[SallyintNorth]

I really wouldn't use a meat tup for their first time, I really wouldn't.  After that, ok - although I'd go something a bit larger than primitive and not as meaty as a Beltex for the 2nd time too.  Zwarty would probably be fine for the 2nd time.  Blackie would probably be fine too - although not such a useful lamb

Issues include size.  Although the primitives mostly do have good wide pelvises, a gimmer isn't as opened up as an experienced ewe .  And it'll be your first time too!

And, possibly even more important than size, is liveliness of lamb.  A Shetland x lamb will be up and around to the milk bar very quickly, and will persist even if Mum is fidgeting and skipping about wearing a started and slightly indignant expression.   A lot of Beltex breeders use a Shetland tup on their first-time Beltex ewes for this very reason

If you can get a Manx or Shetland tup lamb to use then eat, I'd do that.  (Oh, and Shetland x Manx can be a wonderful fleece!  )

[shygirl]

if you cant catch them, id consider easy lambing as priority, as they last thing you want is a problem birth and the ewe is taking flight over the hill.

[Womble]

Thanks all,  Not what I was hoping to hear, but I'm very grateful for the straightforward advice. I'm off to have another look at the fencing to see what I need to do to make it Shetland tup-proof!

[shep53]

May I ask have you thought about  future   lambings , not next year as both breeds need carefull feeding for the first lamb but then you will have large sheep that do well on good grass  and maybe lots of feed inputs  and small primitive that need mediocre grass and very little feed inputs

[Womble]

Shep53, I think we'll end up only keeping one or the other breed in the end. The Manxs have been in my extended family for ages, so at the time at least they seemed like the natural breed to start with. The Zwartbles were just what Mrs Womble liked the look of, and provide a good contrast so we can eventually choose what to do in the long run.

Our holding is divided into several small fields, so we can keep them separate when required. We had thought we'd rotate the grazing with the Zwartbles getting first go, followed by the Manxs, but we'll have to see how things pan out.....

[Fleecewife]

Womble - I think you got your Manx from an aunt or similar.  Is that right?  I'd forgotten.  Surely the obvious thing to do is to seek her advice on how to tame up your sheep?  I think it puts a whole different light on your problem and I'd like to change my vote    With the previous owner on hand to give advice, even from a distance, I think you have a good chance of learning about the breed and learning the correct techniques for handling them.  All change    It's worth pursuing 

[shygirl]

its amazing what a effect an empty belly in the winter will have on their view of you if you are carrying their food. it takes time to create a bond if they are skittish. hopefully you dont have a flighty ringleader who will teach them to run away - we solved this problem by using a tame sheep  as they would follow him.

[Womble]

OK, we might be getting somewhere, albeit slowly. The Manxs will now eat from a trough as long as I'm the other side of a fence and at least 10m away. In contrast, I had to stop strimming last night because the zwartbles thought I was noisily scattering dock leaves for them to eat and I didn't want one of them to lose a leg!

Fleecewife - I've now spoken to my Aunt (tricky just now as my Uncle is very unwell - that's why I tried the forum first). She couldn't suggest anything for taming them apart from patience and not chasing them about. She has used a Suffolk tup on first time Manxs before and can't recall any lambing problems. However, she couldn't really advise as apart from that she's always bred pure.

I'm still really nervous about having a horny Shetlander about the place in case he escapes and causes havoc. Sally - what tup do you use on your Manxs then? Do you think a Blackface would be a mistake for first time ewes? That would solve the neighbour problem since it would be his tup, but would hopefully lamb easier than a pure commercial?

Thanks!

[SallyintNorth]

Hi Womble  .  Sounds like you are making progress 

My Manxes were bought as gimmers; one had lambed before, the other hadn't.  I put them to a Shetland (sent them away to one) the first time, all fine, tiny lambs that grew well. This time they went to our homebred tup lamb; he was 1/2 Shetland, 1/4 Charollais, 1/8 Beltex, 1/16 Blue-faced Leicester, 1/16 Swaledale.  So partway between a Shetland and a commercial.  All absolutely fine, cracking lambs, no problems, growing well.

In your circs, if you can't find a primitive to send them to for tupping, or a primitive tup lamb to use then eat, then yes the Blackie would probably be a good compromise.  Not too large a lamb for them, no problem with the neighbours.

You will have to eat all the offspring yourselves, and I doubt if the fleeces will be interesting.  But your girls will know their job, and so will you , for next time. 

[Womble]

OK, time for a wee update  .

This is one rare breed that might be about to get a whole lot rarer very shortly!

It's time for fluke drenching, so I need to pen them up for that.  Can I?  Can I heck. After two days of patient  but pointless bucket shaking, I rigged up a Wallace and Gromit contraption that enabled me to hide behind a woodpile 50m away from the pen and shut the door using a rope when they weren't looking.

Unfortunately I couldn't close the gate quick enough, and two escaped. They are now blowing raspberries at me from as far away as possible. Of the two I penned, one went so beserk that she cut her leg open on something in the pen and I've had to bandage her up.

So, hours of effort, two dosed and two who are now wise to the whole thing.

Fed up  .

[Rosemary]

Do you know anyone with a dog? Would that help?

[Womble]

Hmmm, our neighbour has a collie, but having seen it in action I don't think that'll work. You know, "FOR F**K's SAKE FLOSS!" seems a strange name for a dog, but he keeps shouting it loudly enough..... 

Of course if you are in Stirlingshire and fancy a training challenge for your dog, do get in touch!! 

[SallyintNorth]

If it's a dog, it needs to be one that's wise to primitive sheep (and/or a handler that is, and a very obedient dog ) - you can't push them the way you can a less flighty type, they won't take 1/10th the pressure a commercial sheep will.   And frankly, if they want to be away, they'll be away.

They need to feel safe, David - and it's going to take a little time...

Can you feed them a little in a trough every day?  Get them more used to you being near them?  And then cake them in the pen, etc...

Once you have 'em penned, get 'em penned tight asap, so they don't have time and space to jump out.  Drench them swiftly and confidently, do anything else you need, and let them out as soon as practicable.

It does get easier as they get more used to you, promise.

I mostly keep my new primitive-type sheep in a stable for a few days to a week, getting caked, hayed and watered twice a day, so they get used to me being a friendly provider.  They don't get to be outside until they are relaxed about me being in the stable with them.  Then, if poss, they go in the home paddock with some tame sheep, getting caked and witnessing the occasional random digestive biscuitting

[Womble]

Hmmm, I think that's maybe where I went wrong.

We let our biggest field to our neighbour's tups for the past couple of months, but that meant my "feeding the Manxs in the pen" regime had to stop, and they swiftly became wild again.

He moved his tups out on Saturday, so I've been trying since then to get them in the pen to drench them. The problem is, having used my one shot and failed, I think it's going to be a while before they trust me again.

I'll keep at it, but this is really difficult, not to mention time consuming!

BTW I managed to dose all the Zwartbles out in the field in five minutes. I Just walked up to them, put one hand under their chin and said 'open wide'. It's the contrast between them and the Manxs that smarts somewhat - I now know just how easy it could be if they would just cooperate and stop seeing me as a prey animal!

Happy to share my trials and tribulations if that helps others further along the line of course.

[ThomasR]

I am in the same sort of boat as you my hebs want nothing to do with me and my Zwartbles come to say hi they they see anything, one even followed me into the house when I was moving them. The closest I have got to my hebs is 10m but when I started it used to be more like 40m. The way forward for me was digestive biscuits once they eventually resized what is for offer they came running but no closer than 10m where I then had to hide behind the gate for them to eat. I have not found any bulling from the hebs be caused they are horned but that is because a hebs tried to have a go at them but soon resized that they where out numbered at that time 7:1 where they no wait until the Zwartbles are done or I use two troughs as they are scared of the zeds. Hope this helps and remember the way forwards is digestives.