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Author Topic: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion  (Read 13155 times)

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« on: January 31, 2015, 11:49:08 am »
I know this is an emotive topic, and we have in the past had threads closed down because we couldn't play nice, but there is such a wealth of knowledge and experience on this forum, I hope we can collate some of that into a well-behaved and informative thread.

As an opening statement, I think we can all agree that we abhor puppy farms, indiscriminate matings of any two dogs of whatever breed or breeding, and all acknowledge that the offspring of two purebred dogs of the same breed are more predictable in terms of eventual characteristics than the offspring of two dogs of different breeds - even if both those dogs are purebred specimens of their own breed.

Personally, I very carefully use the term 'purebred' to mean bred pure, ie, all ancestors of the same breed; the term 'pedigree' to mean of known ancestry - which may or may not be a purebred one; 'registered' to mean registered with the Kennel Club and/or breed or activity society. 

Another term we probably need to define is 'health checked'.  Or perhaps we need a raft of terms to describe the different elements.  'Vet checked' to mean the parent has been checked as fit for breeding by a vet.  'All relevant health checks' to mean has had the breed- or type-specific checks for known problems with that breed or type.

One thing I don't know and hope to learn is whether there is a recognised term to mean that not only has the dog or bitch been checked, but its scores/results were good.  I've seen ads which say 'health checked' and then find that the hip score, for instance, is, although reasonable for the breed, a long way from perfect.

Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

SallyintNorth

  • Joined Feb 2011
  • Cornwall
  • Rarely short of an opinion but I mean well
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2015, 11:52:32 am »
On the subject of this being an emotive topic and playing nice... I don't want to create a storm, and I don't want to make work for the lovely folk who run this forum, nor those volunteers who help them, so my plan is that if a post appears to be inflammatory or disrespectful, I will contact the author by PM in the first instance and ask them to kindly rephrase.

If we can't manage to keep it civilised, I'll lock the thread - but hopefully it won't come to that!  (Pretty please!   :eyelashes:)
Don't listen to the money men - they know the price of everything and the value of nothing

Live in a cohousing community with small farm for our own use.  Dairy cow, beef cattle, pigs, sheep for meat and fleece, ducks and hens for eggs, veg and fruit growing

Me

  • Joined Feb 2014
  • Wild West
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2015, 03:22:12 pm »
"we can all agree that we abhor....... indiscriminate matings of any two dogs of whatever breed or breeding"

No, not all! To play Devils advocate for a minute you could argue that back garden indiscriminate breeders are actually keeping more genetic diversity in Pedigree breeds as they are less discriminate and a wider gene pool is maintained vs. discriminate breeders who tend to use a smaller population of trial winners/show winners as sires...

Thats got it off to a good start!

sabrina

  • Joined Nov 2008
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2015, 04:04:49 pm »
I myself are so sick of seeing people selling just about anything and making up a name for it. Not too mention adding just how cute and loveable their pups are. Health checks  should mean eyes, hips etc and be able to show the paperwork that these have been done. How many dogs end up in rescue centre due to having issues. There are lots of purebred dogs that should never have pups but when there is money to be made that is what comes first. I don't know what the answer is but something needs to be done.

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2015, 04:56:36 pm »
On the subject of this being an emotive topic and playing nice... I don't want to create a storm, and I don't want to make work for the lovely folk who run this forum, nor those volunteers who help them, so my plan is that if a post appears to be inflammatory or disrespectful, I will contact the author by PM in the first instance and ask them to kindly rephrase.

If we can't manage to keep it civilised, I'll lock the thread - but hopefully it won't come to that!  (Pretty please!   :eyelashes:)

I'll let you know when my in box starts filling up with 'report to moderator' stuff   :innocent:

Anyway.... Back to the topic in hand... What Sabrina says, totally agree, people see it as a way to make money and to be possibly a little more controversial, unless the dog is bread as a working dog, and there are few breeds that still really deserve that title, then it's all whimsicle fashion, I.e a Dalmatian is a breed but hasn't got any use other than looking nice anymore so what's it bred for? It's not a species that needs protecting or anything?

I.e. What's the point of pedigree (non working breeds )dogs anyway? If it's not for making money? If you want a working collie you wouldn't get a pedigree you'd get an isds dog?

My view is, unless you need a particular breed for a particular job, you should just go to the nearest rescue centre and start there.

Oh and I did do that, I have 2 isds border collies who work & a rescue dog who's grade 7 agility and a rescue lurcher

If we did this as humans to ourselves god knows what the consequences would be.

« Last Edit: January 31, 2015, 05:00:19 pm by Alistair »

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 05:48:51 pm »
But Alistair .... if no one bred Dalmations, they would (depending on your point of view) need protecting wouldn't they?    ;D  So, if no one bred 'pedigrees' we would lose potentially a lot of breeds. Breeds that a lot of people enjoy keeping.

As for these 'designer' dogs, well there is a demand. Most people don't need a 'working' breed these days. If they fancy one of these crosses as their family pet .... why not?  If there is a demand then a price will be set by that demand. This is just the same as with anything else. I'm not sure that this is necessarily a bad thing. Maybe these crosses make better pets than a lot of pure breeds.



in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 06:02:32 pm »
Many of the 'pure' breeds do have health issues. I suppose the first thing you need to know at the beginning of a discussion is how much healthier are the crosses. Is there research/studies where you can look at actual figures? And are you talking about 'first crosses', as Sabrina talks about, the 'designer' dogs or proper 'mutts'?   ;D

Daisys Mum

  • Joined May 2009
  • Scottish Borders
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2015, 06:12:18 pm »
I was always led to believe that a Jack Russell x chihuahua was a mongrel not a Jackahuhua.WhenI was young you had to give cross breeds like this away not charge crazy money.
Anne

ballingall

  • Joined Sep 2008
  • Avonbridge, Falkirk
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2015, 06:55:20 pm »
What is a isds dog Alistair? Forgive me if I'm being stupid......

Beth

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2015, 06:58:33 pm »
Many of the 'pure' breeds do have health issues. I suppose the first thing you need to know at the beginning of a discussion is how much healthier are the crosses. Is there research/studies where you can look at actual figures? And are you talking about 'first crosses', as Sabrina talks about, the 'designer' dogs or proper 'mutts'?   ;D

I know my two crosses, mini a gsx and George the lurcher are a good deal cheaper to insure than my two isds collies, if that's anything to go by

I think what I was trying to get at re existence of pedigrees is that they are there as a fashion item, like a Gucci handbag to some extent, i mean round here it's staffs, up near my mum and dad it's collies and gun dogs, I have other freinds who live in a very wealthy area and they all have labs.. So there's the demand and that's why their bred as a business and asking is that right when there are so many dogs in rescue centres because they're bred to make money and bought as a fad etc etc


Beth isds border collies is basically a working pedigree, so the lines are traced through their ability to be a sheepdog rather than the shape of their eyes and the length of their noses.. If that makes sense

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2015, 07:00:25 pm »
Isds - international sheepdog society btw

in the hills

  • Joined Feb 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2015, 07:26:32 pm »
I sort of know what you mean Alistair but don't think that most 'pedigrees' are bought as a fad or fashion item. Of course some will be but not most. I suppose breeds may go in and out of fashion a bit. For example ... When a Flat Coat first won Crufts it probably brought the breed to peoples attention. More were probably sold because suddenly people were aware of them. My dad bought one after seeing Shargleam Blackcap win that title. Wasn't a fad though. Worked them, showed them and I still own one.

The people that have labs may well have grown up having labs as family dogs and that is why they have them. Nothing to do with being wealthy. They know the breed and like them. Like me with my retrievers.

You have border collies so you have a 'breed'. Were they rescues or bought as pups? Why did you have a breed and not a mongrel. Maybe because they are good at agility. Horses for courses. Other people want a lab for its temperament, ease of training, its looks, etc. Just as important to them as the collies intelligence is to you.

You know I'm not having a moan at you Alistair  :eyelashes: just that this thread could turn into a big bad pedigrees and their breeders thread and think the whole thing is quite complex and it is so easy to judge others.

The Isds is not without its 'doubters' either. I know some farmers, trainers, trial people of collies who feel that the Isds may in the long run do the working collie no favours at all.

verdifish

  • Joined Jan 2013
  • banffshire
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2015, 08:22:33 pm »
I think it maybe boils down to ,people will buy or rescue a dog because they like that particular dog ! Some breeds are much more prone to issues than others just the same as people !!! My dogs are the best in the world in my opinion and no body can say that is not true !!! Arguing the toss over pure bred or not is a complete can of worms and there will never be a right ir wrong answer .I like beer but Suzanne like cider !!! But we live with that as arguing would be pointless !!!

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2015, 08:25:51 pm »
I agree with you to some extent re breeds, I'm just taking a polarised stance for the purpose of the discussion

Re my collies, yes I value their intelligence and they both have jobs, ones a sheepdog and the other is starting her agility career, but the best dog I've ever had re agility is mini and she's a proper mongrel

The problem with this discussion is going to be that generally we are all 'dog people' we are NOT the problem

The problems come from the breeders who see £700 x each pup from each bitch once a year and not the breed itself or if I get a shitzu and a jackrussel I can make a jackzu or whatever and that's a grand a piece etc etc and then there's the mugs who buy them

I used to breed royal python morphs, some of mine where changing hands for thousands of pounds each, then, my killer bee morph line started to stargaze, wobbly head, stare at the sky and then die, this is a genetic condition and I caused it by accident, most of the spider lines suffer from this now and they change hands for around £600 these days, I learnt a lot, stopped breeding them and sold my stock as pets, now I'm breeding common boas, and guess what, they've started giving them silly names now, like two oastels bread together are being called super oastels (pale ones) and the prices are going up as the Nantes are getting sillier, I saw a super oastels possibly het albino carlstrain fir sake the other day for 600 quid, it's rubbish carlstrain means nothing and a super oastels is two oastels bread together which you get from an albino x normal so a super pastel must have albino genes so it isn't possibly anything  :gloomy:

My experience being if you let silly buggers, like me, loose with a breeding stock then your going to nake a lot of money until you realise you've killed your best animals, then you feel bad, really bad and that's what people gave started doing with dogs and I wish they'd stop.

I'm going back to my new project now, I'm trying to grow kittens in jars, bonsai kittens ... They're to go with your micro pigs.... And eventually, when I've purrfected them, I'm going to sell them in your local garden centres

Alistair

  • Moderator
  • Joined Sep 2012
Re: Breed problems, hybrid vigour - discussion
« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2015, 08:27:43 pm »
For oastel read pastel, bloody spell check







Oh and I lied about the kittens

 

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