting the animal to market or how you did it. If you did it off grass quickly or on concentrates slowly it does not matter to them how much money you are losing! The basic fact is the price of lamb is extremely volatile year on year and always has been, for British breeds to have commercial futures they have to produce lamb (in whatever system) for less £ than the buyers want to pay for that lamb. Whether that is in spec or out of spec, grass/concentrates whatever - it just has to leave a margin. In my little effort I have found a breed of British ewe very good (Lleyn) and various large British and continental breeds not so good and for this reason I imported my little pink alien pigs in wigs. Our system is all about lots of low cost, small-medium lambs that survive and grow regardless on grass/reeds with as little help and as few stores as possible.
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Charollais has an injection of Merino somewhere along the line, I believe. Merino was the breed John Ellman used around 1780 to improe the fleece of his local Southdown breed but it couldn't cope with the UK climate and was shipped off to Australia. I think for the Charollais the King of Spain gave a flock to the King of France, who built a model farm to house them and they were subsequently crossed onto native Frenchbreeds to improve their fleece as well.
Southdown has, according to one RBST guru, the sweetest flavour apart from Portland. Ours are grass fed only and ready for slaughter at around November at 8 to 9 months. The cross breeds are sold as stores at market - we did have one slaughtered once but it wasn't nearly as good.
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There's charmoise in them there charollais :innocent:
I just think you run what you like, but it has to suit your terrain and climate. We suit the lleyn and they suit us.
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There's charmoise in them there charollais :innocent:
That'd be the bit of them thats any good :innocent: :innocent:
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I think as smallholders we are lucky and can pick the sheep that appeal to us for whatever reasons :)
I adore Zwartbles. I've researched all their pros and cons but the overwhelming win for me with them is I like the look of them which is what is going to get me out to them in a howling storm or thick snow. I may have to breed smarter and work harder to get the end results that others achieve easier but I'd rather than do that than have Southdowns as an example = plenty of people love them but for me .. no way. I won't rule out trying Zwartble x Southdown as an experiment but I have only ever found pure Southdowns to annoy me in all aspects.
I like the look of the Primitives but again, are they a breed for me? I've liked the Border Leicesters I've met but could I run a whole load of them year in year out? If I had to stick to a British breed chances are I'd struggle and that benefits no-one :)
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I think as smallholders we are lucky and can pick the sheep that appeal to us for whatever reasons :)
I adore Zwartbles. I've researched all their pros and cons but the overwhelming win for me with them is I like the look of them which is what is going to get me out to them in a howling storm or thick snow.
+1, and I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that ;D. You forgot to mention temperament though. For me, the biggest win is that I can always pen them reliably with just the shake of a bucket, and that they are never afraid of me or what I'm about to do to them. Sure, I'd rather they were a UK breed, but there are some things you just can't help.
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I think as smallholders we are lucky and can pick the sheep that appeal to us for whatever reasons :)
I adore Zwartbles. I've researched all their pros and cons but the overwhelming win for me with them is I like the look of them which is what is going to get me out to them in a howling storm or thick snow.
+1, and I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that ;D. You forgot to mention temperament though. For me, the biggest win is that I can always pen them reliably with just the shake of a bucket, and that they are never afraid of me or what I'm about to do to them. Sure, I'd rather they were a UK breed, but there are some things you just can't help.
Aha! Yours need a shake of the bucket? Mine just need me to appear in a gateway and say "C'mon".
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I think as smallholders we are lucky and can pick the sheep that appeal to us for whatever reasons :)
I adore Zwartbles. I've researched all their pros and cons but the overwhelming win for me with them is I like the look of them which is what is going to get me out to them in a howling storm or thick snow.
+1, and I'm so glad it's not just me who thinks that ;D. You forgot to mention temperament though. For me, the biggest win is that I can always pen them reliably with just the shake of a bucket, and that they are never afraid of me or what I'm about to do to them. Sure, I'd rather they were a UK breed, but there are some things you just can't help.
Aha! Yours need a shake of the bucket? Mine just need me to appear in a gateway and say "C'mon".
And mine are even better than that, I shake no bucket or say no C'mon, the dog just brings them all in :roflanim:
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I just go EWE lol
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the commercial market don't require fast or forced growth at all, they don't care how much you spent getting the animal to market or how you did it. If you did it off grass quickly or on concentrates slowly it does not matter to them how much money you are losing!
Actually, to supply Morrisons we have to confirm that the lambs are wholly or predominantly grass fed. They really don't want and wouldn't knowingly buy lambs from feed lots with ad lib concentrate - at least, not for the Premium British Lamb range, they wouldn't.
When Tesco do their Tesco Finest - Regional Produce scheme, bonuses are payable only when lamb from that region should be in season, so for us it's November through January. So they are effectively paying us extra to grow them more slowly, as our climate demands. Unfortunately they don't seem to run the scheme every year, or it would begin to impact market prices.
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So should I start declaring loudly in the market that my Lleyn x Charmoise are grass fed? If so would you expect more to be paid for them?
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That is really interesting Sally. I might be more inclined to buy their produce when (and if) I ever run out of home produced.
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So should I start declaring loudly in the market that my Lleyn x Charmoise are grass fed? If so would you expect more to be paid for them?
It depends on whether there are buyers there buying for the supermarkets, and which schemes are wanting lambs at that time.
We sell our lambs direct, deadweight, through a collection centre nearby. The folks that run the collection centre know which supermarket is wanting which sort of lamb, and which producer is producing the right kind of lamb, so marry the two up. One week our lambs may go to Morrisons and the next Asda; the following month Tesco. Each has their own payment schedule and scheme, paperwork and bonus system. The collection centre co-ordinate everything, and one of their fellas will buy from the local marts to top up any wagonloads that are short. However, for the Morrisons British Premium Lamb, they would have to buy store lambs and put them on good grass for 60 days before they would be eligible.