Agri Vehicles Insurance from Greenlands

Author Topic: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove  (Read 51122 times)

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #30 on: July 22, 2013, 04:29:09 pm »

Annie - I'd check that one carefully if I were you. Building control will be £125, and might ask you a lot of awkward questions, whereas a HETAS inspector will know exactly what he's looking for right from the start. If you do go down the building control route, you'll need to ask for a "Completion Certificate Where No Warrant Was Obtained".

By the way, here's the conversation I've just had with Building Standards:

W: "I'd like to install a solid fuel stove, and I'd like to know what information you require"
BS: "We don't normally get involved in that sort of thing, since there's nothing really to see."
W: "Yes, but I'm doing it as a DIY job, so I'll need sign off"
BS: "OK, you're within your rights to do that {NB, Scotland only}. We just need a standard building warrant application pack, along with design details for the hearth and stove, the relevant clearances and a floor plan."
W: "Will you need to come out and inspect the job first?"
BS: "That's very unlikely. Depending on the information you send us, we'll probably just issue the warrant and then come and inspect the installation once it is complete".

So, I'm going to put together a pack and send it through with my cheque for £100........ wish me luck good people of TAS!  :fc:
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2013, 06:29:30 pm »
So if I get a HETAS guy for £150, do I not then need a BW? I am totally confused, and  I think I am going to cry.  :'( :'( :'(

Would the surveyor employed by the shop where I bought the stove be a HETAS engineer?
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

happygolucky

  • Joined Jan 2012
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2013, 06:48:05 pm »
Good luck the pair of  you, we want eventually to put a wood burning stove in a shed :innocent: , I know loads of people who do have them in sheds so I want to copy them :eyelashes: , no actually I think it would be rather cute, the one thing I find strange I could have my chimanea going outside a shed but need planning permission for one inside!

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2013, 07:41:05 pm »
Good luck the pair of  you, we want eventually to put a wood burning stove in a shed :innocent: , I know loads of people who do have them in sheds so I want to copy them :eyelashes: , no actually I think it would be rather cute, the one thing I find strange I could have my chimanea going outside a shed but need planning permission for one inside!
I guess the difference is the carbon monoxide will disperse outside but kill you inside... :farmer:
But done right no reason it won't work, even canal barges and gypsy wagons have them, so a shed should be perfectly doable.

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2013, 10:12:03 pm »
So if I get a HETAS guy for £150, do I not then need a BW? I am totally confused, and  I think I am going to cry.  :'( :'( :'(

No, don't cry!  Assuming the surveyor from the stove shop is a HETAS engineer, he will come, inspect the installation, give you a sign off certificate and relieve you of £150. There is no need then to involve building control at all.

Quote
Would the surveyor employed by the shop where I bought the stove be a HETAS engineer?

You'd need to check, but I'd assume so, otherwise he has no business doing inspections!
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2013, 11:21:01 pm »
He's given me a metal tag to attach somewhere but I can't remember where - the chap who installed it has to fill in the details, will be seeing him in the next day or so.  Surveyor from shop said he could sign off what he could see and that I shoudl ask Roy to give me a certificate too. That's no problem as he followed their instructions to the letter.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2013, 10:09:16 pm »
OK, this is a weird curve-ball, but here goes!

I spoke to the place we'll probably be buying the stove from today, but said "no mad rush, since I still need to apply for the building warrant".  His reply knocked me back a bit: "You don't normally need one for Scotland you know, at least as far as I'm aware" This chap runs a stove shop, so I figured he ought to know! In fact, the only difference between him and the others I've spoken to is that he knew this was a supply only deal, and hence had nothing to gain by quoting me for the installation too.

So I've checked it out, and to my surprise, this is what I found deep in the furthest corners of the Scottish building regs (NB, this does not apply to England!!):

Quote from: Scottish Building Regs 0.5.2, Schedule 3
The following works do not require a warrant:

6. Any work associated with a combustion appliance installation or other part of a heating installation, not being work of types 7 or 8 below. ....Except........  Any work associated with a solid fuel appliance having an output rating more than 50 kW, an oil-firing appliance with an output rating more than 45 kW or a gas-fired appliance having a net input rating more than 70 kW. Any work associated with a chimney, flue-pipe or constructional hearth {NB, there's a special definition of what constitutes a constructional hearth}.

8. Any work associated with pipework, radiators, convector heaters and thermostatic controls for, or associated with, type 6 above.

9. Any work associated with installing a flue liner.

So there you have it, for what we're doing, I read that as no building warrant required!  :thumbsup:

Of course we'll still have to comply with all the building regs (the relevant sections are 3.17 to 3.22), but unless any of you can point out where I've mis-read, we don't have to wait for a warrant to be issued before we can start, neither do we have to be inspected once we've finished, which is definitely good news.

The other interesting thing is that Hetas don't actually have any legal standing in Scotland:

Quote from: Scottish Building Regs 3.17.4
There are other organisations representing the solid fuel industry but neither they nor HETAS have a mandatory status.

So, when one of the stove shops told me previously that I either needed a warrant or a HETAS inspection, the actual truth is that I actually don't need either, but as a matter of course they issue a HETAS installation certificate with every installation, even though it doesn't actually carry any legal weight in Scotland.

No wonder people are confused eh?  :-\

Womble.
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

lachlanandmarcus

  • Joined Aug 2010
  • Aberdeenshire
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #37 on: July 26, 2013, 07:11:38 am »
Crikey, that's news to me, very interesting !! Thanks Womble!

doganjo

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Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #38 on: July 26, 2013, 09:03:52 am »
Very interesting, David, the only fly in the ointment I can see is that I was told your house insurance becomes invalid if you don't have certification of some sort.  If you had a fire - not necessarily because of the stove, could be an electrical fault - or god forbid a lightning strike - then they wouldn't pay out.

Any thoughts on that folks?
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

happygolucky

  • Joined Jan 2012
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2013, 09:08:48 am »
Jeeeeeeeeeee.....lost indeed, I read this post with interest but we have no intention of putting a stove in this house but may do in our next house......seems so confusing to me and insurance will find loopholes if they can it appears. When we had the home report done we got a specialist in and he came up with one reason for a damp wall, so we got several others in, they each had a different reason and solution....we went with a long established firm in the end and it appears to  have sorted the problem, that's what we will do if we buy a log burner, get a long established firm that's local in, they tend to know the ins and outs!!

philcaegrug

  • Joined Jul 2012
  • ammanford
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2013, 01:25:19 pm »
Just as an add-on to this topic I'm a coal merchant and the government are thinking of introducing an emissions test for new -builds in the next 3 years. At the moment you will not be able to fit a coal -fired system that will pass an emissions test. I don't know about log burners. This will so far only apply to a new house and not to a repair or upgrade in an older dwelling.

doganjo

  • Joined Aug 2012
  • Clackmannanshire
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Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2013, 02:56:40 pm »
Jeeeeeeeeeee.....lost indeed, I read this post with interest but we have no intention of putting a stove in this house but may do in our next house......seems so confusing to me and insurance will find loopholes if they can it appears. When we had the home report done we got a specialist in and he came up with one reason for a damp wall, so we got several others in, they each had a different reason and solution....we went with a long established firm in the end and it appears to  have sorted the problem, that's what we will do if we buy a log burner, get a long established firm that's local in, they tend to know the ins and outs!!
I think that's the problem though, Sandy - as David says the suppliers he contacted didn't know, except the last one.
Always have been, always will be, a WYSIWYG - black is black, white is white - no grey in my life! But I'm mellowing in my old age

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2013, 03:23:44 pm »
Very interesting, David, the only fly in the ointment I can see is that I was told your house insurance becomes invalid if you don't have certification of some sort.

I see what you mean, but we already have two solid fuel systems (an Esse range in the kitchen, and another standard wood burner in the living room) that were installed by the previous residents and I'm sure have no certification. This must be the case with older appliances throughout the country.
 
Now if I were to install something today which is not compliant with building regs then yes of course I'm not going to be covered in the event of a fire. However, if everything's been done according to the regulations, I don't see the problem.
 
One obvious issue is that if your insurer is based in England, you may have a job convincing them that you didn't need the same certificate as somebody living South of the border, but then it is Scottish law that applies in Scotland isn't it?  :-J
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

Womble

  • Joined Mar 2009
  • Stirlingshire, Central Scotland
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2013, 03:28:59 pm »
OK, my curiosity got the better of me, so I called the HETAS helpline, and was told the following:
 
  • HETAS don't have any legal role in Scotland
  • You therefore don't need a HETAS certificate, as it doesn't mean anything in Scotland. {Though you do need to comply with building regs}
  • Some Scottish stove installers do offer a HETAS certificate and some don't. The main reason for going with a HETAS qualified installer is to give you the confidence that they know what they're doing.
They also said that though I didn't need a certificate, I did need a building warrant  ::) . I then said that I had checked, and I was pretty sure I didn't need a warrant for what I'm planning to do. They then said "Oh, that's ok then"  :D
 
Confusion really does reign supreme, doesn't it!!
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 03:31:46 pm by Womble »
"All fungi are edible. Some fungi are only edible once." -Terry Pratchett

chrismahon

  • Joined Dec 2011
  • Gascony, France
Re: Self-install of Wood Burning Stove
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2013, 07:21:09 am »
Don't forget you need to clean the flue as well at least every 12 months or your house insurance is invalid. Over here everyone cleans their own and flue rods and brushes are incredibly cheap. But you need a dated photograph. Alternatively you burn an €8 cleaning log but you need to keep the receipt. Because our wood got damp I did ours 3 times last year.


An external air vent isn't an option on old stone built houses here. They are too fragile to start banging a hole through 2' thick, often dry-bult, limestone wall. The external and internal faces aren't too bad, but the centre is just rubble.

 

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