[Ladygrey]

Ok.... so here goes

I lost my darling little Laddie over Christmas, he wasnt yet ten, he had gone done rapidly over the last few weeks, I had tried everything including homeopathic things and radionics when the vets had no clue any more, Its not that I believed in them but I wanted to try everything, I told Laddie I would fix him and I couldnt

He started throwing up two days after christmas, I rushed him to the vets and Laddie died in my arms in the carpark 

Words cannot describe but I cant say much more about Laddie right now

In the mean time, Tully is missing him greatly, even though we did show Laddie to Tully so that he understood and didnt wander where Laddie had gone or try and look for him, he understands and is just sad and lonely

We decided to try and look for another dog, a puppy being ideal but not a very young puppy, my OH didnt want a collie as he wanted something bigger and stronger and less clever....

We found an advert for a golden retriever puppy 10 months old and went to go and see him, he seemed lovely at the ladies house and we met the puppies mum as he was home bred, reason for sale was that the husband was too ill to walk the puppy, well we ended up bringing Jim home that evening (sunday evening) after paying a good amount of money, we should have asked for a trial period....

Well.... as soon as he settled in on monday/tuesday he has turned into the devils dog, maybe I have it easy having a well behaved collie but this is something else

Firstly for the mild stuff, he counter surfs and will snatch and eat anything off the counters and tables, if I say anything to him whilst he is doing this he wee's, if I hold his collar then he wee's, he is NOT fully house trained and he consumes paper, cardboard, socks and clothing, ripping it up and swallowing

Then there are the aggression issues, he is EXTREMELY dominant, follwing me around and leaning into me, when he does this he stares at Tully and growls and shows his teeth, if Tully doesnt leave then he may or may not attack Tully, teeth claws the lot, Tully runs away and he may bite Tully on the back or head or neck, very scary!
He guards food and rawhide, growling over it and will attack Tully if Tully comes into the room, he does not like it if I talk to Tully or give Tully attention.
On dog walks he pulls like a train and so I bought him a halti and he still pulls, he weighs 30kilo! and my wrist is now sprained, he attacked a doberman puppy who ran up to him yesterday and tried to eat a shih tzu, today he attacked Tully in the park for walking too close to his toy! and then went for the neck of a labrador that ran up to say hello.....
when he attacks he puts his all into it, holding tail up and stiff and straight like a stick, has his head held up high and ears forwards and he goes for the neck and head of the dog, snarling and biting

In between all of this he walks around looking like an angelic sweet puppy, I have adopted the "pack rules" by Jan Fennel which seems to have helped in the house but not outside of it

I would like to take Jim back and get my money back, as although he may be fixable as he is only 10months old, I didnt want to buy a dog with issues and me and Tully are finding this too hard, I just burst into tears two days ago when I had to literally beat Jim off Tully

So therefor I have contacted the previous owner, she has said that this is all new and Jim never has done anything like this before.... could this be possible? and that she is happy to take Jim back but no longer has the money as she spent it all, she can possibly pay me back a little each month into a bank account 

So.... what would everyone else do? do I risk that she may not give me my money and just give Jim back?

or perhaps its too late and I have to keep Jim, is a 10 month old overweight puppy fixable? not that I fancy fixing a puppy anyway as he is ruining my walks etc with Tully

he is already better in the house since I started ignoring him for ten mins when I even walk from room to room let alone in the door and eating some toast before putting his bowl down etc

A crate does not work, I put him inside one whilst I went out for 2 hours, came back and he has bent all of the metal like hulk and eaten his way out

Its my fault completely! I have learnt from my mistakes, why on earth did I not ask for a trial period I will never know, we went for a golden as they are easy dogs with no issues.....

[nutterly_uts]

How long have you had him? Just a couple of weeks?

He sounds like you need to contact a force free behaviourist for help. He's still only a baby and so very much still "fixable" to an extent but he is going to need a LOT of work. I honestly wouldn't bother sending him back because I doubt these are all new issues, and if he's really not working out then Golden Retriever rescue may be your best option and write off the money spent on him.

I'm not sure Jan Fennell will be much use - Goldies and BCs think VERY differently and I'd presume that trying to manage a Goldie using a BC guru won't work..

Edit

A crate isn't an instant thing and you'll need to put in the ground work for him to be happy to be left in one - the breaking out sounds like separation anxiety, and the clinginess to you may be linked too - he's been in one home with his mum and familiar people all his life and for a lot longer than the usual sort of puppy so you have to take that into account too. He probably missed out on a lot of his vital early socialisation going places without his mum and that would def be a factor too. 

[nutterly_uts]

Also, don't leave him alone with Tully - different rooms or take one with you. You'll also have a lot more success if you aim to tire out his brain with lots of fun learning than trying to take him on walks, especially while you settle him in (and it can take weeks if not months for a dog to properly settle) and work on his behaviours

[Ladygrey]

How long have you had him? Just a couple of weeks?

He sounds like you need to contact a force free behaviourist for help. He's still only a baby and so very much still "fixable" to an extent but he is going to need a LOT of work. I honestly wouldn't bother sending him back because I doubt these are all new issues, and if he's really not working out then Golden Retriever rescue may be your best option and write off the money spent on him.

I'm not sure Jan Fennell will be much use - Goldies and BCs think VERY differently and I'd presume that trying to manage a Goldie using a BC guru won't work..

Edit

A crate isn't an instant thing and you'll need to put in the ground work for him to be happy to be left in one - the breaking out sounds like separation anxiety, and the clinginess to you may be linked too - he's been in one home with his mum and familiar people all his life and for a lot longer than the usual sort of puppy so you have to take that into account too. He probably missed out on a lot of his vital early socialisation going places without his mum and that would def be a factor too.

Have had him since sunday night, so four days!

I think some of her things work for all dogs, but I will bear what you said in mind

Yes I do not want to leave him with Tully, so I shut them in different rooms, but when I came home he had attacked the door between him and tully, stripping the wood and eating the floor, when I opened it he then flew at Tully, I have a rented house and so cannot have him doing this, if I leave him with a rawhide bone or chew then he attacks the door even more because he wants to eat Tully

So next time I put him in a crate as he sleeps in one at night very well and he was crate trained at his previous house, he bent the metal and broke out....

Surely separation anxiety is just that he is worried that "his" pack is gone and not that he is missing his pack leaders?

Not sure how to teach him anything at the moment, will have to figure that one out, perhaps I can wait until summer and sit him in a swimming pool to teach him stuff... or stock up on alot of absorbent stuff 

either way its pretty annoying as my training with Tully has had to be put on hold as I cant lock jim away and he doesnt want me to talk to Tully...

He is a pedigree dog and his papers say he is a mix of show lines and some working lines

[NicandChic]

Poor love, he won't have a clue what's going on, who you are, where he fits in, he's at a funny age finding his way and will need lots of training, socialising & understanding. I'd start at the very beginning as if you've brought home a new pup, careful supervised positive interactions with your older dog, quiet walks with no other dogs about - with your other dog if possible (you say he pulls, so I'd start with walking in the garden - basic lead training etc) no toys or treats if he's guarding unless he's on his own, lots of good info on guarding - I'm not into 'pack theory' I prefer positive reward training, Victoria Stilwell has a good website https://positively.com/dog-behavior/aggression/resource-guarding/ I'd defo get back to crate training we find it fab for toilet training, somewhere safe, all our lot chose so sleep in their crates, it's their safe place, we also use them to feed in!

We've 4 dogs, our recent addition an 8 week cocker pup really upset our lurcher, I was in tears thinking 'what the hell have I done'....3 months later the pup Heidi & Ellie the lurcher are bestest friends, the group has changed slightly but all are happy! (I don't give them treats together as I know what would happen.)

I hope you can work things out.

[Rosemary]

Some dogs are just nuts. I wouldn't rule out having him put to sleep. He sounds dangerous - if he was mine, I'd be living on my nerves, for me and my other dog. I guess I'll get jumped on for this but there are lots of nice dogs out there looking for a home. Would you EVER trust him with childern or other folk's dogs?

[Ladygrey]

Some dogs are just nuts. I wouldn't rule out having him put to sleep. He sounds dangerous - if he was mine, I'd be living on my nerves, for me and my other dog. I guess I'll get jumped on for this but there are lots of nice dogs out there looking for a home. Would you EVER trust him with childern or other folk's dogs?

I wouldnt trust him no, thats why I want to give him back to the owner as supposedly he was perfectly behaved at hers, he is fine most of the time, walking around and wagging his tail

And also yes, I dont want him as there are soooo many nice dogs out there looking for a home, also would never have paid that much money for a dog with issues.....

edit, he is 100% with people, very loving dog, came from a household with visiting young children etc, he just seems to want to dominate other dogs

[Ladygrey]

Poor love, he won't have a clue what's going on, who you are, where he fits in, he's at a funny age finding his way and will need lots of training, socialising & understanding. I'd start at the very beginning as if you've brought home a new pup, careful supervised positive interactions with your older dog, quiet walks with no other dogs about - with your other dog if possible (you say he pulls, so I'd start with walking in the garden - basic lead training etc) no toys or treats if he's guarding unless he's on his own, lots of good info on guarding - I'm not into 'pack theory' I prefer positive reward training, Victoria Stilwell has a good website https://positively.com/dog-behavior/aggression/resource-guarding/ I'd defo get back to crate training we find it fab for toilet training, somewhere safe, all our lot chose so sleep in their crates, it's their safe place, we also use them to feed in!

We've 4 dogs, our recent addition an 8 week cocker pup really upset our lurcher, I was in tears thinking 'what the hell have I done'....3 months later the pup Heidi & Ellie the lurcher are bestest friends, the group has changed slightly but all are happy! (I don't give them treats together as I know what would happen.)

I hope you can work things out.

Thankyou very very much! will go and look at that website, I know I once bought one of her books, will have to try and find it

Im not sure how to go back to crate training seeing as he doesnt stay in the crate.....

If there are no toys or treats around then he is much much better and almost a nice dog, so I need to start at this level and keep it like that for a few weeks, (if we keep him)
Other dog is only 18 months old, so they are both full of beans!

[landroverroy]

 I agree entirely with what Rosemary says.
All puppies have to cope with new owners and companions when they are sold, and most don't behave like that.
I also don't believe he's been with his breeders all his life. It would seem a bit strange that the only one they've kept is the one with serious problems. More likely that they've sold him, maybe several times, before and make some more money each time he is returned, then resold. Nice little earner.
How would you feel if, in an unguarded moment he actually killed Tully? With the best will in the world you are likely to be unexpectedly distracted some time when you least expect it - someone coming to the door, the phone ringing, something burning on the stove. A few seconds is all it will take.....
You've already seen how he attacks other people's dogs. The animal is like a ticking time bomb.   

[Ladygrey]

I agree entirely with what Rosemary says.
All puppies have to cope with new owners and companions when they are sold, and most don't behave like that.
I also don't believe he's been with his breeders all his life. It would seem a bit strange that the only one they've kept is the one with serious problems. More likely that they've sold him, maybe several times, before and make some more money each time he is returned, then resold. Nice little earner.
How would you feel if, in an unguarded moment he actually killed Tully? With the best will in the world you are likely to be unexpectedly distracted some time when you least expect it - someone coming to the door, the phone ringing, something burning on the stove. A few seconds is all it will take.....
You've already seen how he attacks other people's dogs. The animal is like a ticking time bomb.

She said they decided to keep him from the litter, but after a little facebook stalking on my part  it looks like he was left and she was trying to sell him up until 12 weeks still, and then decided to keep him after he still wasnt sold at 12 weeks, but yes perhaps he was sold after that!

Yes I couldnt live with myself if he hurt Tully, he is 30kgs and only 10 months old so will be a big dog, although he is fat

She is happy to take him back, so I think it would be best if we took him back and just fingers crossed she gives our money back 
Perhaps he would be trainable but at this moment I dont think I am the right person to do this, next time I think I younger puppy is better from a more reputable source

[gapcap]

Poor puppy, for his sake wouldnt it be better to contact goldie rescue for rehoming into s suitable experienced  home for him.

[bigchicken]

Take the dog back sorry not fit for purpose and you should get a full money refund. I have a friend who had a lab who from very young age 12 weeks was aggressive with any strangers human or dog, the dog was just a bad un and after a couple of years they had to get her put down as they were constantly on there guard with the dog and I'm afraid that may be what you will be like. Sorry if this reads like a negative post but these is my thoughts.

[farmvet]

Very sorry to hear of the loss of your obviously much loved laddie.
I'm afraid i agree with the others here & would return the pup. If you still have the advert Trading standards may be able to help if you think he was missold.
 Does he have good bite inhibition or does he do damage when he attacks? By this age it is too late to teach bite inhibition and if he his harming then its probably a one way ticket before he does serious damage later in life.  The other issues can all be resolved, but be honest, do you really want to put in months of effort & change you relationship with your other dog. Somethings are just not meant to be and its no disgrace to give up on him.
If you do keep him have a look at  http://www.learntotalkdog.com/about-learn-to-talk-dog/ about signals of preemptive aggresion plus some good fact sheets on her other site  thinkdog & clever dog company. The association of pet behaviour counsellors has good trainers too.
A muzzle may help but can just stress retrieving breed out even more. Sometimes continually stuffing a toy in their mouth is better - its hard to be fierce carrying a pink teddy...

[Cheviot]

Hi,
Just a thought, but perhaps it was just too soon to get another dog, as you had just lost your most special friend, and were probably feeling really guilty about not being able to fix him. I think maybe the puppy is picking up on the fact that you are still grieving. Rehome the pup, give yourself time to grieve, and get another dog when your mind is in a better place.
Regards
Sue

[Ladygrey]

Thankyou all for you replies, much appreciated

The breeder has now offered us instead of money to have another puppy from her in the future
or has told us to sell Jim ourselves or
we can give Jim back and she says she can pay us the money back little by little over a few months

I wouldnt be able to sell Jim as I couldnt do that to someone else, and I dont think I want a puppy from her so we will risk loosing our money and take Jim back tomorrow

I think yes perhaps it was too soon for both Tully and I to get another dog and the new dog can sense that, Tully is a quiet and reserved dog and so am I, so I think a dog can think he can try and get away with too much

Perhaps I will try and get a puppy in the summer, from health tested parents and a good breeder etc like Tully

Is it possible for me to get it in writing that she will pay the money back? how would I do this? or wouldnt this count for anything anyway as it wouldnt be legally binding?