Smallholders Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion  (Read 18556 times)

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2015, 08:52:40 pm »
I wanted to order one in a jar, Alistair.  :(

But that is what people do, isn't it? We breed for specific characteristics .... conformation, colour, size, abilities. Whatever we feel is important. Problems occur, yes. Not just in dogs but all animals as you've pointed out. So, who should breed dogs and for which characteristics? Who should stop and who gets permission to carry on. Who decides?

SITN  When finding my lab pup I contacted a few breeders on the KC Breeders list. They had the necessary checks but when I questioned hip scores the results were not good. You have to find out what the breed average is and what is considered a good score and you have to ask for the actual scores. Not enough that they have been checked.

honeyend

  • Joined Oct 2011
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2015, 11:03:13 pm »
I have always had mutts, since we were first married 34 years ago, usually from rescue, colliex, labx, 2 lurchers and now have a rottiex, they have all been good natured family pets. Them have lived to a grand age, never had a big vets bill apart from the last one, I have them put down at home and all have been sound to the day they died. Seen as a couple of them had very bad starts in life I think they were very crossbred must have given them a good chance of not having a mix of too similar genes and good herd resistance.
  I have a friend who breeds from her pet JR but they are very closely related and they do not seem to live very long.

Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2015, 12:16:13 am »
I have pedigree dogs an isds wsd and a cross breed so def not in one camp or the other. Surely its like sheep you need those who breed pure texels suffolks or the like but theres nothing wrong with crosses with other breeds for various purposes. Hybrid vigour definitely exists but its a generalisation one crossbred dog may not outlive a pure bred.
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

Buttermilk

  • Joined Jul 2014
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2015, 09:27:30 am »
Most dogs are fashion accessories.  The chav with his staffy the tough guy and his german shepherd/rotty/dobe...
people choose them as that is suposedly their type of dog.  There is always a market for cute puppies of any kind as many people do not look into the breed characteristics.  This is pandered to by all sections of the community who just have a litter "for the bitch's sake", often not looking too far for dad.

I know people who boast of rescuing puppies from bad breeders.  They pay good money for the pup, or whole litter in some cases, but the seller just puts mum in pup again as he has discovered a good source of cash.

My current dogs are not "rescued" but "rehomed" and I feel that this distinction should apply to many dogs that change homes.  To me rescue implies neglect or abuse while rehoming is just that from one place to another.

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2015, 10:03:17 am »
Most dogs are fashion accessories.  The chav with his staffy the tough guy and his german shepherd/rotty/dobe...

I've got two whippets, one lurcher, one GSD, one collie. Therefore I must be a neurotic tough guy who wears a camel coat and a flat cap? (I actually agree with you though!)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2015, 10:15:16 am »
As I understand it, with what I can remember of my degree-level but a very long time ago genetics, the thinking is that a first cross between two distinct breeds, called F1 in Mendelian genetics, gains 'hybrid vigour' from the mix of the two distinct, unrelated sets of genes.

It's used in agriculture, both in plants and animals. 

I think that the North of England Mule is still the most prevalent mother of a fat lamb in England; she's a first cross of a Blue-faced Leicester father on a hill ewe, usually a Swaledale or a Blackface.

The Blue Grey cow is a superb suckler cow for the hill and moor; her father is a Whitebred Shorthorn and her mother a Galloway.

So personally, I have no problem with the trend for crossbred pups in principle.  As Labradoodles and Cockapoos become popular, with sensible breeders and good practises, there should be no reason that strains of Poodle good for siring Labradoodles, and for siring Cockapoos, shouldn't become established.  But they may well be different strains - a dog that makes a good sire of a labradoodle may have different characteristics to one which makes a good sire of a Cockapoo.

I also have no problem with the naming of crossbreeds, so long as it is applied consistently.  In the same way as a sheep advertised as a North of England Mule is certainly 50% BFL on her father's side and out of a blackfaced northern hill ewe, I would want it to be the case that, at the very least, something described as a Cockapoo is a first cross (F1) between a Cocker Spaniel and a Poodle.

With livestock, this consistency, not only of the breeding but of the outcome, is achieved by the establishment of Breeders' Societies for the type of animal.  So I would rather see the Kennel Club at the very least encourage the establishment of Breeders' Societies which can be affiliated for these crossbreeds.

« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 11:06:47 am by SallyintNorth »
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
    • Trelay Cohousing Community
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2015, 11:05:29 am »
I should add that until I started farming, I only ever had rescue dogs.  (And rescues in every sense of the word - one was a rehome through the RSPCA, but we soon found out why he'd been put in for rehoming...)

All the rescues were Bitzers.  One pair I rescued myself were, I used to quip, 'purebred mongrels'.  I doubt there'd ever been a single purebred pedigree dog in their ancestry!  They were clearly littermates, but very different.  One was like a very large black Corgi, short legs, pointed ears, pointed nose, thick short tail, pronounced 'stop', body about the size of a Labrador, but much lower to the ground - a lovely, lovely dog, found her a good home no bother.  Her sister was a gangly-legged hound type of a dog.  Also black but different in almost every other respect!  I was never certain enough of her ability to settle in another home, particularly with children, so she ended up staying with me and was a very much loved friend for 10 years.  (She was a very large dog, Dobermann sized, and succumbed to osteosarcoma at 10 years old.  :'()

I have no problem at all with crossbreeds or mongrels, many are wonderful dogs, make superb family pets, etc etc.  But there's no question that you have far less idea about what you are likely to be getting than you do with a purebred.  Even when you take on an adult, you don't know what conditioned behaviours lurk in there unless the parentage is evident on the surface (or is known.)   The loveliest, kindest, easiest dog I had was Horace; he looked like a flop-eared long-haired GSD, or some thought he looked like a Leonberger, but there was working sheepdog in there, we discovered once we had him home and out in the countryside!

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cows (rearing their own calves for beef), pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

clydesdaleclopper

  • Joined Aug 2009
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2015, 12:22:36 pm »
This discussion has reminded me of a lovely Heinz57 I had many years ago that I got from the pound in Sheffield. One time I was away travelling she went to stay with my mum who has lots of friends who shoot. One of them commented that if she hadn't looked so strange (the dog not my mum  ;D ) he would have used her as a gun dog as she was far better than any of his springer spaniels. My thought was why do her looks matter? Many dogs are used to project an image for the owner. The first wolfhound that I rescued was clearly bought for image purposes.
Our holding has Anglo Nubian and British Toggenburg goats, Gotland sheep, Franconian Geese, Blue Swedish ducks, a whole load of mongrel hens and two semi-feral children.

Old Shep

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • North Yorkshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2015, 10:43:59 pm »
To some extent if you get a rescue dog from a really good rescue you know better what you are getting than with a purebred puppy.  if the rescue has worked with the dog they will tell uou as it is. With a puppy you may meet mother briefly possibly not father and have to trust tge breeder in their descriptions of the parents. Even then the pup may turn out differently!
Helen - (used to be just Shep).  Gordon Setters, Border Collies and chief lambing assistant to BigBennyShep.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
  • Qui? Moi?
    • ABERDON GUNDOGS for work and show
    • Facebook
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #24 on: February 04, 2015, 03:43:44 pm »
My attitude is  - why breed at all when there are dogs being put to death simply because they are not wanted?  Brought into this world just to die prematurely through no fault of their own.

Only two reasons - money, power

Have you seen what they do in Spain and its islands and similar countries - in my breed alone if a pup hasn't started to hunt well in its first year it's tied to a post in the middle of a field way out of the way of habitation and left.  Any that are found are taken to a 'kill centre'; and they have 7 days for a home to be found for them.  They have to be tested for leishmaniasis before they can come to the UK but friends of mine are looking for homes for at least 2 a week at the moment. 

The lucky ones that have developed their instincts in time are fed bread and water.  When they get old or tired because they don't have a good diet they too are turned out to fend for themselves.

So I will only breed if I have had ALL health tests done and have AT LEAST double the number of knowledgeable homes available for any pups my bitch is likely to produce.  They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones.  You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.

Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs.  Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?

Rant over  :rant:
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

verdifish

  • Joined Jan 2013
  • banffshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2015, 05:18:16 pm »
My attitude is  - why breed at all when there are dogs being put to death simply because they are not wanted?  Brought into this world just to die prematurely through no fault of their own.

Only two reasons - money, power

Have you seen what they do in Spain and its islands and similar countries - in my breed alone if a pup hasn't started to hunt well in its first year it's tied to a post in the middle of a field way out of the way of habitation and left.  Any that are found are taken to a 'kill centre'; and they have 7 days for a home to be found for them.  They have to be tested for leishmaniasis before they can come to the UK but friends of mine are looking for homes for at least 2 a week at the moment. 

The lucky ones that have developed their instincts in time are fed bread and water.  When they get old or tired because they don't have a good diet they too are turned out to fend for themselves.

So I will only breed if I have had ALL health tests done and have AT LEAST double the number of knowledgeable homes available for any pups my bitch is likely to produce.  They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones.  You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.

Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs.  Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?

Rant over  :rant:



So breeding in all of its cruelty for money and power is bad if its anyone else but fir you its ok ??? How hypocritical  !!!

verdifish

  • Joined Jan 2013
  • banffshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #26 on: February 04, 2015, 05:23:02 pm »
And what's more not all breeders are bad just because the dogs arnt bred to prance the hallowed carpets of cructs makes them no less viable as fit health working friends that have 4 legs .rant over!!!

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #27 on: February 04, 2015, 05:32:54 pm »
Mmmmm , so is it okay to breed if health checks are carried out and you have a list of homes before breeding?

Any breeds, cross breeds .... which are okay?

You say , 'Why breed at all?'  , but then talk about breeding from your own bitch.


Some might say that they wished to breed a 'cross breed' to benefit from good traits of both breeds and minimise adverse ones or improve health.


NicandChic

  • Joined Oct 2013
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #28 on: February 04, 2015, 05:33:45 pm »
Weve had a litter and will be having more...motives are neither money or power.
I'm not in the mood for a rant so shall leave it at that  :innocent:

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2015, 06:13:06 pm »
"They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones.  You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.

Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs.  Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?"


I can't fault your thinking. The only note of caution is in Pedigree (closed breeds) careful breeders such as yourself can reduce genetic diversity quickly which in breeds with a small genetic base can lead to big problems quickly and you can face either the extinction of a breed or have to cross breed to maintain health and vigour.

eg. the Bedlington terrier and the crossing in of other (Lakeland?) terrier blood due to widespread copper storage disease issues.

 :idea: There could be an argument made for planned limited breeding towards the less favoured and potentially less healthy members within small breeds to maintain alternative lines.  :dunce: Ooo eer!

 

Forum sponsors

FibreHut Energy Helpline Thomson & Morgan Time for Paws Scottish Smallholder & Grower Festival Ark Farm Livestock Movement Service

© The Accidental Smallholder Ltd 2003-2024. All rights reserved.

Design by Furness Internet

Site developed by Champion IS