[Mammyshaz]

All respectable breeders I have bought puppies from have a contract stating I must Never sell the dog on, it is to go back to breeder. The caring breeders of the world want to know offspring they have produced are in good homes. Within a reasonable timescale I'd get my money back but not months down the line for obvious reasons. This is often why breeders have older dogs for sale from time to time. Check your agreement of future pups. I had pages and pages of help, phone numbers, feeding, training and contract of sale re breeding, selling and exporting. It's not to control what I do but to safeguard their pup from unscrupulous hands 

[Cheviot]

Hi,
I don't think your pup thinks he can take advantage of you, I think it is more likely he has picked up on the fact you are very emotionally vulnerable and he is taking on the role of trying to protect you. Trying to get to you when you are separated, attacking Tully, who he sees as a big bad dog who might attack you, I don't really think he is a bad dog, he just finds himself in a situation, he doesn't really know how to deal with.
Regards
Sue

[Ladygrey]

All respectable breeders I have bought puppies from have a contract stating I must Never sell the dog on, it is to go back to breeder. The caring breeders of the world want to know offspring they have produced are in good homes. Within a reasonable timescale I'd get my money back but not months down the line for obvious reasons. This is often why breeders have older dogs for sale from time to time. Check your agreement of future pups. I had pages and pages of help, phone numbers, feeding, training and contract of sale re breeding, selling and exporting. It's not to control what I do but to safeguard their pup from unscrupulous hands 

She did say when we picked Jim up that if we no longer want Jim she would take him back, wich is good and everything but now she is saying we must sell him or give him back to her with no money up front.

We received his pedigree papers, microchip papers and vacci card but nothing else

When my Mum once bred a litter of her shih tzus nearly ten years ago now, she used to do the same, loads of info and pages, health checks etc

Thanks Sue, yes I think you are right, he is not a bad dog, he walks around wagging his tail and looks really sweet, it explains why the breeder said he had not shown any of this behavior before, although we did notice the lack of any toys, chews, food, items low down etc around and dogs were separated to be fed... ho hum, live and learn

[in the hills]

I think you have made your decision so wouldn't wish to try to sway you away from this but you have had this young dog such a short time that I think some of these issues are understandable. No, you wouldn't encounter them with every 10 month old that was rehomed but don't think they are so shocking or dramatic as some posts on here seem to indicate! 

Probably wees as he is insecure, confused and worried. We had a dog that did this for a few months after we took him in ..... one of fathers retired trained gundogs that had only lived in a kennel and needed to readjust to life in a house.

Some young male dogs do show the aggression you talk about. Of course it is a problem and needs work but is not that unusual and even if it can't be completely cured, it can be 'managed', if your dog is obedient. I had a dog like this.

Problems as new dog gets to know Tully could be expected to some extent. Both young, lively males.

Training together is often not easy with two young dogs but once they reach a certain level of obedience it is really useful for lots of exercises that push obedience to a higher level. Early lessons would be separate and some walks too so that you can bond with and give all attention to new dog. I probably wouldn't take new dog far at all for a few weeks because you don't really know him or him you.

Some young dogs would fall out over toys. Retrievers have a strong desire to carry/own that toy .... their retrieving instinct. I wouldn't have toys lying around in the early days. And food/treats can be an issue for lots of dogs. My neighbour says his collies would kill each other over their food.

You wouldn't expect to leave to young males that didn't know each other alone and unattended.



My father found in his experience that male goldens of working line did tend to be a bit more dominant than other retrievers. Is he showing aggression towards you if corrected? This maybe more of an issue.

Sorry, just wanted to give a different perspective. Did you say he had been with you 4 days? It's nothing and many of the problems you talk about are not that unusual. In my opinion aggression towards you would be different but the other things not that uncommon. He is like a teenager plopped from one home into another home with new parents and another teenager to get to know. Seen a lot of the problems you talk about and no they are not desirable and not easy but don't think he is some 'demon' dog as some seem to say.

Of course if he really isn't for you then his previous owner should have him back .... especially seeing that she seems to be a 'breeder'.

Sorry Ladygrey  that Jim is not working out for you.

Cross posted with Cheviot

[Me]

The protection idea is lovely, but a little bit of a misguided romantic notion very often. I don't think I've seen a case where an owner said (usually she and with pride) that the dog was protective of them against possible aggressors when I agreed with their assessment of what was going on.

When I have seen similar behaviour it seems motivated more by control of your movements and of those around you and possession of you as an object (similar to aggression shown over a bone or toy). My German Shepherd bitch naturally showed similar and would no doubt have grown into a dangerous unpredictable snarling beast if I had fostered this behaviour in her. As it is she is a steady and predictable dog who turns into a snarling beast only when required, generally when transit van drivers appear uninvited. 

Its hard to give advice over the internet, I do know of a trainer in Ingerland I can PM you if you like. For now you need to firmly take control of all situations conspicuously in the dogs mind whatever you decide to do.

[Alistair]

If it where me, and it isn't, it's you I'd do the following...

Every day, at least 2 10m min sessions - no more than 10 mins though on basics... And on his own

Sit
Stay
And leave it commands

Loads of exercise, as much as you can, tire him out .. Get rid of the energy, that'll calm him down, a tired dog is a happy dog

Walks on his own with you, go to a field with him on a lead, walk with him as soon as he pulls turn round, don't stop, just walk in a different direction holding the lead, in a bout 10mins he'll be confused and start following you because he can't do anything else, and keep doing this everytime he pulls

If you do walk the two together muzzle him with a basket muzzle, you'll feel calmer and this will probably transfer to the dogs, even keep him on a lead for now

Most importantly don't bother punishing the bad behaviour - it doesn't work, his brain is already doing something else, ignore him, turn your back on him, only reward the good behaviour, be consistent

Get his knackers cut off by the vet

It'll take time and dedication, if you can't give it, take him back, that's my advice fwiw

[Fleecewife]

Good advice Alistair


I feel so sorry for this puppy.  He sounds as if he's had a confusing life to date, perhaps having gone into an unsuitable home previously, and now coming to you when, as you say:

<<And also yes, I dont want him as there are soooo many nice dogs out there looking for a home, also would never have paid that much money for a dog with issues.....>>

He needs to go into a household with no other dogs and people who can give him all the love, time and training he needs.  I don't think the breeder will take care with selling him again, and he'll be destined eventually to being destroyed for lack of love and training which will continue to worsen his behaviour.
You should definitely not keep him, but please ask the breed rescue if they can help in this horrible situation. You're not going to get your money back from the breeder, so it's time to cut your losses and let the puppy have a chance at a good life.

It sounds as if you bought the puppy too soon after the loss of your previous dog, without the commitment to train and love this little chap.  Losing a dog always takes time to get over, even if you think it won't.  Give yourself time to get over him, and don't get another dog too soon.  Take your time choosing another dog, or even just keep the one for now.  He will settle down more quickly than you will.

I know I'm being harsh, but I think it's time to put this new puppy's welfare first, and hand him over to the Retriever Rescue for rehoming somewhere suitable, no other pets, no children.

[Old Shep]

Sorry you're having problems.

Is he actually attacking or just playing rough?  Have there been any puncture wounds or is it just mouthing?  Was he a singleton?  I'm not certain that you are interpreting what's happening correctly.  He could of course be a deranged dog from what you write, or he could just be misunderstood.  Leaning on you is not dominant its looking for security, weeing is submissive!

I feel sad that you have lost your other dog but I also feel very very sad for this pup.  If you are up for a learning experience and have the time and commitment to this pup I'm sure he'd come around with some positive training, not outdated dominance methods. If not then he'd be best going back to the breeder.  As others have suggested perhaps in your emotional state you have taken on another dog too early and with insufficient preparation, and expecting him to be fully trained when he's still a pup.  How much money you paid is irrelevant.

If you do take on another dog in the future this is a very good read on starting off on the right foot
https://www.localbark.com/bark-all-about-it/2015/01/5-common-mistakes-adopters-make-when-bringing-home-new-dog/

[Marches Farmer]

Do you have any paperwork for the purchase?  If so and you return him I advise photocopying it, adding a note saying something like "Returned to Mrs X" and the date, with a phrase like "Not fit for purpose due to extreme aggression - original purchase price of £X to be refunded" and photocopy that for your records and try to get the seller to sign and date it.  If you return him and the purchase price isn't refunded you may be able to claim it back through the small claims court.  Try to record some of the aggressive acts - film or photo - to back it up. 

[SallyintNorth]

I feel so sorry for you, Ladygrey.      Losing your wonderful Laddie, then trying to get another companion for Tully, being sensible and not getting a brand new pup, going to a registered breeder - and ending up here.   

It's a horrid situation you are in, and because of the very recent trauma of losing Laddie, it's quite understandable that you are overwhelmed. 

So first of all, don't blame yourself.  In hindsight, it hasn't been your best decision, but you did what you did for good reasons, and went about it in what seemed at the time to be a responsible manner.  It could have turned out really well.

I am sure you would be able to get this dog to settle and adjust with the time and effort he seems to need.  And I agree, there is a strong likelihood he's been homed and returned at least once before, perhaps more.  So hardly surprising the poor fella is confused and 'acting up'.  And he may well be picking up on your own grief and stress too, yes, similarly from Tully.

If you aren't able to devote that time and energy to him - and feel confident of achieving a good outcome, because if you are not confident, it's unlikely to work out, sadly - then I do agree it's probably best to either return or rehome him.

Of course you can't just sell him on, none of us would do that in these circumstances. 

If he goes back to the breeder, you may or may not get some of the money back.  If she's got a Facebook page, presumeably she can't risk screwing you completely...    But the poor dog is unlikely to find the right home while the breeder is misrepresenting him so.

So I would, if you can do it, take him to the breed rescue or the Dogs' Trust.  Either will work with him and make sure he goes to suitable forever home, with support to ensure it all works out for him and the new owner.  And it's just possible, especially if you have a Dogs' Trust or a breed rescue person nearby to you, they may be able to work with you to get him settled with you - certainly worth discussing, I'd have thought.

[Alistair]

Oh and just so as you know the basis for all 'pack training' training ideas is based on the behaviour of wolves not dogs, and not just that, the pack it is based on was not a natural pack in the wild, it was a manufactured group of individuals from different packs and places in captivity, basically having now been debunked

Dogs are basically scavengers, not hunters, and opportunistic individuals rather than true pack hunters, so bear that in mind when you see your dogs together, his aggression, leaning etc is undoubtably, like others have said, insecurity, nothing more, his problem seems to stem from lack of care from the original breeder, if he's overweight and pulling on the lead etc he's probably never been exercised or socialised - that's why I'd put a basket muzzle on him, it doesn't restrict the dogs breathing, barking etc (greyhounds race in them) but it'll stop him escalating any situation into a proper fight and allow him to learn the niceties if being a dog

[sabrina]

I do feel for you. From what I have read this pup needs a very strong handler who can take control. I think he would be better in a working home rather than a pet one. Lots of training to keep his mind busy. You do not need all this grief. If you still feel he is too much do both of you a favour and rehome. As he is bred from working parents that should help, he is young enough. Try an add in a shooting mag or something like that. I have worked quite a bit with labs and there is quite a difference from a family bred one to a working bred pup.

[Bex]

So sorry for you, and this mixed up pup.

IMHO, if you can afford to lose the money (it sounds like you might have a hard time getting it back anyway!), then take him to a rescue (breed specific if you can) and explain the situation. I imagine they'll be very glad you brought him to them rather than risk him going to an unsuitable home and maybe doing some serious damage in the future. It sounds to me like he's not been socialised and will need to be rehomed on his own. I have found that poor socialisation as a puppy is very hard to fix in later life.

I would then give yourself a bit more time to grieve and Tully some time to get over this experience with a new dog.

If you are not looking for a working dog but a pet, then can I reccomend looking at a rescue dog rather than a new puppy when you do feel like trying again.
When we lost our Kira dog a couple of years ago we thought we'd get a puppy to keep our other dog company. We thought she'd apreciate having a more active dog around and that their bond would be better if it started young. They got on fine and there was no agression, but the puppy turned out to be quite highly strung and very clingy with me. They did like to play together but the new one would rather be curled up on top of me than with her! I felt quite bad as I had a great relationship with her and felt the new puppy was taking me away somewhat.
Conversly the last rescue dog I had was the most calm, friendly, sweet natured dog I've ever met let alone owned. We got her from a rescue at about 9 months old and we sadly lost her to cancer at about 8 years. I cannot express how special this dog was!
A rescue will always let you have a trial period, you can take Tully there to meet any prospective dogs and see how they get on before taking them home and you'll have much more information about the dogs before commiting. Plus you get that warm fuzzy feeling of helping a dog in need!
Take it from me, there are some amazing dogs in rescues.

 

[in the hills]

In my opinion it would be a big mistake to advertise this pup in a shooting mag. I think LG said that it was mix of show/working lines. It may be totally unsuitable as a working dog and it would then be passed on again.

That said if the pup has working ability it would be good to use this in training, once obedience and problems are on the way to being sorted.

Just thought, my Flattie 'leans' on me. In his case it is certainly not dominant behaviour. Just wants to be really close to you and will do it if he thinks he might be left. If he is left he settles straight away and has never been a problem.

I think it is difficult to 'guess' at the reason for behaviours without seeing the dog.

[Oopsiboughtasheep]

I'm so sorry you are having such a difficult time on top of your sadness.
I have PM'd you.