The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: SallyintNorth on January 31, 2015, 11:49:08 am
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I know this is an emotive topic, and we have in the past had threads closed down because we couldn't play nice, but there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum, I hope we can collate some of that into a well-behaved and informative thread.
As an opening statement, I think we can all agree that we abhor puppy farms, indiscriminate matings of any two dogs of whatever breed or breeding, and all acknowledge that the offspring of two purebred dogs of the same breed are more predictable in terms of eventual characteristics than the offspring of two dogs of different breeds - even if both those dogs are purebred specimens of their own breed.
Personally, I very carefully use the term 'purebred' to mean bred pure, ie, all ancestors of the same breed; the term 'pedigree' to mean of known ancestry - which may or may not be a purebred one; 'registered' to mean registered with the Kennel Club and/or breed or activity society.
Another term we probably need to define is 'health checked'. Or perhaps we need a raft of terms to describe the different elements. 'Vet checked' to mean the parent has been checked as fit for breeding by a vet. 'All relevant health checks' to mean has had the breed- or type-specific checks for known problems with that breed or type.
One thing I don't know and hope to learn is whether there is a recognised term to mean that not only has the dog or bitch been checked, but its scores/results were good. I've seen ads which say 'health checked' and then find that the hip score, for instance, is, although reasonable for the breed, a long way from perfect.
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On the subject of this being an emotive topic and playing nice... I don't want to create a storm, and I don't want to make work for the lovely folk who run this forum, nor those volunteers who help them, so my plan is that if a post appears to be inflammatory or disrespectful, I will contact the author by PM in the first instance and ask them to kindly rephrase.
If we can't manage to keep it civilised, I'll lock the thread - but hopefully it won't come to that! (Pretty please! :eyelashes:)
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"we can all agree that we abhor....... indiscriminate matings of any two dogs of whatever breed or breeding"
No, not all! To play Devils advocate for a minute you could argue that back garden indiscriminate breeders are actually keeping more genetic diversity in Pedigree breeds as they are less discriminate and a wider gene pool is maintained vs. discriminate breeders who tend to use a smaller population of trial winners/show winners as sires...
Thats got it off to a good start!
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I myself are so sick of seeing people selling just about anything and making up a name for it. Not too mention adding just how cute and loveable their pups are. Health checks should mean eyes, hips etc and be able to show the paperwork that these have been done. How many dogs end up in rescue centre due to having issues. There are lots of purebred dogs that should never have pups but when there is money to be made that is what comes first. I don't know what the answer is but something needs to be done.
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On the subject of this being an emotive topic and playing nice... I don't want to create a storm, and I don't want to make work for the lovely folk who run this forum, nor those volunteers who help them, so my plan is that if a post appears to be inflammatory or disrespectful, I will contact the author by PM in the first instance and ask them to kindly rephrase.
If we can't manage to keep it civilised, I'll lock the thread - but hopefully it won't come to that! (Pretty please! :eyelashes:)
I'll let you know when my in box starts filling up with 'report to moderator' stuff :innocent:
Anyway.... Back to the topic in hand... What Sabrina says, totally agree, people see it as a way to make money and to be possibly a little more controversial, unless the dog is bread as a working dog, and there are few breeds that still really deserve that title, then it's all whimsicle fashion, I.e a Dalmatian is a breed but hasn't got any use other than looking nice anymore so what's it bred for? It's not a species that needs protecting or anything?
I.e. What's the point of pedigree (non working breeds )dogs anyway? If it's not for making money? If you want a working collie you wouldn't get a pedigree you'd get an isds dog?
My view is, unless you need a particular breed for a particular job, you should just go to the nearest rescue centre and start there.
Oh and I did do that, I have 2 isds border collies who work & a rescue dog who's grade 7 agility and a rescue lurcher
If we did this as humans to ourselves god knows what the consequences would be.
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But Alistair .... if no one bred Dalmations, they would (depending on your point of view) need protecting wouldn't they? ;D So, if no one bred 'pedigrees' we would lose potentially a lot of breeds. Breeds that a lot of people enjoy keeping.
As for these 'designer' dogs, well there is a demand. Most people don't need a 'working' breed these days. If they fancy one of these crosses as their family pet .... why not? If there is a demand then a price will be set by that demand. This is just the same as with anything else. I'm not sure that this is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe these crosses make better pets than a lot of pure breeds.
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Many of the 'pure' breeds do have health issues. I suppose the first thing you need to know at the beginning of a discussion is how much healthier are the crosses. Is there research/studies where you can look at actual figures? And are you talking about 'first crosses', as Sabrina talks about, the 'designer' dogs or proper 'mutts'? ;D
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I was always led to believe that a Jack Russell x chihuahua was a mongrel not a Jackahuhua.WhenI was young you had to give cross breeds like this away not charge crazy money.
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What is a isds dog Alistair? Forgive me if I'm being stupid......
Beth
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Many of the 'pure' breeds do have health issues. I suppose the first thing you need to know at the beginning of a discussion is how much healthier are the crosses. Is there research/studies where you can look at actual figures? And are you talking about 'first crosses', as Sabrina talks about, the 'designer' dogs or proper 'mutts'? ;D
I know my two crosses, mini a gsx and George the lurcher are a good deal cheaper to insure than my two isds collies, if that's anything to go by
I think what I was trying to get at re existence of pedigrees is that they are there as a fashion item, like a Gucci handbag to some extent, i mean round here it's staffs, up near my mum and dad it's collies and gun dogs, I have other freinds who live in a very wealthy area and they all have labs.. So there's the demand and that's why their bred as a business and asking is that right when there are so many dogs in rescue centres because they're bred to make money and bought as a fad etc etc
Beth isds border collies is basically a working pedigree, so the lines are traced through their ability to be a sheepdog rather than the shape of their eyes and the length of their noses.. If that makes sense
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Isds - international sheepdog society btw
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I sort of know what you mean Alistair but don't think that most 'pedigrees' are bought as a fad or fashion item. Of course some will be but not most. I suppose breeds may go in and out of fashion a bit. For example ... When a Flat Coat first won Crufts it probably brought the breed to peoples attention. More were probably sold because suddenly people were aware of them. My dad bought one after seeing Shargleam Blackcap win that title. Wasn't a fad though. Worked them, showed them and I still own one.
The people that have labs may well have grown up having labs as family dogs and that is why they have them. Nothing to do with being wealthy. They know the breed and like them. Like me with my retrievers.
You have border collies so you have a 'breed'. Were they rescues or bought as pups? Why did you have a breed and not a mongrel. Maybe because they are good at agility. Horses for courses. Other people want a lab for its temperament, ease of training, its looks, etc. Just as important to them as the collies intelligence is to you.
You know I'm not having a moan at you Alistair :eyelashes: just that this thread could turn into a big bad pedigrees and their breeders thread and think the whole thing is quite complex and it is so easy to judge others.
The Isds is not without its 'doubters' either. I know some farmers, trainers, trial people of collies who feel that the Isds may in the long run do the working collie no favours at all.
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I think it maybe boils down to ,people will buy or rescue a dog because they like that particular dog ! Some breeds are much more prone to issues than others just the same as people !!! My dogs are the best in the world in my opinion and no body can say that is not true !!! Arguing the toss over pure bred or not is a complete can of worms and there will never be a right ir wrong answer .I like beer but Suzanne like cider !!! But we live with that as arguing would be pointless !!!
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I agree with you to some extent re breeds, I'm just taking a polarised stance for the purpose of the discussion
Re my collies, yes I value their intelligence and they both have jobs, ones a sheepdog and the other is starting her agility career, but the best dog I've ever had re agility is mini and she's a proper mongrel
The problem with this discussion is going to be that generally we are all 'dog people' we are NOT the problem
The problems come from the breeders who see £700 x each pup from each bitch once a year and not the breed itself or if I get a shitzu and a jackrussel I can make a jackzu or whatever and that's a grand a piece etc etc and then there's the mugs who buy them
I used to breed royal python morphs, some of mine where changing hands for thousands of pounds each, then, my killer bee morph line started to stargaze, wobbly head, stare at the sky and then die, this is a genetic condition and I caused it by accident, most of the spider lines suffer from this now and they change hands for around £600 these days, I learnt a lot, stopped breeding them and sold my stock as pets, now I'm breeding common boas, and guess what, they've started giving them silly names now, like two oastels bread together are being called super oastels (pale ones) and the prices are going up as the Nantes are getting sillier, I saw a super oastels possibly het albino carlstrain fir sake the other day for 600 quid, it's rubbish carlstrain means nothing and a super oastels is two oastels bread together which you get from an albino x normal so a super pastel must have albino genes so it isn't possibly anything :gloomy:
My experience being if you let silly buggers, like me, loose with a breeding stock then your going to nake a lot of money until you realise you've killed your best animals, then you feel bad, really bad and that's what people gave started doing with dogs and I wish they'd stop.
I'm going back to my new project now, I'm trying to grow kittens in jars, bonsai kittens ... They're to go with your micro pigs.... And eventually, when I've purrfected them, I'm going to sell them in your local garden centres
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For oastel read pastel, bloody spell check
Oh and I lied about the kittens
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I wanted to order one in a jar, Alistair. :(
But that is what people do, isn't it? We breed for specific characteristics .... conformation, colour, size, abilities. Whatever we feel is important. Problems occur, yes. Not just in dogs but all animals as you've pointed out. So, who should breed dogs and for which characteristics? Who should stop and who gets permission to carry on. Who decides?
SITN When finding my lab pup I contacted a few breeders on the KC Breeders list. They had the necessary checks but when I questioned hip scores the results were not good. You have to find out what the breed average is and what is considered a good score and you have to ask for the actual scores. Not enough that they have been checked.
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I have always had mutts, since we were first married 34 years ago, usually from rescue, colliex, labx, 2 lurchers and now have a rottiex, they have all been good natured family pets. Them have lived to a grand age, never had a big vets bill apart from the last one, I have them put down at home and all have been sound to the day they died. Seen as a couple of them had very bad starts in life I think they were very crossbred must have given them a good chance of not having a mix of too similar genes and good herd resistance.
I have a friend who breeds from her pet JR but they are very closely related and they do not seem to live very long.
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I have pedigree dogs an isds wsd and a cross breed so def not in one camp or the other. Surely its like sheep you need those who breed pure texels suffolks or the like but theres nothing wrong with crosses with other breeds for various purposes. Hybrid vigour definitely exists but its a generalisation one crossbred dog may not outlive a pure bred.
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Most dogs are fashion accessories. The chav with his staffy the tough guy and his german shepherd/rotty/dobe...
people choose them as that is suposedly their type of dog. There is always a market for cute puppies of any kind as many people do not look into the breed characteristics. This is pandered to by all sections of the community who just have a litter "for the bitch's sake", often not looking too far for dad.
I know people who boast of rescuing puppies from bad breeders. They pay good money for the pup, or whole litter in some cases, but the seller just puts mum in pup again as he has discovered a good source of cash.
My current dogs are not "rescued" but "rehomed" and I feel that this distinction should apply to many dogs that change homes. To me rescue implies neglect or abuse while rehoming is just that from one place to another.
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Most dogs are fashion accessories. The chav with his staffy the tough guy and his german shepherd/rotty/dobe...
I've got two whippets, one lurcher, one GSD, one collie. Therefore I must be a neurotic tough guy who wears a camel coat and a flat cap? (I actually agree with you though!)
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As I understand it, with what I can remember of my degree-level but a very long time ago genetics, the thinking is that a first cross between two distinct breeds, called F1 in Mendelian genetics, gains 'hybrid vigour' from the mix of the two distinct, unrelated sets of genes.
It's used in agriculture, both in plants and animals.
I think that the North of England Mule is still the most prevalent mother of a fat lamb in England; she's a first cross of a Blue-faced Leicester father on a hill ewe, usually a Swaledale or a Blackface.
The Blue Grey cow is a superb suckler cow for the hill and moor; her father is a Whitebred Shorthorn and her mother a Galloway.
So personally, I have no problem with the trend for crossbred pups in principle. As Labradoodles and Cockapoos become popular, with sensible breeders and good practises, there should be no reason that strains of Poodle good for siring Labradoodles, and for siring Cockapoos, shouldn't become established. But they may well be different strains - a dog that makes a good sire of a labradoodle may have different characteristics to one which makes a good sire of a Cockapoo.
I also have no problem with the naming of crossbreeds, so long as it is applied consistently. In the same way as a sheep advertised as a North of England Mule is certainly 50% BFL on her father's side and out of a blackfaced northern hill ewe, I would want it to be the case that, at the very least, something described as a Cockapoo is a first cross (F1) between a Cocker Spaniel and a Poodle.
With livestock, this consistency, not only of the breeding but of the outcome, is achieved by the establishment of Breeders' Societies for the type of animal. So I would rather see the Kennel Club at the very least encourage the establishment of Breeders' Societies which can be affiliated for these crossbreeds.
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I should add that until I started farming, I only ever had rescue dogs. (And rescues in every sense of the word - one was a rehome through the RSPCA, but we soon found out why he'd been put in for rehoming...)
All the rescues were Bitzers. One pair I rescued myself were, I used to quip, 'purebred mongrels'. I doubt there'd ever been a single purebred pedigree dog in their ancestry! They were clearly littermates, but very different. One was like a very large black Corgi, short legs, pointed ears, pointed nose, thick short tail, pronounced 'stop', body about the size of a Labrador, but much lower to the ground - a lovely, lovely dog, found her a good home no bother. Her sister was a gangly-legged hound type of a dog. Also black but different in almost every other respect! I was never certain enough of her ability to settle in another home, particularly with children, so she ended up staying with me and was a very much loved friend for 10 years. (She was a very large dog, Dobermann sized, and succumbed to osteosarcoma at 10 years old. :'()
I have no problem at all with crossbreeds or mongrels, many are wonderful dogs, make superb family pets, etc etc. But there's no question that you have far less idea about what you are likely to be getting than you do with a purebred. Even when you take on an adult, you don't know what conditioned behaviours lurk in there unless the parentage is evident on the surface (or is known.) The loveliest, kindest, easiest dog I had was Horace; he looked like a flop-eared long-haired GSD, or some thought he looked like a Leonberger, but there was working sheepdog in there, we discovered once we had him home and out in the countryside!
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This discussion has reminded me of a lovely Heinz57 I had many years ago that I got from the pound in Sheffield. One time I was away travelling she went to stay with my mum who has lots of friends who shoot. One of them commented that if she hadn't looked so strange (the dog not my mum ;D ) he would have used her as a gun dog as she was far better than any of his springer spaniels. My thought was why do her looks matter? Many dogs are used to project an image for the owner. The first wolfhound that I rescued was clearly bought for image purposes.
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To some extent if you get a rescue dog from a really good rescue you know better what you are getting than with a purebred puppy. if the rescue has worked with the dog they will tell uou as it is. With a puppy you may meet mother briefly possibly not father and have to trust tge breeder in their descriptions of the parents. Even then the pup may turn out differently!
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My attitude is - why breed at all when there are dogs being put to death simply because they are not wanted? Brought into this world just to die prematurely through no fault of their own.
Only two reasons - money, power
Have you seen what they do in Spain and its islands and similar countries - in my breed alone if a pup hasn't started to hunt well in its first year it's tied to a post in the middle of a field way out of the way of habitation and left. Any that are found are taken to a 'kill centre'; and they have 7 days for a home to be found for them. They have to be tested for leishmaniasis before they can come to the UK but friends of mine are looking for homes for at least 2 a week at the moment.
The lucky ones that have developed their instincts in time are fed bread and water. When they get old or tired because they don't have a good diet they too are turned out to fend for themselves.
So I will only breed if I have had ALL health tests done and have AT LEAST double the number of knowledgeable homes available for any pups my bitch is likely to produce. They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones. You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.
Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs. Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?
Rant over :rant:
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My attitude is - why breed at all when there are dogs being put to death simply because they are not wanted? Brought into this world just to die prematurely through no fault of their own.
Only two reasons - money, power
Have you seen what they do in Spain and its islands and similar countries - in my breed alone if a pup hasn't started to hunt well in its first year it's tied to a post in the middle of a field way out of the way of habitation and left. Any that are found are taken to a 'kill centre'; and they have 7 days for a home to be found for them. They have to be tested for leishmaniasis before they can come to the UK but friends of mine are looking for homes for at least 2 a week at the moment.
The lucky ones that have developed their instincts in time are fed bread and water. When they get old or tired because they don't have a good diet they too are turned out to fend for themselves.
So I will only breed if I have had ALL health tests done and have AT LEAST double the number of knowledgeable homes available for any pups my bitch is likely to produce. They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones. You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.
Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs. Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?
Rant over :rant:
So breeding in all of its cruelty for money and power is bad if its anyone else but fir you its ok ??? How hypocritical !!!
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And what's more not all breeders are bad just because the dogs arnt bred to prance the hallowed carpets of cructs makes them no less viable as fit health working friends that have 4 legs .rant over!!!
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Mmmmm , so is it okay to breed if health checks are carried out and you have a list of homes before breeding?
Any breeds, cross breeds .... which are okay?
You say , 'Why breed at all?' , but then talk about breeding from your own bitch.
Some might say that they wished to breed a 'cross breed' to benefit from good traits of both breeds and minimise adverse ones or improve health.
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Weve had a litter and will be having more...motives are neither money or power.
I'm not in the mood for a rant so shall leave it at that :innocent:
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"They will be very carefully, thoughtfully, and knowledgably line bred to maintain the good traits of my beloved Brittanys and minimise the adverse ones. You will not see me advertising on here - I will have no need.
Yes I am obsessive about breeding minimally and breeding only healthy dogs. Can anyone give me a good reason why I should not be?"
I can't fault your thinking. The only note of caution is in Pedigree (closed breeds) careful breeders such as yourself can reduce genetic diversity quickly which in breeds with a small genetic base can lead to big problems quickly and you can face either the extinction of a breed or have to cross breed to maintain health and vigour.
eg. the Bedlington terrier and the crossing in of other (Lakeland?) terrier blood due to widespread copper storage disease issues.
:idea: There could be an argument made for planned limited breeding towards the less favoured and potentially less healthy members within small breeds to maintain alternative lines. :dunce: Ooo eer!
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Or... my favoured option of crossing to healthy animals from a similar breed
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Seems to have gone a bit quiet in here ! Wonder why ???
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Its usually my fault :unwell:
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Those in glass houses should definitely not throw horseshoes !!! So neither of our faults this time .It must be really hard being perfect ! :fc:
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Been away with limited 'net access for a few days - glad to see that the debate is lively but still reasonably well-mannered!
It's quite interesting that breeding for excellence must also keep an eye to maintaining breadth of gene pool - again, to take examples from agriculture, it is interesting to see that crossing in and out does occur in order to prevent over-dominance of certain less desirable features. For instance, Hexhamshire Blackface breeders will cross in a judicious dollop of Swaledale if their sheep become too short-legged and/or dippy-backed; Swaledale breeders will cross in a bit of Hexhamshire Blackface if their Swales are getting too narrow or kempy... ;p (Not that any of them will admit that out loud, of course!) And Blue-faced Leicesters being bred for siring North of England Mules will often have a soupcon of Teeswater or other breed to help put the facial markings on the Mule ewe lambs...
It's something which I ponder about, that this outcrossing which goes on and has helped to maintain a good gene pool and healthy stock may be adversely impacted by DNA recording and testing of breeding males... :thinking:
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It must be really hard being perfect ! :fc:
I must admit it is a burden at times. :trophy: :innocent:
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Can I just clarify a couple of things?
1. I have bred 2 litters of cockers, and 6 litters of Brittanys in 42 years. Not exactly a big breeder. :innocent:
2. All my dogs are hip scored and health checked prior to mating
3. All bar 3 of the Brittany pups I bred are or were working to the gun or birds of prey.
4. All my litters were oversubscribed, and were suggested by others due to the qualities/achievements of my dogs
5. My dogs are working dogs as well as show dogs (that just happens to be a hobby which I enjoy)
6. I have no objection to anyone breeding with the same(or better) standards as myself.
7. Taking my time, feeding, vet bills, health tests etc into consideration as an accountant I estimate that I have made a loss rather than a profit, but I have gained a great many friends.
8. I am obsessive about idiots breeding willy nilly to line their pockets
9. I am campaigning for a properly policed licencing and registration system for dog breeding.
10. I am a firm believer in breeding for improvements and minimising disease and health problems, so I take great care in examining pedigrees - whether that be pure or cross breeds - every living thing on this planet has a pedigree.
But then I am not on trial here, or am I? :roflanim:
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Just out of interest I have been on preloved and was amazed to see how many Jackshites, Cockerpoos, Shiteauhahs even Foxpoos (I think) advertised and all being sold for the best part of a month's wages. I'm sure nobody can tell me that these litters were planned with the good of the breed in mind!
I was also distressed by the amount of Staffords in rescue.
A dog is a dog and cross breeds just as loving and loved as any, I have had plenty in my time but these were usually the result of someone leaving a door open or the randy dog up the road scaling a 6ft. fence and owners glad to give a pup away to a good home.
Now they are big money. How many (though there were a few) spend money on essential health tests? How many know- or care- if their minature poodle bitch has Progressive Retinal Atrophy or that the Shite Zu they use has a dodgy patella? And how many part with the pups at six or seven weeks instead of waiting and having vaccinations, microchipping and vet. checks done. How many check the pup's mouths for jaw deformities, deformed palates etc.
Well, truly I don't know, maybe they all do though I have my doubts :-\
Any, that's my twopennorth in the discussion ;)
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Can I just clarify a couple of things?... I am not on trial here, or am I? :roflanim:
Its the internet - of course you are!!! :thumbsup:
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Having read your statement ,if the trial is for hypocrisy then maybe the cap still fits as your original post still stands .how can it be that your any better than any other breeder .? You choose your way of doing things and belive they are the best way,others choose a different path but the end results are healthy happy loved dogs so please get of your 20 hh horse . Sort admins but I hate hypocrisy and self gratification so couldn't bite my tounge !
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:sofa:
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Doganjo, I for one don't doubt your passion for and love of dogs and it's something that I share.
You say you are campaigning for a properly policed registration system for dog breeding. Do you have any details about such a system? Is it a possibility?
I think (I maybe wrong!) that because of your passion you perhaps word things a little 'strongly' shall we say.
The breeding for 'power and money' part of your post, in my opinion, came across as a bit of a sweeping statement and sounded, in my opinion, a bit judgemental on all that breed dogs. Having said that I do know quite a few people who breed solely for the money. They will tell you quite openly that is the reason and genuinely see nothing wrong with it. They would say that animals have to 'earn their keep' and also that it is 'natural'. They are not 'bad' people but bought up to believe that everything has to 'earn its keep'. As an example, one fed a barn cat that arrived at his farm. Cat was very afraid and in poor condition. He fed the cat and cat came into good health. Cat did not produce any kittens. When the vet was visiting the farmer asked him to examine the cat. Vet told him that she had probably been neutered at some point. Farmer was genuinely upset by this and asked if the vet could reverse it! Farmer thought this a really cruel act and against God's way. Some see nothing wrong with litters of dogs/cats etc.
I was asked if my Flattie could be used on a German Shepherd bitch :o. Can you imagine?
Just trying to illustrate the different ways that people look at this and thinking of what kind of system is going to be able to 'police' this. :thinking: How would it work?
I did contact breeders on the KC accredited scheme but was a bit shocked. It wasn't what I thought it would be and I do believe that a couple of people from the scheme were breeding 'just for money', albeit maybe in higher welfare conditions than some.
Interested to hear you ideas.
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I know of someone who bought a toy breed bitch, had her mated, kept a dog and a bitch from the litter and started to breed, putting the dog to his mother and sister twice a year and selling the pups to the gullible public for £800 a go and saw nothing wrong in this. I asked did she not worry about the pups when they left, were they well treated, would she have them back if necessary. No, she said, once they were sold they were no longer her responsibility.
I can't bring myself to even be polite to this person now :( :(
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Unless I'm missing something, there's no correlation between bad behaviours in breeders and whether they are breeding purebred registered pups, designer crossbreeds, or anything else? There are good, careful breeders, who do the health checks, don't breed unless they have a market for the pups, check the potential owners out, take the pups back if there's a problem, etc, etc, and there are terrible breeders, and all shades in between. And there are good breeders of crossbreeds and bad breeders of purebreds as well as the converse.
What I am interested to understand more is whether there is anything more and/or different in terms of planning and managing breeding, and being diligent in terms of finding owners, that breeders of purebreds should do compared to breeders of crossbreeds, and vice versa.
And equally, any different advice that should be given to potential owners of crossbreeds compared to those seeking a purebred pup.
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And just because there is 'a market for the pups' that you plan to breed I don't think that is a guarantee that those pups are going to 'forever' homes. You can't guarantee anything .... that's life. You can 'try' but that is all.
People who show their dogs, and take it very seriously, will often breed a litter. All health checks, pedigrees studied, list of potential buyers etc. They will keep 2 or 3 pups from the litter themselves. Run them on and rehome dogs that don't meet the standard ... the least promising pups for showing. Unless you are lucky you would never get a big winner unless you did that.
Supreme Champion at Crufts, Shargleam Blackcap, was I believe sold by his breeder as a pup and bought back when she spotted his potential as a young dog.
Not everyone does this but it is not unusual at all.
Same in world of working dogs. Young collies maybe run on by the breeder. Some sold then as 'farm' dogs and others kept for trials. Same for gundogs.
Lots of folk who work dogs would soon sell on a pup that didn't come up to standard. Might have all health checks, very often they have waited on a list for that pup but at the end of the day if it doesn't fit the bill it is gone. The breeders know that this will be the case.
Mmmmm .... so for all their health checks and waiting lists are they 'good' breeders?
Not being awkward really :eyelashes: just trying to illustrate that it is not a simple one.
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In my area there are more crossbreeds for sale that any purebred puppies. Fashion I think is the answer for this. Give a pup a fancy name and people queue up to get one. Regardless of price I may add. Think on this, just how many of these pups will make good family dogs. How many will stay in good health and how many will end up in a rescue centre. We have Jake a Jack Russell who is a good all round little dog but then I trained him to not chase the cats, chickens or any other animal we have. He does get the rats and mice if we have them in the buildings. Rascal border Collie who has collie eye so hates the dark but still keen to work, always very keen to try and herd the ponies who I am sure just laugh at him, Isla collie cross lab and a lovely girl but once again trained by me. I have taken my time to make sure my dogs are well mannered, know their place and well exercised. Too many live in homes where they are shut in for hours on end. Not enough thought is given to the dogs welfare. Regardless of breeding a dog left shut in for hours on end day after day will go stir crazy. People need to understand just what they are taking on and its hard to know that if you don't know what both parents were like or their history.
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Off topic, but a friend of ours has been investigating doggy day care as a business option. Another operator told him of one couple who brought their puppy to day care and asked if the center owner could kep the puppy until it was housetrained :innocent:
I just want a wee Corgi :eyelashes:
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Your corgi is out there waiting, Rosemary, be patient :dog:
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I think for a lot of working people doggy day care would be great. Means they could still have the joy of having a dog without the worry of what do we do when working.
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The only point in breeding is if you cannot buy in something better. Other than that it's just sentiment and that's fine if you could have only one pup, but you end up bringing a pile of pointless pups into the world. If you just want a dog for the sake of having one, go rescue one.
I can't stand it when folk breed little pet fluffy, for the sake of it. Why???
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We're lucky, we live on farms or smallholdings, children in our families can learn about nature and life very easily.
I can completely understand why a family would want a litter of pups off their much-loved bitch, kittens from their puss-cat, etc.
It's a sad state of affairs that they must be discouraged, really. But yes, of course, they must, as must those of us who have no specific need to breed. Sigh.
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Sure hope that wummin in Leven is planning a litter of corgis :eyelashes:
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have you asked the Queen, Rosemary? She may be looking for good homes ;D ;D
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I think for a lot of working people doggy day care would be great. Means they could still have the joy of having a dog without the worry of what do we do when working.
Or they could spend their free time helping out at their local rescue centre, exercising, grooming, cleaning out kennels etc?
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*sticks oar in*
I rescue, I foster, I rehome, I do travel runs for rehoming, I do home checks and I have two rescues as permanent dogs (Denzel and Luca).
I also have Misty, a working cocker who is in pup to produce a successor and litter, after which she will be neutered.
Why have I bred her? Because I wanted a Misty line girl for the future, because she is lovely and special and she is worth breeding.
Why don't I get another rescue.... because I don't want another rescue. Because just as I own some new and some secondhand clothes, just because there are more secondhand clothes doesn't mean they are always suitable.
Will Misty's pups end up in a shelter? No, because of their breeding and because I will track them.
Should only pedigree's or pure breds be bred? No, because their is value in diversity. IMHO, the KC hasn't been such a good guardian of dogs health to date.
So, shoot me, it's not inconsistent to breed a dog and do rescue work, it's a question of balance. I love my old, blind, tortured rescues.... but I don't want another one and I have faith in Misty and the Sire's line to produce lovely puppies that i can home and keep.
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Nicely put, KC :thumbsup:
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IMHO, the KC hasn't been such a good guardian of dogs health to date.
Hear, hear!
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My niece lost her collie to cancer. She had a breakdown and my brother went out and bought her another collie puppy. this did help her recover. Now both her and her husband work so Archie spends his days either with my brother, the in-laws or his owners depending on shift work. He is now 6 months old, very sociable. without this family network my niece and her husband could not have a dog. he is well loved by all. My brother who has never been a dog person says he so enjoys his company. I would never have another rescue dog after two bad experiences. this does not make me a bad person just one who could not go through any more heartbreak. I am sure there are lots of working people like my niece who would love a dog. Doggy day care would make this possible.